Topic: Accusation against Zazarb (escrow) for misconduct (Dropped) (Read 603 times)

Cross posting:

A signed message from either addresses is required before doing anything.

I am dropping this accusation because I think the quality of this forum has deteriorated irrecoverably. You made me understand this. Changing subject to "Fake Accusation against Zazarb (escrow)","you started at BTC 6.0 then raised the stakes to BTC 8.0", quoting a lending thread for terms of escrow, "How many versions of just BitCoin core have there been in the last four years? How many haircuts have you had?", "it looks like post #2 by @Yoshi sums it up nicely" without checking who the OP of the lending thread is, "extortion", "Did you tell anyone you would be gone for four years?"

Most of the best escrows and members here have left. It is very clear to see most of the members who have run escrow services themselves including Quickseller, don't consider this acceptable/ethical. But, I think the majority opinion here is this incident does not warrant a scam accusation and no one tells me why that is.

You can call it demand. I demanded unreasonable interest on money owed to me. You don't know what escrow is and you don't know what extortion is.
Quit your trolling.

IIRC you started at BTC 6.0 then raised the stakes to BTC 8.0 both of which are manifestly absurd amounts to be asking.  (Perhaps your Knight in shining armour Quickseller can explain to you the concept of extortion.)

TBH I wasn't serious when I said that. He was refusing to pay $95 and I thought that was ridiculous. I am certain no one in the right mind will pay 8 BTC and both of us knew that. You can see I dropped it the same day when I found some were taking it way too seriously than I intended. I was in no position to make demands, considering it was Zazarb who was holding the funds. I have apologized to Zazarb in private message for the post. I haven't received a reply.

I have agreed with Zazarb that if I don't sign the bitcoin address within a month from now, he can do whatever he want with it. I have dropped this scam accusation.

I would be leaning to believe the OP if not for the ridiculous demand to pay 8 BTC for signing a message... You can either sign it or not.

These posts were made before Zazarb agreed to escrow. Zazarb did not explicitly state anything except for confirming the escrow address as a PGP signed message. I think it is clear that Zazarb was to hold funds until I either confirm the repayment address or provide a new one.

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Where was that? The OP is doing a really shitty job presenting this case. I couldn't find what the original instructions were for releasing the escrowed funds.

@Csmiami I am aware you think I hacked this account. I said you don't give me benefit of the doubt because you are asking me to prove that I own this account without providing evidence that my account is hacked. You are not asking Zazarb to prove anything. You are leaving feedback based on a speculation. Tell me what reason does Zazarb has to refuse to pay to original repayment address?



There are 323 transactions in the escrow address. What were you using it for? Why did you move the money?

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I am dropping this accusation, but I will keep the thread unlocked. I think some people here are worse than I accused you of.

You can't pull this off in real life. Next time, don't do it like this.

Your past feedback was for some multi-accounting stuff. That has literally nothing to do with the escrow situation here. I have not given you the benefit of the doubt, because after a 4 year inactivity period you refuse to sign a message to verify your identity, and tried to extort the escrow into releasing the funds with the following nonsense:

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Funny you say that in the same post you say that you can't sign a message... I may not know if you are lying or not, but signatures don't lie; so that's kind of the point


These 2 contradictory statements make me think that you are not in control of that address.

You can prove that your funds have been used for my lending service? At the 2017, my loan portfolio was up 10-15BTC, the amount re-reserved for that purpose is even higher
How your 0.01BTC can help me? What purpose to use it? it was a useless balance that only ate a transaction fee when moving from one address to other.

Would you do it if the funds were transferred to you without a question? Or in that case i would be the best escrow service regardless of that fund was moved?

Rather, this proves that those three accounts linked to me in 2014 are not my alts. If I was active last year, why would I ask Zazarb to release escrow now? Besides, aren't you agreeing with me that I didn't hack this account?

What I said is the truth.

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@Zazarb, do you agree or disagree that you are liable and will send escrowed amount/loan/collateral amount again if the recipient signs a staked address and claims his account was hacked at the time and the address you sent to is lost?



Yes. IMO, it is more than unethical if the agreement implies the escrow should keep it untouched in the bitcoin address/account. Greedy and unethical applies if you are talking about agreements between friends and family.

I don't understand why it's necessary that I verify I lent the money, when the escrow can send the money to repayment address before my account was supposedly hacked.

