All you need to know about the "mysterious" passphrase (Questions/answers)

Saint-loup

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Hello,

I've read a lot about the passphrase. I think I understood globally that from the seed, you can create different wallets. If you add a passphrase, it becomes a new wallet.

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

Thank you.

No it won't be the same wallet because adding a passphrase will generate a new Master private key, and all keys derived from it won't be the same anymore thus.
For your second question, I would say yes, it's a very good idea, because if you want to bequeath a wallet as a legacy to them after your death, it's easy to leave the passphrase in your will at a notary, a family member, or into a scheduled mail and the seed in a place available to them at home. It would allow you to change your seed whenever you want without having to change your will, because you would be able to use the same passphrase for the new wallet. And it's safe because no one can guess a seed from its passphrase.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Becassine on April 28, 2023, 04:11:41 PM

This is definitely a good idea! and a different passphrase depending on their interest for example.

It doesn't have to be based on their interests, it can be any random combination of words and it's better to be more complex to avoid brute force attacks.
I forgot to mention that smart thing is to create one or more decoy accounts, that can hold small amount of coins, as protection from losing all your coins from attackers.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 04:23:32 PM

That's my problem: so you have to create the wallet and the passphrase at the same time? if we add a passphrase to an already existing wallet, then it is no longer the same. Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Hope this is digestible enough:
Your "HD" (Hierarchical Deterministic) wallet's private keys are all derived from a single "seed"
which is derived from your "seed phrase" plus the 'salt' "mnemonic" (if you didn't set one).

(don't be confused with "seed" and "seed phrase", the latter is your 12/24 words while the former is the initial entropy where your master key is derive from)

So, setting a 'BIP39 Passphrase' will extend the default passphrase 'mnemonic' which will change the resulting 'seed'.
And with that, a different 'seed' would derive a different set of private keys->public keys->addresses, thus an entirely different wallet.

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

I've read a lot about the passphrase.

This may be far-fetched but: The phrase in the title "this mysterious passphrase" also had me thinking that you may be talking about a bare passphrase without a seed phrase.
Because that may be the old "Brainwallet" which is a private key straight from the SHA256 hash of that passphrase.
Here's one example generator (only use it for testing purposes): https://brainwalletx.github.io/#generator

Becassine

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Quote from: dkbit98 on April 28, 2023, 03:52:57 PM

Yeah, if you have several kids good idea so to give both of them same seed phrases but with different passphrases to each of them.
You can even give them access to both shared BTC and separate in each account.

This is definitely a good idea! and a different passphrase depending on their interest for example.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

Passphrase acts like a salt, so it's totally new wallet account that can generate multiple addresses, but it works only as extension to original wallet seed phrase.
It is recommended to write your passphrases, because if you forget them you will lose all your coins, and try to make them unique and strong enough.

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

Yeah, if you have several kids good idea so to give both of them same seed phrases but with different passphrases to each of them.
You can even give them access to both shared BTC and separate in each account.

Stalker22

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Quote from: Becassine on April 26, 2023, 05:16:56 PM

By installing sparrow wallet, I understood better because it asks immediately if I want to create a passphrase. So I conclude that the passphrase must be created at the same time as the mnemonic phrase with the words BIP39. In the bitbox, it asks if you want to add a passphrase after creating the wallet, that's why everything was so confusing. Thank you for your help

Oh, I see now where the confusion comes from.

BitBox (and some other hardware wallets) add extra security to your bitcoins.

Here is how it works:
You generate one wallet using only a seed (mnemonic) phrase, and put a small amount of bitcoins on it.
Then, you add a security passphrase, and generate a new wallet with different addresses where you store the resto of your bitcoins.

If you ever lose your seed phrase and someone finds it, they will only be able to access the small amount of bitcoins in the first wallet. They will not know about the second wallet that requires a security passphrase. It is like carrying a little bit of money in your pocket and hiding most of it in your shoe. Wink

That is why it is important to store the passphrase in a different place than the seed phrase.

F2b

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For your first question, the previous answer by witcher_sense sums it up quite well imo.

Now for your second question, it really depends on what you want to do. When you say "leave it to your kids" --> when, and in which way? Is it now or in the future, for example?
If it's now, then you can explain them how it works, it probably wouldn't be a problem. If you want the wallet to be passed on later though, a passphrase can be a problem if they don't know about it.
So it's kinda hard to answer this question, and that's probably why some members gave relatively complex answers (suggesting multisignature wallets for example) based on their own interpretation.

Of course, whatever you do, you should keep a backup of everything yourself.

