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Topic: About the recent server compromise (Read 15321 times)

legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1065
June 09, 2015, 08:06:04 PM
I've worked with DoD facilities. They would never pass root passwords to upstream ISPs.
I'm more of a small/middle-business person, so I can better understand the issues faced by small shops renting space in the data center cages.

How does the above DoD example compare with a personal web site for a porn-star/ex-model? How come a woman with incomplete high-school education can be astute enough to understand the issues of who can have access to database of her customers? Granted, she was about 40 y.o. at that time, but certainly wasn't a rocket-science intellect.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
June 09, 2015, 07:31:18 PM
So servers should die with their admins?

My servers are of a personal nature, so yes, I'd rather have the servers die with me than be hacked. For an organization, root passwords can be stored in a secure location, and known by a select few admins. I can see no reason ever for an ISP to have root access (unless of course it's a server with no real value).

I've worked with DoD facilities. They would never pass root passwords to upstream ISPs.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1065
June 09, 2015, 12:41:13 PM
What if an admin dies? Should access to the servers die with him?
Every organization I've seen has disaster recovery procedures. Just follow them. The comments I made earlier about "terminating sysadmins" pertain to terminating those who don't follow them for one reason or the other. It really isn't a computer-science-specific problem, more like general organizational management problem.

With one man shops (like bitcointalk.org) the situation is simplified. Loss of access requires disassembly of the server to reset its password protections. If there was encryption in use, those data are (most likely) irretrievably lost and the server requires reinstallation with the fresh software. The reset/reimage is not something that can be done quickly, surreptitiously or socially-engineered into the normal workflow of the customer service of the data center. I've never heard of anyone successfully performing such an attack, but I've heard of performing similar attack where the goal wasn't to steal the data but to steal the hardware.

I personally wouldn't bother thinking much about it. In all cases that I've seen/experienced the password loss was temporary, i.e. the person recalled/found the proper password after giving it some time. The true loss happened only if there wasn't anything important on the server anyways.

The real, practical danger with one-man shops is not the password loss, but grave mistakes, that corrupt the data on the server without getting noticed.
legendary
Activity: 1761
Merit: 1010
June 09, 2015, 11:07:26 AM
No one ever needs to know the root passwords to my servers. No one. Ever.
To be fair, my wife knows the root passwords on all my machines/servers incase I face an untimely death.

No mommy needed, just a wifey.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 1192
I don't believe in denial.
June 09, 2015, 03:56:56 AM
So servers should die with their admins?
Ha, ha!  I like it!

But seriously, the normal course of action is to terminate sysadmins who are incapable of producing the proper credentials to the equipment they manage. "Termination" doesn't mean "killing", just "firing from employment 'for cause'".

There was an really interesting case of a network sysadmin for San Francisco municipial government that went insane (schizophrenia/paranoia) and refused to disclose passwords to the Cisco equipment which he was supervising. Sorry, I don't have a link handy.

Hehehe, but I meant it literally too...

What if an admin dies? Should access to the servers die with him?

I would argue: no. So - in addition to your "mental illness" example - there are definitely reasons why several people should always know the root passwords to any servers (except of those which are so personal they actually should "die with their admins"... obviously...).
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1065
June 08, 2015, 09:47:44 PM
So servers should die with their admins?
Ha, ha!  I like it!

But seriously, the normal course of action is to terminate sysadmins who are incapable of producing the proper credentials to the equipment they manage. "Termination" doesn't mean "killing", just "firing from employment 'for cause'".

There was an really interesting case of a network sysadmin for San Francisco municipial government that went insane (schizophrenia/paranoia) and refused to disclose passwords to the Cisco equipment which he was supervising. Sorry, I don't have a link handy.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
June 08, 2015, 07:06:40 PM
No one ever needs to know the root passwords to my servers. No one. Ever.
To be fair, my wife knows the root passwords on all my machines/servers incase I face an untimely death.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 1192
I don't believe in denial.
June 08, 2015, 06:54:38 PM
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

LOL! A server admin needs a mommy to reset his password for him? I'm sorry, but if you can't keep your root password safe, you don't deserve to be a server admin. No one ever needs to know the root passwords to my servers. No one. Ever.

So servers should die with their admins?
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
June 08, 2015, 06:38:07 PM
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

LOL! A server admin needs a mommy to reset his password for him? I'm sorry, but if you can't keep your root password safe, you don't deserve to be a server admin. No one ever needs to know the root passwords to my servers. No one. Ever.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1065
June 08, 2015, 01:48:41 PM
I see more ignorant posts being made by idiots in the field of actual computer security, not salesmanship.

not really. social engineering is omnipresent and can happen everywhere. hopefully the new ISP has some stricter quality management and certain processes to prevent it.
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

This type of attack is easily preventable. I'm just going to quote myself again. Further discussion and explanations are available in the parallel threads in this subforum.

Easily preventable on two levels:

1) collocate your own equipment in a remote data center. The customer service staff will simply have no access to it besides being able to press buttons on the box.

2) use non-commodity hardware like Oracle SPARC or IBM POWER or HP Integrity/Itanium.  Then even if they manage to steal it they most likely will not be able to get the data off of it without specialized assistance.