To be fair, this was rather unexpected. Gkv9 was supposed to send it to the repayment address. Before I forgot about it, I thought gkv9 never sent the payment. I didn't stake an address in the Meta thread or link PGP key to bitcointalk account.

I don't understand what reason Zazarb has to withhold escrow. I don't understand why many of you considers this OK. I don't think scaring away people from using escrow is the right approach.

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Thank you. This is the real Watoshi Dimobuto and the coins won't be burned.

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You are always giving the benefit of the doubt to Zazarb, but not to me. You already decided your position based on our trust feedbacks before you read OP.

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You are free to open multiple scam accusations threads :
Watoshi-Dimobuto's alt scammed $15 in 2015.
Watoshi-Dimobuto can't sign bitcoin address. His account is hacked
Watoshi-Dimobuto reposted one post OMG!  
What else?

Watoshi-Dimobuto is attempting to extort BTC 8.5 from Zazarb https://archive.vn/NmiyA#selection-5409.0-5413.20
You really left feedback for that? LOL That is overkilling it

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• I didn't hack this account
• I have never defaulted on loans
• I am not an extortionist
• Watoshi, Zorrocoin, searle421 are not my alts
• I admit to reposting

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Zazarb posted this in a locked thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.17106366


I'd just like to know how Watoshi-Dimobuto can say with a straight face that he's been away for four years, got boared ... drifted away when two of his alts were still active last year:

Well, the whole situation is a mess, so I wouldn't blame you for that, lol.

Putting it simply, for what I've understood so far:

- 4 years ago a loan took place, whatever happened there, zarzarb ended up escrowing 0.01BTC for Watoshi-Dimobuto. (I have snipped the whole original Loan, because it's not really relevant here)
- Zarzarb offered to use a monitored address
- Fast forward 4 years, OP comes back to the forum and wants to have those funds released
- Somewhere in between (2017), the funds were moved to another address, there is no explanation so far about this
- Zarzarb requests a signed message to prove that it's the original owner
- OP has been saying it'd be too much effort to sign messages, and considered zarzarb was taking those funds as a loan and ask for an almost 8.5BTC repayment (lol)
- It's been suggested that the original repayment address is used to release the funds, OP agrees, but that brings a question up: If he has access to that address, why doesn't he sign a message?

I think that is pretty much the current situation. I have not mentioned the thread Lauda created, because I didn't catch it on time, now it's locked, and I don't think that anything different from what has been said here was said.

The only thing that is questionable here is the fact of the funds changing address when it was a clearly "monitored" one; but from there, to using that funds on his personal lending thread as OP suggests, there quite some space

QS is correct here IMO..
Escrow funds should be released to the original repayment address..

If it is not the real Watoshi, and the coins get burnt because the real Watoshi lost access to the original repayment address, then it is the real Watoshi's fault for letting his account get hacked, and losing access to the repayment address in the contract..

Should not need proof of identity to release funds to the original repayment address because their was no clause in the escrow contract for proof of identity for doing so..

The escrow contract basically said that the Watoshi account will ask for escrow to be released to the original repayment address, and now the Watoshi account is doing exactly that..

Moving the funds from the escrow address, after the contract explicitly stated the funds were not to be moved, also looks not so great..
Doesn't matter if it's been 1 year or 10 years, old keys still work fine..

It is also completely understandable that one could receive coins to an address but not be able to sign a message from it, like any exchange account or many 3rd party services..

All this over 0.01BTC..

This is not correct and I have crossed it out.  You seem to want to deflect by twisting my words and avoiding the obvious such as you are unwilling, or unable to prove (with a signed message) you're the same person that made arrangements with Zazarb.

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Did you tell anyone you would be gone for four years?  


No you did not.

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Quickseller, your skills as an Escrow are questionable.

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As others have noted, the OP, Watoshi-Dimobuto, does not seem to want to negotiate in good faith, rather outright attempt to discredit Zazarb. Watoshi-Dimobuto says they should negotiate in private, however one of Zazarb's corner stones is to negotiate in public, so that goes against the grain of Watoshi-Dimobuto claiming they had an agreement (ie Watoshi-Dimobuto is breaking that agreement).