Yaunfitda

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Hello,

I've read a lot about the passphrase. I think I understood globally that from the seed, you can create different wallets. If you add a passphrase, it becomes a new wallet.

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

You will have a new wallet if you extend or add a passphrase, hence, the passphrase is called "Salt".

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

Thank you.

For me private keys, mnemonic phrase whether 12 or 24 seeds are already enough. And as far as I know, Electrum for example provides 132 bits of entropy. Perhaps the best method is to create a multi-sig wallet for you and for your kids or even your wife.

witcher_sense

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

I've read a lot about the passphrase. I think I understood globally that from the seed, you can create different wallets. If you add a passphrase, it becomes a new wallet.

Let us clarify. From a single seed phrase (assuming it is 12-24 english words with no additions) you can create only one wallet, albeit containing incalculable number of possible private keys and addresses. All these keys and addresses are related to each other because they all were derived from a common ancestor that in turn was derived from your generated seed phrase...

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

...When you add a passphrase to your existing seed, you essentially create a completely different ancestor for your keys and addresses, which results in derivation of another set of keys, unrelated to your previous one. Your hardware wallet or mobile wallet usually stores the initial seed in memory to derive receiving addresses and private keys. On the other hand, a passphrase is never stored on the device, your wallet generates all required information the moment you insert your passphrase.

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

It is okay as long as you make backups of sensitive information. Another thing you need to know about a passphrase is that unlike password, it can't be "incorrect": your wallet doesn't verify the information you feed it, that is, it will accept any passphrase without yelling at you, but "wrong" ones will not contain any funds, obviously.

Luffygroove

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To address your first inquiry, yes, a passphrase added to an existing wallet does in fact result in a new wallet being created. The private keys and public addresses associated with this new wallet will be different. It's like having a locksmith with a master key who can make any kind of lock. Different wallets (locks) use the same master key (seed).

To answer your second question: yes, a passphrase added to a wallet can increase its security. Adding a passphrase to your wallet before leaving it to your children is a sensible precaution to take. The cash will be inaccessible, however, if the passphrase is lost or forgotten. Keep a copy of your password in a secure location.

tranthidung

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

I think I understood globally that from the seed, you can create different wallets. If you add a passphrase, it becomes a new wallet.

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added?

Let me give you an example, with Electrum wallet.

When you create a wallet with Electrum wallet software, you can create it without extended seed or with extended seed (for a single signature wallet in this example).

After you click on creating a new wallet, you will have an Option button, click on it, you will see "Extend this seed with custom words". You have to type your extended seed with word is from the list

bip39 english wordlist: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt
BIP 39 Mediawiki: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki

Then you have to confirm your wallet seed, the extended seed, and the wallet will be created.

Now, it's time for you to practice Recovering a wallet (without your extended seed), you will see that two wallets give you two different receiving address lists.

If you are still curious, you can repeat the Restore process with your default seed and a new extended seed, then you will have a third different wallet.

Quote

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

You ask the wrong question and the better one should be

Should you give a Bitcoin wallet to your children when they have yet matured?
If you believe they are matured already, and they have enough awareness to manage capital, finance and their life well, you can give them your wallet seed, backups, etc. After you teach them basic steps to import, recover a wallet. With or without extended seeds is not important, if they can secure their wallet and backup well.

Becassine

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Quote from: Stalker22 on April 26, 2023, 04:06:31 PM

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Stalker22 on April 25, 2023, 04:12:23 PM

For example, if you add a passphrase to an existing wallet, it will no longer be the same wallet, and the addresses in it will be different.

That's my problem: so you have to create the wallet and the passphrase at the same time? if we add a passphrase to an already existing wallet, then it is no longer the same. Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Why is that a problem for you? To be clear, are we really talking about the BIP39 passphrase here, and not the password you want to additionally secure your wallet with? It is important to distinguish between the two.

Adding a passphrase to your 24 words creates a whole new seed, which means all your accounts will have different addresses. The passphrase is like a bonus 25th word. It is an advanced feature, so only use it if you really know what you are doing. If you are not sure, just skip it.

By installing sparrow wallet, I understood better because it asks immediately if I want to create a passphrase. So I conclude that the passphrase must be created at the same time as the mnemonic phrase with the words BIP39. In the bitbox, it asks if you want to add a passphrase after creating the wallet, that's why everything was so confusing. Thank you for your help

Stalker22

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Stalker22 on April 25, 2023, 04:12:23 PM

For example, if you add a passphrase to an existing wallet, it will no longer be the same wallet, and the addresses in it will be different.

