Topic: Altcoins dead? (Read 6327 times)

If you all are going to listen to fucktards like Max Keiser yammer on saying shit like..
"You can think of StartCOIN as the quantitative easing that the people never had"
I suggest you fuckers get off your ass and get educated.. or your blind lemmings.
http://www.simondixon.org/forget-open-market-operations-we-now-have-coin-market-operation-start_coin/2014/08/06/

get this documentary that explains what that is..
"Money for Nothing Inside the Federal Reserve Jim Bruce 2013"
https://thepiratebay.mn/torrent/9325697/Money_for_Nothing_Inside_the_Federal_Reserve_%282013%29

Okay, I'll admit that I am very lacking when it comes to financials and such. I actually had to do quite a bit of research on these kinds of topics in order to understand some of the deeper points you have made.

But I'm curious, alright, in Your own words please explain why you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme. (which, lets be honest here, are basically two sides of the same coin)

And I am looking at it from an objective lens, Bitcoin just doesn't fit the mold of a Ponzi scheme. And yes, I have done research into Ponzi schemes, a lot of research, in fact. Ironically enough, while financials themselves don't interest me all that much, financial crimes interest me a lot.

I will concede that it is unlikely Bitcoin will ever find wide adoption as a currency, because Bitcoin has become too renowned for it's trading and volatility. I  just like the idea of Bitcoin, I think it's cool. I personally wouldn't care if Bitcoin ended up hitting $0.01 because I'm in it for the tech. I know that I'm in the minority here, and I know basically 99% of people would leave if that were to ever happen, but hey, I don't give a flying fuck.

I haven't been here long enough to see the earlier alts, but I got here around the time the Altcoin boom started happening, so I know just how worthless a lot of those altcoins were. Some were cool, had interesting innovations, others were bitcoin with a coat of paint. Those were more akin to Pump-And-Dump schemes, not Ponzis (again, very similar in nature) but schemes none-the-less.

And you are, indeed, right when you say that the biggest hurdle for Bitcoin, as a currency, is the price. Who wants to spend $300 on a Bitcoin (unless you're a trader), and like I said, I think dollar parity would be a lot better than what we currently have.

I am listening, and I agree with a lot of your points, like Bitcoin probably not gaining widespread use as a currency. But I still don't see it as a Ponzi scheme, because, if it were, then the Stock market and Commodity market would also be Ponzi schemes... probably... like I said, I don't know much about these things.

You still didn't get my point or the point of the Washintong Post guy
and i think it's because your clouded with optimism about Bitcoin..
It's more useful to try and see things as they are rather than pushing an optimistic view.

i will repeat it yet again..
no one said it's a ponzi or pyramid scheme.
what has been said is......

it is "more like" one when taking on an objective, analytical and functional perspective.
..in comparison to a traditional currency.

And oh i am well aware of the history of gold and the emergence of the Federal reserve after Gold was dropped.
and i say isn't the point of BTC about the future of currency ?
So analogies saying it's like how we had things 150 years ago is silly no ?
Can you say going in reverse ?

I don't see it as an opinion type of thing.
I see it as an engineering thing.
Look at what -is-
Not how you want to interpret things.

Bitcoin and Altcoins are not used as currencies.
They are used as digital commodities that far more resemble a digital type of pyramid / ponzi.

And i doubt many of you out there admitting your 20 years old etc have a clue about the history of Pyramid schemes.
I recall the Water Filter pyramid schemes that went around in the 80's ..because i was there.
I am not a wide eyed wet behind the ears kid who is brain washed by Bitcoin bag holder propaganda. LOL
So ?
many of you need to actually get off your ass and go and learn what a ponzi or pyramid scheme is
and that is faaaaar more than Google'ing the definition at Wikipedia.
Try reading testimony from people burned by them and how they actually work out in the wild.
..then come and talk.

The first thing Altcoin guys did here is start propping up worthless clone coins with adding value services schemes.
That was the very fist bullshit gimmick of sorts.. we all laughed about it and called them on it too !

So tacking on a market that no one is or ever will use is a means to make it -seem- like XYZ coin has some use.
Oldest Altcoin dev (marketing team) tactic in the book.
And i see the same thing with Bitcoin itself.
0.01% of users care if it ends up being used as a currency.
The rest care if they make money off it.. it's farce ..a facade.
Just like Altcoins.

If you guys actually cared like you claim you wouldn't even put your new coin on an exchange.
The trade value would be of no importance to the bigger picture.. at least in the first years.