Edit: Also, don't run Linux on those machines, but their native OS: Solaris, AIX, HP/UX respectively.

AGD
legendary
Activity: 2069
Merit: 1164
Keeper of the Private Key
June 08, 2015, 04:47:47 AM
So NFOrce reset the server's root password for him, giving him complete access to the server

Is this normal for ISPs to have the sort of access that allows them to reset any server root password??? That is insane!!!
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

Usually ISPs have contact information, like phone number, home adress, passport scan etc which can easily be used to verify a person. When combined with PGP, whis should be almost 100% safe.

and that's the point. social engineering depends on human error.

My point is, that you can prevent social engineering with a good training of your staff. That money is always good invested, because it gains trust from the customer. Now, after all these hacks that had happened in the past, theymos should have chosen the right ISP with the right policy already a long time ago.

edit:

just an example:

http://www.esecurityplanet.com/views/article.php/3908881/9-Best-Defenses-Against-Social-Engineering-Attacks.htm

Quote

...
 
1. Educate yourself.

"Our first mitigation is security through education," Hadnagy said. "If people aren't educated to the types of attacks being used, then they cannot possibly defend against them."
Social-Engineer.org provides a number of information resources on social engineering attacks. The two most commonly used and effective approaches, or "pretexts," used in the contest were posing as an internal employee or posing as someone hired by corporate to perform an audit or take a survey.
"Contestants used the survey pretext a lot," Hadnagy said. "It allowed them to ask questions that are believable in that context."
Hadnagy noted that employees rarely sought to confirm the pretext with another source, like a manager, before giving away information.

 
2. Be aware of the information you're releasing.

This tip encompasses both verbal communication and social media like Facebook or Twitter. Hadnagy noted that serious social engineers, as opposed to someone participating in a contest for fun, would get deep background on their targets before moving.
"You would know where they live," he said. "You would know whether they're happy or unhappy in their jobs."


3. Determine which of your assets are most valuable to criminals.

Even companies that actively seek to protect themselves from social engineering attacks often focus on protecting the wrong things, according to Jim O'Gorman, a security consultant and member of Social-Engineer.org.
"When a lot of companies focus on protecting their assets, they're very focused on that from the perspective of their business," O'Gorman said. "That's not necessarily the way an attacker will look at your company. They'll look for assets that are valuable to them, assets that they can monetize."
"Information perceived as having no value will not be protected," Social-Engineer.org said in the primary findings of its report. "This is the underlying fact that most social engineering efforts rely upon, as value to an attacker is different than value to an organization. Companies need to consider this when evaluating what to protect, considering more than just the importance of value to the delivery of service, product, or intellectual property."
O'Gorman said an independent assessment is the best tool to determine which of your assets criminals are most likely to target.

 
4. Write a policy and back it up with good awareness training.

Once you know which of your assets are most tempting to criminals and the pretexts they're most likely to use to pursue them, write a security policy for protecting your data assets. Then back up that policy with good awareness training.
"A policy is just a written statement," Hadnagy said. "It doesn't mean anything if people don't follow it."
In the primary findings of its report on the contest, Social-Engineer.org noted, "For awareness training to be truly effective it requires complete coverage of all employees. In many instances contestants would contact call centers, which often do not have as complete of awareness training programs. This translated into information leakage that could have been avoided, as well as significant increase of risk to the target organizations. Demonstration of the ineffectiveness of awareness training was apparent by the lack of employee resistance to answering questions."
Social-Engineer.org believes employees need a clear set of guidelines in place to respond well to a given situation. Absent such guidelines, employees will default to actions they perceive as helpful, which often means giving away information they shouldn't.

 
5. Keep your software up to date.

Hackers using social engineering techniques are often seeking to determine whether you are running unpatched, out-of-date software they can exploit.
"A lot of the information given out really would not be damaging if the target keeps his software up to date," Hadnagy said.
Staying on top of patches and keeping your software updated can mitigate a lot of risk.

 
6. Give employees a sense of ownership when it comes to security

"Security programs in this country are failing miserably," Hadnagy said. "The reason is that they're not personal. They don't make security a personal thing. Employees need to feel a sense of ownership when it comes to security."
O'Gorman added, "I think it's important that employees understand that what applies in the workplace also applies at home. Make it personal to that extent. Changing habits, changing culture is extremely difficult."
Both noted that criminals will not respect boundaries between one's work life and one's personal life, and any personal information obtained from a compromised work computer may also compromise one's personal life.

 
7. When asked for information, consider whether the person you're talking to deserves the information they're asking about.

This is where the rubber meets the road. Whenever you are in a conversation with someone you don't know, before you answer a question they ask, make sure they deserve to know the information that they're asking about.
In most cases, the person you're talking to has no need to know what version of an operating system you're running, or who handles trash collection at your company.
As Hadnagy is fond of pointing out, social engineers know that most people instinctively try hard to be helpful to their fellow human beings when asked. Social engineers leverage that instinct to their advantage. Companies certainly want their employees—especially customer-facing employees—to be friendly and helpful, but they must also temper that helpfulness with restraint.
For instance, an employee in sales wants to be as helpful to a potential customer as possible. But that employee should still make sure that the questions the potential customer is asking are relevant before answering.
"From a sales point of view, it's hard to say that," Hadnagy said. "If you're a sales guy, you don't want to lose that potential sale. You have to determine if the information you're giving out really is relevant to the potential sale."