The earliest archived version of Zazarb's OP https://archive.vn/2WhFv#selection-751.4-751.69 is dated 25 Aug 2017 07:41:39 UTC clearly states:


I've highlighted the relevant items Negotiations only in public, and Terms can change at any time, but wont affect running deals.

Do you concede that "getting bored and walking away from the forum" that you were also walking away from the arrangement you had with Zazarb?

I would say definitely not.  If you're escrowing a transaction, the only thing you should do with the funds is to keep them safe and distribute them fairly upon completion of the transaction between the parties involved.  Using escrowed funds for loans or investing them to make a profit is greedy at best and unethical at worst.

I'm trying to follow exactly what went on with this situation, but my befuddled brain isn't taking it all in.  One thing I do understand is that OP doesn't seem to understand why it's important that he verify he is who he says he is--and it's NOT off-topic to this thread to discuss that.

zazarb assumed gkv9 obligations to repay the interest amount due on gkv9 in exchange for a payment of equal amount plus the fee zazarb charged. Zazarb also explicitly agreed to not move the bitcoin he was holding on behalf of gkv9.

It appears zazarb has commingled the bitcoin he was holding with his own personal bitcoin. This is not good and is something I would consider if someone asked to use zazarb as an escrow agent in a transaction I was a part of.

I also don’t see any basis for withholding the bitcoin to the OP. The repayment address remains unchanged and the basis for gkv9 not sending the interest payment to the OP directly was that there might be a question if the transaction was actually from gkv9 for the purpose of paying the interest or was from someone else.

The majority of the world has travel restrictions imposed so it is not entirely unexpected the OP cannot provide a signed message. The OP also never agreed to provide a signed message as a condition of receiving payment. The majority of the world also is experiencing financial stress currently so it would be expected for those who are owed money to make attempts to recover payment.

I think it would have been most appropriate to send the bitcoin to the OP in 2016, but given this didn’t happen, it should be released to him immediately. This is regardless of any speculation that the OP is a hacked account.

If zazarb or anyone else has evidence that is not speculation that the person who is owed the .01 doesn’t wish to receive the payment to the original repayment address he is now requesting payment to be sent to, he should present it immediately.

You don't know the difference between a borrower and an escrow agent.


Zazarb took an unauthorized loan from escrowed funds. It is interesting to see that you encourage it.




These are some terrible excuses.

When you put money into a bank account do you tell the teller, or bank manager that they are not to use your fiat money for any other purpose other than to give back to you when you want to withdraw it?  Does that mean you have a special ATM pre-loaded with only your own funds that no-one else is permitted to withdraw?


How many versions of just BitCoin core have there been in the last four years?  We've had *two* halvings of the block payout, segwit has been introduced.  Was ERC20 even a thing four years ago?  Or the Lightning Network for that matter.  How many exchanges have come and gone in that time?  Cryptopia's whole history occurred in that time.  People who created accounts four years ago are probably Legendary by now.

How much are you squabbling over?  What's it worth now Vs. then?

Where were you four years ago?  How many haircuts have you had?

...and you want to complain Zazarb had no guidance from you in the four years you were absent?

Really?

If you are real watoshi ,you chose the wrong way to return to the forum, you are wasting energy and time in the wrong direction.Your current actions only increase suspicions.
You messaged me after 3-4 years and received respond from me in the same day in a few hours, I never refused to fulfill an obligation, but I will not follow the instruction of a random man until he confirms the identities(proof that is same person who gave loan)

The accusation you make here is absurd, issued amount stored in my wallet was just dust,  I did not receive any fee for this service(if I understood correctly  gkv9 even did not send me required tx fee),

It is standard practice to create a new bitcoin address for a new escrow agreement.

If the escrow agent wants to change the address, he can do so by updating the new address in the thread and signing it with his PGP key.

The escrow should try to reach out to the recipient. I have received zero private messages from zazark in my lifetime.

I mean it when I say this is the worst service I ever received from an escrow.

I know that's the address; but the only thing we can see there is that it was emptied in 2017. I think I recall zarzarb saying he used that address for different escrow deals/trades, so that could explain the volume of transactions.

Why did he move the funds? Only he can answer that, but it could be something as simple as a change from a desktop wallet to a hardware wallet, a firmware update.... I'm not saying he didn't use the funds for his own benefit, I'm just pointing out that there is nothing suggesting that, at least based on my criteria

Hypothetically speaking if Watoshi-Dimobuto a reputed escrow agent uses escrow funds of 10BTC to lend out without permission, as long as the person who entered into contract with him is not aware of it and the agent pays up in the end, we can turn a blind eye and his reputation is unaffected. Is that it?