The disconnect with reality all around crypto is wide spread.
You all wish things were different so you try to say they are.

I'd say Bitcoin is not being used for many reasons the biggest being is they are too expensive to buy.
Why is that ?
IF any of you think there is hoards of people coming later to buy any coin for $300 a pop your insane !
Your high on crack LOL
It's never going to happen.. wake the fuck up !

The only thing that would cause a large surge in adoption (or the perception of adoption)
Is if it got added to the US stock exchange with regulations.
And that would solidify the death of it as ever ending up being a currency.
No crypto coin is stable enough to be used as currency value wise. (problem = wild swings in value)
That would do nothing to help get the general public to drop fiat and use BTC instead (or an altcoin)

NOTE: That would make BTC shoot up in value and in turn make it less likely Grandma is buying some.
And there for simply push the user base of BTC to be even more just for traders.

I am wasting my time because no matter what many of you refuse to hear the truth.

The housing market crash people in the financial world called that a Ponzi scheme.
Because of how it actually worked.. derivatives.
And the parallel is identical to this crap.

The bundled derivative housing stocks were hollow and worthless and bared no fruit.
They were / are exactly like a useless digital token we see in Crypto.

There is no "one day"  

Sure, I mean, Bitcoin nowadays is used mostly as a commodity. But that isn't through a fault of design, it was more a fault of consumers. When Bitcoin trading became big business, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and the price shot up, thus getting more people in on the bandwagon. It's a self serving business model, and I find it very disheartening. I would actually be a lot happier if Bitcoin was more or less on par with the dollar. Then it would be more viable as a currency because, as you said, who wants to buy 1 BTC for $1000, unless you plan to make a profit off of it.

The original vision for bitcoin was an admirable one, a currency free from government control. One that couldn't be shut down without shutting down the internet itself. The mindset changed somewhere though, when trading became very profitable, when mining became even more profitable.

You're right when you say that a currency is mostly defined by how much, and how the public adopts it. But just because a lot of people trade Bitcoin as a commodity, doesn't mean it isn't a currency. See the thing about a commodity is that it serves some need or purpose, has some kind of value that can be traded for other things of value. Bitcoin, technically, has no value. It serves no greater purpose than to exist. Sure the ideology behind it and the tech behind is, indeed valuable, but the Bitcoin itself isn't. It's the same as fiat, it's technically worthless, but we all agree it has worth because, why not? Also, another point, commodities can be used as currency. Look at gold for instance, before we had a "gold backed" currency, we literally used gold as a currency, it was still a commodity, but it was also a currency.

And, again, you're right when you say that Bitcoin has a lot of limitations that would limit it's ability to become a mainstream "currency" but just because it has limitations, doesn't mean that it ISN'T a currency.



Hey man, I don't think you're a troll , I think you're just giving your honest opinion as you see fit, and you do actually make some good points. I just happen to disagree with that opinion, which is why I'm still posting here, arguing my stance lol

But to say that it's a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme is a stretch, I could see how people could think of it as a commodity or stock, but as a fraudulent business, I just don't see it personally. 

I think you proved what i was saying about BTC and Alt's (they are an extension)

I said ponzi /pyramid because from an objective stand point it seemed true.
You just said it yourself.. BTC is primarily used as a digital commodity than it is a currency.
It seems to me BTC usage as a currency (as little as it is).. is simply a push for BTC holders to want that for
legitimacy and added value..
Because with out having BTC used as a true currency for bartering etc then what value does a digital stock have ?

That author was right.. it does hinge on "one day" the masses will all use it (as a currency)
What if that never happens ?
I think if BTC is only ever used a digital commodity it will continue to suffer a downward pressure in value.
Big mining operations mine them and dump them on the exchanges..
If there is not enough permanent buy support it will be crushed into worthlessness !
So who is buying them ?
A select group of traders.. the minority (not the general public)
The public does not want to buy a Bitcoin worth $1,000 or even $300 usd
Would i ?
Hell no !
You all here might but you guys don't matter.

Many people in Crypto have acquired Bitcoins or ALT's through a variety of means.
But the general public is expected to go to their bank and take out a massive amount of fiat to go buy them.
Some of you reading this got yours because.
- You traded Altcoins to get your BTC.
- You were an early miner (BTC can not be mined anymore)
- You are a Ransomware coder extorting people for money who are forced to get BTC to get their files back.
  Note: The Ransomware industry supposedly pulls in annually an estimated 325 million dollars a year.
  and if any of them hit reply here i will get an argument.. because they need to keep cashing them out LOL

Well anyway i think it always revolves around public adoption.
Which has been in a steady decline for 2 years.