 
8. Watch for questions that don't fit the pretext.

The last tip leads directly into this one. If a person asks a question that does not fit the persona they present, it should set off alarm bells.
"In a business sense, I think you have to be really aware of questions that do no match the person on the phone," Hadnagy said.
 Additionally, a sudden sense of pressure or urgency is often a sign.
"When you're on the phone with someone, or you're talking to someone, and all of a sudden you feel this pressure to make a decision, to take an action, you have to stop and think where is this pressure coming from? They'll try to put pressure on the target so they don't have time to think about their decision," O'Gorman said. "Don't get caught up in the story that's being told to you. A sense of pressure that shouldn't be there, that's a big red flag."

 
9. Stick to your guns.

If you do get a feeling that someone is fishing for information that they shouldn't, stick to your guns.
"If someone asks for information that you don't know if you should release, ask your manager," Hadnagy said. "Many social engineers will break if off if there's a break in the conversation."
Hadnagy pointed to one call during the contest in which the employee who received the call put up some resistance, but ultimately gave in to the social engineer's persistence.
"The employee actually had a pretty good sense," Hadnagy said. "Three times, he said, ‘our corporate policy is that you e-mail these questions, and we answer them together as a team.’ That whole phone call would have failed from a social engineering standpoint if that employee had stuck to his guns."

 

Thor Olavsrud is a contributor to eSecurityPlanet.com and a former senior editor at InternetNews.com. He covers operating systems, standards and security, among other technologies.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
June 08, 2015, 04:18:55 AM
So NFOrce reset the server's root password for him, giving him complete access to the server

Is this normal for ISPs to have the sort of access that allows them to reset any server root password??? That is insane!!!
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

Usually ISPs have contact information, like phone number, home adress, passport scan etc which can easily be used to verify a person. When combined with PGP, whis should be almost 100% safe.

and that's the point. social engineering depends on human error.
AGD
legendary
Activity: 2069
Merit: 1164
Keeper of the Private Key
June 08, 2015, 04:02:54 AM
So NFOrce reset the server's root password for him, giving him complete access to the server

Is this normal for ISPs to have the sort of access that allows them to reset any server root password??? That is insane!!!
No, it is not. What would happen if theymos actually forgot his password and they couldn't reset it?
You can't prevent social engineering, no matter what you do.

Usually ISPs have contact information, like phone number, home adress, passport scan etc which can easily be used to verify a person. When combined with PGP, whis should be almost 100% safe.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
June 08, 2015, 03:08:38 AM
So NFOrce reset the server's root password for him, giving him complete access to the server

Is this normal for ISPs to have the sort of access that allows them to reset any server root password??? That is insane!!!
Update 2:
It is normal. Stop quoting this post.

Update: You've just presented an example how this attack could have been avoided. This attack is just one (1) way of doing social engineering. It can't be prevented, because everything can be hacked.
Because of your nonsense, you are now put in the same group as BADecker. Have a nice day.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
June 07, 2015, 08:21:35 PM
So NFOrce reset the server's root password for him, giving him complete access to the server

Is this normal for ISPs to have the sort of access that allows them to reset any server root password??? That is insane!!!
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
June 07, 2015, 03:54:45 AM
How many times is this place going to get hacked and beat up? Now on two years saying the forum SW will be updated from the thousands and thousands of dollars in donations. Are we all missing something? Jesus, even try discourse if you have to.


This time was not forum's fault, but ISP's fault. At least is what theymos says.

And thheymos changed ISP, he said, so I guess the odds of another attack of same kind are lowered

not really. social engineering is omnipresent and can happen everywhere. hopefully the new ISP has some stricter quality management and certain processes to prevent it.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
June 07, 2015, 02:43:32 AM
How many times is this place going to get hacked and beat up? Now on two years saying the forum SW will be updated from the thousands and thousands of dollars in donations. Are we all missing something? Jesus, even try discourse if you have to.


This time was not forum's fault, but ISP's fault. At least is what theymos says.

And thheymos changed ISP, he said, so I guess the odds of another attack of same kind are lowered
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000
Personal text my ass....
June 07, 2015, 02:35:17 AM
How many times is this place going to get hacked and beat up? Now on two years saying the forum SW will be updated from the thousands and thousands of dollars in donations. Are we all missing something? Jesus, even try discourse if you have to.
administrator
Activity: 5166
Merit: 12850
June 02, 2015, 02:05:59 PM
Automatic unproxybans are enabled again.
legendary
Activity: 1761
Merit: 1010
June 02, 2015, 09:05:52 AM
why reject them ??
Probably due to the fact that the site has sent out thousands of mails within a short period of time, due to the recent compromise.

That would make sense it must have triggered some spam filter and ended up on hotmails block list
Guess it might fix itself sooner or later

Yeah, I've just started to get e-mail notifications again in my Hotmail account.
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