This is the escrow address.
https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/13onqzPnGzazarbReooW4sBkqEgKPoMwZV

This is without a doubt the worst service I ever received from an escrow.

But there is no hard evidence suggesting zarzarb used those funds on his lending service. He could have moved them because he changed his wallet, to update the wallet onto a Segwit one.... or he could have moved to another address which has many movements and the funds remain unnoticed, but are still there. He can't really know what happened, and as long as the funds are still somewhere, I see no issue with them being moved a couple of years later.

If he did use said funds to finance his lending service? Well, that'd be really unethical; but there's nothing actually suggesting that (or I'm not seeing it).

Probably not. He should have kept it in a separate address if he needed to move it. I just don't think zazarb is in breach of contract with you since you don't have a contract with him. If gkv9 made a contract that's unfavorable to you (e.g. by not specifying terms of repayment) that's hardly zazarb's fault.

The agreement was made in the thread. There should be no private agreement between gkv9 and zazarb contradicting the agreement posted in the thread. He agreed to keep the outstanding amount in the monitoring address.

Do you consider it OK to give loans out of escrowed funds?

You were not around when the agreement with the escrow was made and you were not around to give the permission when zazarb moved the funds. Given the timeframes involved things may change. You're unable to access your old address yourself. Zazarb at least kept the funds and still has access to them.

Off-topic. But, yes. When you are relying on outdated connections to give feedbacks some of them can be undeserving.


Off-topic

Please open a new thread if you are accusing me.

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Just to be clear, I am not accusing Zazarb to force him into releasing escrow. He won't anyway. I honestly think this is not how escrows are supposed to work. Please don't consider this thread as an extension of the lending section thread.

The subject of this scam accusation is misconduct and breach of contract by Zazarb.

Is using escrow funds to give loans to others without permission OK?

He is not; you can't expect to come back 4 years later, not verify yourself; accuse the escrow of stealing the funds, and think that everyone will nod to that without making any questions and checking your every move looking for indicators of the account being stolen/sold.

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Looks like you deleted the part in which "users like me have made you pay for other's loans...." so who are those "users like me", and what loans have they made you repay that weren't yours? Was that with an alt account?

What kind of explanation?
I was busy. I did check the thread one or two months after I left. After that I forgot about the loan and stopped visiting this forum entirely. I am glad I left. The members I knew left this place long ago.

If you think I hacked this account, give some evidence. Don't derail this thread. You can discuss further in the lending thread or open a new thread in scam accusation to discuss it.


You are trolling this thread.


I deleted the post.

Given you're Trolling of the Known Alts thread just now, I'd say there might be something in it given you don't seem willing to provide proof (signed message) to back up your claim.

Yep - found it https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.17096873 (although that's not the post /she was referring to)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zarzab pointed out that he had a defaulted loan on his trust feedback, and that the escrowed funds should go to the creditor of that loan. AFAIK, the connection between his account and the one taking the loan was made on that thread, so I'd bet that's the reason

Why exactly is the OP @Watoshi-Dimobuto now Trolling my Known Alts thread?  What do you hope to achieve?


You could also explain why you have come back after a four year absence (or are you a hacker and therefore can't provide a signed message as requested?)

Funny I haven't seen this ultimatum posted here....


I must say; sending the funds to the original repayment address, event if the coins may get burnt, should be the optimal result, because it should be in control of OP. But, if that address is in control of OP, there is nothing stopping him from signing the message, so we're cricling back to the same point...

It's also true that it may seem odd that zarzab moved the funds of a monitored address, but the reasons for doing so can be a lot, so it's not really a valid point after 4 years.
Easiest solution? Sign the damm message like you were told 4 days (i think) ago and end this agony at once

I did ask Zazarb to donate the amount. Aside from that I have every intention of receiving the 0.01BTC owed to me.


I updated the post above.

Yoshi is talking about negative feedback Lauda left on my profile.
OP of the loan thread is gkv9. I didn't reset my account password. Joel_Jantsen posts that gkv9's password was reset recently and doesn't seem to have a good repayment history.

Both the posts are unrelated to this thread.