All i have to say about currencies is..
if it is not used as one but instead used as something else than it's not a currency !

iLoveAltcoins you admitted BTC is not really used as one but as a stock.
Just like that Washington Post guy said..
And the author clearly made the title and his comments reflect that he figured it was "more like" a ponzi / pyramid scheme.
He meant it was more like that negative label than it was a "currency"
And when i thought about i see what he is saying and i also think it applies to Altcoins just as much too.

I have been like you guy all along.. a fan of BTC
I google'd that set of keywords because i was curious why people say that.. not because i thought that myself.
He convinced me.. why ?
Because he made some good points about how Bitcoin was engineered to function (and the related limitations)
I am not trying to be a Troll and i am not saying i give up on Bitcoin either.

EDIT:
That Washington Post guy must have been convincing as others who keep saying it (since i started crypto)
Because it was hit #1 on Google and look around.. see the general public clamoring "Take My Money ?"

I'm not going to talk about regulation, as I am pretty clueless when it comes to securities and exchange law.

I might come back to it when I bone up on my reading but, I'll just concede that this sounds pretty fair/correct, however I still disagree that there can ever be a "level playing field.


Now, the meat of your post Spoetnik... the classic "Bitcoin is a ponzi" claim (Which the article you provided does not substantiate)

This one is practically as old as Bitcoin itself. The thing is, Bitcoin is usually thought of as a Ponzi because early adopters are currently rolling piles of Fiat because they cashed out, while us late-adopters are still trying to work our way up to 1 BTC (Me, currently) which is why _Some_ people think Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Which can be disputed many ways, especially considering that it's not any different than early investors making more money from a startup than late investors, but I digress.

No, the article claims Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme because
1. It isn't a currency and
2. People hoard bitcoins with the hope they will skyrocket in price, and then try to convince other people to buy Bitcoin so the price will go up

See... these two points do not prove that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, mainly because they are incorrect or misinformed.

1. Bitcoin is, in fact, a currency.

According to investopedia currency is defined as:


Sure, Bitcoin isn't issued by a government, but it is circulated within the economy, used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, and is the basis of trade. Sounds like it fits all MOST of the criteria.

2. Yes, people hoard Bitcoins, but you know what else people hoard in hopes of becoming rich? Gold. Gold is one of the most valuable things on Earth, has been used as a currency, has backed other forms of currency, and is generally considered to be a solid investment for people.

How is that any different than Bitcoin? And why is Bitcoin considered a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme because people hoard it the same way they hoard gold?

I've hard many people tell me I should invest in gold (and oil. Canadians are HUGE on Oil) but when people do it for Bitcoin it's different? I honestly don't follow the logic there.

Some of altcoins are still popular, because some Web sites are using altcoins  Also altcoins have very fast transaction time 

altcoins not dead, but scammy altcoins are

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cold-hearted-scammers-copyright-con-coin-1226618

all the greedy and scammy devs are drying up the bitcoin that used to be for trade

no more trade due to scammy devilz

i did not say i want excessive regulation.. i meant *some.
this will enable fairness.
imagine what would happen if the current stock markets abolished any related laws.

the housing market deal was all about the hollow stocks that have no value.. like a clone coin ponzi.
if you're into P2P file sharing look up on torrent sites this file, Money for Nothing Inside the Federal Reserve - Jim Bruce 2013
it explains it REALLY well !
i think every American should be required to see that in school or something.

but yeah i agree Govt. involvement is often a train wreck.. no debate there LOL

but there is a huge difference between no rules and some fair ones to even the playing field.
don't skip over the point that the only thing close to a real Free Market is the illegal Black Market.
American capitalism stock exchange stuff is heavily regulated.
Where is the Free Market examples in life ?

I also have long been a proponent of *some regulation for 1 single reason.
I am convinced this is the major barrier to any and all crypto currency technology (lack of regulations)
Why ?
Because i don't think the people who trade on the US stock exchange etc or your friends and family on Facebook
are going to -ever- adopt a crypto currency unless there is *some regulations put into place for it.
And it's hard for any of you to deny me that assertion too.
Think about it.. Look at how Tigerdirect etc handles Bitcoin.
They know it's risky and few places adopt it for use as a currency because it's a hassle and it's risk to them.
How would you minimize the *perceived risk ? ..regulations.

edit: i forgot many of you may not know there is a huge amount of complaints about them.
when a refund is needed and you paid with Bitcoin expect pure hell ..Google it

I also am not trolling when i say Bitcoin is not a currency and more resembles a pyramid or ponzi scheme.
I google searched "Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme" recently and not because i really thought it was one
but because the public does.. and i wondered why technically do they ?