That's my problem: so you have to create the wallet and the passphrase at the same time? if we add a passphrase to an already existing wallet, then it is no longer the same. Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Why is that a problem for you? To be clear, are we really talking about the BIP39 passphrase here, and not the password you want to additionally secure your wallet with? It is important to distinguish between the two.

Adding a passphrase to your 24 words creates a whole new seed, which means all your accounts will have different addresses. The passphrase is like a bonus 25th word. It is an advanced feature, so only use it if you really know what you are doing. If you are not sure, just skip it.

Becassine

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Thank you very much for your answers but I must admit I'm more lost than before Undecided

lionheart78

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Stalker22 on April 25, 2023, 04:12:23 PM

For example, if you add a passphrase to an existing wallet, it will no longer be the same wallet, and the addresses in it will be different.

That's my problem: so you have to create the wallet and the passphrase at the same time? if we add a passphrase to an already existing wallet, then it is no longer the same. Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Why not get the private key of the address that has the fund? With private key, you can single out any addresses and integrate it into another wallet without any problem with the passphrase. If you are worry about the wallet generating other addresses when a passphrase is added, then the private key will nullify it even if you put different passphrase upon integrating the private key to a wallet.

Since we are discussing something that you wanted to pass to your kids, why not extract the private key of the BTC address, and encrypt it? This way you don't have to worry about new passphrase producing new addresses.

Quote

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

It is obvious that it is important to add layers of security to your funding wallet. So yeah it is better to add passphrase. This should not be a problem if your kids know the passphrase when you give it to them.

Zoomic

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Hello,

I've read a lot about the passphrase. I think I understood globally that from the seed, you can create different wallets. If you add a passphrase, it becomes a new wallet.

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

Passphrase is optional and it is recommended for only experienced users so that you won't lose your coins.
I do not recommend it for you since you are talking about kids. Everything could till work well without passphrase. Its importance is in the case that you expose your seed phrase to another person, they cannot be able to spend your coin.
But instead of the huddles of the passphrase, I have an idea for you. Read below!

Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

Second question: if you have a wallet to do DCA and leave it to your kids, is it better to add a passphrase or not?

Thank you.

Since you want to do DCA for your kids which I assume will be a very long investment. Why not use the SegWit wallet and make a signature of 2 of 3 or as you may wish. By this method the signatory of two would be needed to spend a coin. Even if you expose the seed phrase of one, out of the three, your coins will still be safe.

This will also help you to transfer the funds successfully to your kids when they are of age. As they grow to age you can make your kids signatory to 2 out of the 3 wallets and be the signatory of one. This is a fine idea of joint account and transfer of coins. In the case that you die, your kids will still have access to the coins in the SegWit wallet.

Becassine

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Quote from: Stalker22 on April 25, 2023, 04:12:23 PM

For example, if you add a passphrase to an existing wallet, it will no longer be the same wallet, and the addresses in it will be different.

That's my problem: so you have to create the wallet and the passphrase at the same time? if we add a passphrase to an already existing wallet, then it is no longer the same. Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Stalker22

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Quote from: Becassine on April 25, 2023, 02:57:19 PM

My first question is: if I have a wallet and I have the possibility to add a passphrase, do I create a new wallet or is it the same wallet with a passphrase added? (I don't know if this is too clear, probably because this step is not too clear in my mind either).

I assume you are talking about BIP39 Passphrase?

The BIP39 passphrase is not mandatory and is completely optional. This means that you can generate a wallet using just a 12/24-word seed phrase, with or without adding an additional passphrase. However, it's important to note that each unique passphrase will result in a new wallet with a different set of private/public keys. For example, if you add a passphrase to an existing wallet, it will no longer be the same wallet, and the addresses in it will be different.

Becassine

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 25, 2023, 03:07:58 PM

So far your children have the knowledge about it, it is not a bad idea.

I feel like my kids think I'm forever and they don't really want me to show them my "experiences" with bitcoin.

That's why I'm hesitant to add a passphrase because I'm afraid I won't get it right and it will be worse for my kids. On the other hand, it would secure the wallet.

Charles-Tim

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When generating your keys and addresses, and you add passphrase to your seed phrase, different keys and addresses are generated. If you lost the passphrase, you will lose your coins (just like if you lost your seed phrase). You must backup both in different locations and having like two or three backups.

So far your children have the knowledge about it, it is not a bad idea.

Topic: All you need to know about the "mysterious" passphrase (Questions/answers) (Read 263 times)