Your link doesn't show a "refusal" by anyone.

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Perhaps you didn't notice this:

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I tend not to watch Lauda defecate in public.  Besides, this is the actual "scam accusation".

(am scroll/reading the LaudaM defecation thread and it looks like post #2 by @Yoshi sums it up nicely as does @Joel_Jantsen's post #2 in the original loan thread that has been referenced:

This has been going on for days now, I think there is some catching up to do for you... This whole issue has turned to a shit show.

From what I can conclude, Watoshi has some valid arguments, but AFAICT doesn't have access to any of those said addresses, but would rather the coins go to waste in either of those old addresses than ending up with Zazarb. Zazarb, on the other hand have made reasonable points too, but It all comes down to who is willing to be less-stubborn.

Escrow refuses to release funds to both the address I provided now and the address I provided in 2016 when I lend gkv9.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54454485 (Updated link. There are two other posts where he gives excuses like this.)


I lend gkv9 0.05BTC as one of three lenders. He paid back the principal. I increased the interest from 0.001BTC to 0.01BTC as a repayment for a previous adjusted loan before I left. After a few months, gkv9 deposited the interest funds to escrow to repay me when I come back online.



I was bored of the forum. When I came back last time, I tried to join a few signature campaigns and was rejected because of general inactivity.

Just so we are clear, are you talking about transactions that occurred three or four years ago?  Are they ongoing issues?  If not, why the delay in reporting this?  (and if he's using the funds elsewhere, what is the issues with him returning funds to you from other sources?

Can you outline what the original agreement was etc in your own words in a one paragraph walk through of who's funds, what the purpose of their being in escrow that sort of thing.

I also note you woke up five days ago - where have you been between the 15 May 2016, 23:37:29 and 15 May 2020, 02:58:14 (four years to the day no less) when you posted this:

What happened: Zazarb moved funds from escrow address after explicitly agreeing to keep the escrow funds in the monitoring address. He then proceeded to use the escrow funds in his high-interest lending business to lend out and earn interest without the consent of either party. He ignored my request to move the escrow funds back to the address. Zazarb is refusing to release escrow to my current address as well as the repayment address agreed to between the parties.  

Scammers Profile Link: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/zazarb-369212

Reference Link: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/urgent-need-02-btc-loan-repaid-1318061
Amount Scammed: 0.01BTC
Payment Method: Bitcoin

Additional Notes:

zazarb agrees to not move funds:

Quote A

Quote B:

zazarb moves escrow funds on 2017-06-21:

Escrow address : https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/13onqzPnGzazarbReooW4sBkqEgKPoMwZV

Balance history : https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/13onqzPnGzazarbReooW4sBkqEgKPoMwZV-full

Timeline :

2016-01-12
I give loan
2016-02-17
gkv9 repays principal (36 days)
2016-09-27
gkv9 repays interest to escrow zazarb (223 days)
2017-06-21
zazarb starts to lend out escrow funds (267 days)

zazarb was fully aware of my inactivity for around 200 days when he explicitly agreed to keep an outstanding balance of 0.01BTC in the escrow address. He violated the agreement within 267 days.


zazarb uses escrow funds to lend out and earn interest :

zazarb's lending services : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/zazarbs-quick-loans-escrow-1161170


Ignores request to move the escrow funds back.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54450284

Refuses to release escrow to original repayment address unedited and quoted in the opening post of lending thread

Quote C :

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54456532


Other notes :
Reputation thread Watoshi-Dimobuto v. zazarb/Lauda https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/watoshi-dimobuto-v-zazarblauda-5249117
LaudaM has no direct connection to this scam accusation. My private messages to LaudaM ware about reconsidering trust feedback on my profile for loan default of 0.06 BTC ($15 on the date) by Watoshi. This was after the same person defaulted on another loan after giving this account as collateral. I did not break any forum rules, default loans, scam anyone or hack this account.

I strongly believe zazarb's conduct as escrow is terrible and he should pay reasonable damages and be banned from acting as an escrow. Tolerating this kind of behavior would mean escrows can gamble with escrow funds and all will be forgiven as long as the escrow agent pays it back in the end. Escrows must not put escrow funds at risk. Zazarb not only violated this principle, he used the escrowed funds as an interest-free collateral-free unauthorized loan, and lent them out at his discretion.