I hate to say it but search result no. 1 on Google had an editorial on the Washington Post that summed it up nicely.
After reading that i have a hard time deny what the guy said.. he's right !
All of you should read that story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/08/bitcoin-isnt-the-future-of-money-its-either-a-ponzi-scheme-or-a-pyramid-scheme/
Why ?
because it's what the people we want to join us see when they Google search Bitcoin.
And of course i think Altcoins fit right in there with it..same crap.

Well you all say People don't think that.. wrong !
Most of the public have been saying that loud and clear all over the world for years now
and rather than supporting adding regulations you all have plugged your ears and demanded they are wrong.
problem is the public is in charge not us.. we can't force them to use BTC or an Altcoin.
Public perception is important.. what we think is not.

EDIT:
Point ?
Bitcoin and Altcoins are not used as currencies nor are they designed as one.

Heh, no problem. Happens to the best of us

And yeah, stuff can't expand exponentially on Earth (specifically talking about business here) because the population of Earth isn't growing exponentially, which is why market saturation is a such a bad thing for business people.


While I don't know much about the housing crisis (it's a little out of my scope) I think I can answer the first question there.

I don't think he was specifically against regulations, per se, what he was against was governmental oversight coming in and exploiting the currency system. Too much regulation and government oversight can be a serious issue. Just look at the Cyprus incident that happened a few years back, they literally stole money from their citizens bank accounts. That's the kind of stuff that Satoshi was against... at least, as far as I know.



Yowza... that's a fucking sentence LOL

Look, when it comes to personal freedom, a free market is the only way to go. With an over regulated market you just get the same old crap we always get. We probably wouldn't have computers, cell phones, toys, etc. Because the government would swoop in and say "This is clearly bad for you, we need to protect you from it,"  which is why I'm fundamentally against anything other than a free market.

As for your other sentence, yeah, but it also allows for other people to become rich as well. In a limited market economy, the government and and a few "select" businesses get richer, it would be nearly impossible for someone from the "middle class" to join the ranks of the rich in a limited market, in the free market all it takes is a good idea, and good business sense. Plus, free markets give the people the freedom to choose whether or not a product succeeds or fails, not the government.

.

Sure, I mean, I'm a kid, and I used to think the rebel hacker bullshit was the coolest thing in the world. The Matrix really cemented that for me lol

But in all seriousness, Bitcoin isn't really all that different from cash. Sure there aren't as many laws restricting Bitcoins use, but fundamentally there isn't a lot we can to prevent cash from being used the same way.

Sure a lack of regulations can be bad, especially because we are humans, and humans are intrinsically assholes, but with a lack of regulation, the government can't swoop in a take all our Bitcoins, or shut Bitcoin down, or whatever. That's basically the entire point of Bitcoin, a lack of government power/oversight.


See, the thing is, an "even playing field" isn't really even, ever. Especially when talking about money. When it comes down to it, regulations put the power in the hands of the government, a lack of regulations puts *most* of the power in the hands of the rich. The difference here is that in one of those scenarios, the power is fixed and unchanging, in the other, the power is shifting hands basically everyday.

And, yeah, people have been arrested for Bitcoin crimes. Google "First Pirate Savings and Trust" and you'll see what I mean.

But, if you're a socialist/communist (no bias against either of those viewpoints, I just disagree with them) then me arguing with you probably won't convince you of anything.

Also, I just realized that the topic on this thread has shifted dramatically because Spoetnik and I are now arguing about the fundamentals of economy. I just thought that was funny LOL

@iLoveAltcoins.

First off thanks for side stepping my spelling mistakes LOL
I noticed the first sentence i wrote was messed up *as usual ahhaha

And i don't want to be right.. it would have been nice if all this kept expanding (but it didn't)
What we got was a lot of stories of i got hacked.. whether it was coins claiming that or Exchanges.

And the consensus by the majority on Cryptsy's Troll box way back day after day was cloning will have no negative impact.
It would just blow my mind how these guys could say that.
Hell i even seen a Coindesk story saying that.. saying the more the better.
LOL uuuhmm no  

I want to ask you guys.. Did Satoshi go on the record claiming he was against regulation some how ?
And you guys do realize that regulations exist to protect you right ? and protect the scene too !
All you have to is look at the housing market crash and the recession it triggered.
It was caused by Greenspan refusing to put some simple regulations in.. no matter how hard he was warned ahead of time.
He is regarded as Fed reserve Einstein.. a god.. cover of lots of magazines.. a hero.

he's an idiot and he is personally responsible for wrecking the whole worlds economy.
he insisted that we would not let things get bad and we would police ourselves..
He gave us a free market.

Reality check kids.. Free Markets are bad.

All they do is make the rich richer.

Bernanke's current fixes are a band-aid that is peeling off.
I seen a guy on the news who said he laughed and made over 1.5 BILLION dollars profit.
yes that is right.. i said "Billion"
It was easy he said.. Bernanke again announced bail outs basically.
Bernanke pledged that the US fed reserve would hand cash out to keep the system afloat.
So financial firms laughed their ass off crashed the market and collected the free govt money.
Literally laughing to the bank then on CNN in an interview !

Kids with 2 bitcoin love the anon hackers rebel no rules bad ass bullshit.
but guys who make 1.5 billion dollars profit REALLY like the lack of regulations..

it's not much different between the two scenes.
you guys chant no laws.. i want a Free Market.
Well you enable the super rich to abuse the poor.. and hoard 95% of the worlds money.
They make their own rules and you can never win.. poor guys stay poor and rich get richer.
And you guys let 'em !

You *could even the playing field by putting regulations in place but you don't want that for some odd reason.
I always think of Berni Madoff and Martha Stewart.
A ponzi scheme'er and an insider trader.
Can you guys fathom how many guys in Crypto would be behind bars if we had similar laws ?
I just said..
You *could even the playing field by putting regulations in place but you don't want that for some odd reason.
I think i see why now LOL

i am a simple person with some logic i hope...

When it is about profit all things are same enough
If you connect death of any Altcoin with just equity with the US$ or Euro then you are missing something i feel

i personally think value and life of any Altcoin out there is simple to realize
Are there unique services offered for AnyCoin ? then that coin cant die no matter what equity has

Just my 34 satoshis here ,have a nice day

Unfortunately this is quite true... I've only been back to the whole Bitcoin/altcoin scene a few weeks now and there does seem to be quite a lot less discussion going on here than there used to be.



Oh I have no doubt that I was more than partially responsible for whatever tragedy might happen to befall Altcoins, whether that be total "block death" or simply "price death" either way, I'll still wear the moniker ILoveAltcoins because, well, I do. I love tech stuff and I love playing with code. Bitcoin's just happens to be awesome for that kind of stuff.

Regulations though... i don't know. Kind of defeats the purpose of Bitcoin, no?



Well that's just a plain stupid thing for them to say. Obviously it would have lead to market saturation. I could have told you that back in 2013 when I first made my account that that is where we were headed.


I don't think you're a troll. Sure you've said some trollish things on this thread, but I've never seen a troll display logic and reason, which you have done numerous times during our discussion about Altcoins on this thread, I think you're a pretty okay guy (Or girl, how should I know?  )


Yes, you're right, we're probably going to cycle through Alt explosions every 2-4 years, because that's generally how it works in any market without regulation. The problem is that you cannot introduce regulation into a project that was intended to have little to no regulation at all.

Also, I never claimed I was innocent, and never did I claim to support clonecoins (Sure, I used to, I also get paid to make them for people) I support personal currencies that people my release to the outside world for whatever reason, I don't support the use of people using various Altcoins to make a profit either. However I do support innovation, it's fun, it's cool, it's exciting. Which is why I like altcoins, and why i think the community won't die.

Plenty of us care about the idea and *not just the money.. that ain't the point though.
We have been over shadowed and we let the greedy take over (or maybe become them)
The result is a ghost town..

Bickering over whether it's actually read dead or not doesn't matter.. close enough.
I doubt things will change in a positive and meaningful way i have said lots unless we get regulations.
It's what stops us from destroying ourselves..

The pattern through out history has shown when ever we can ruin things by given too much trust we do.
We're like snakes that eat their own tales.
It's always someone else in Crypto that is the problem.
But it couldn't have gotten this bad unless we were all responsible.

We were all a part of a giant failed social experiment in greed..
What happened is we all just figured it would be ok if we supported shiity coins quietly when no one was looking.
This made coin cloning possible and led to many thousands of them being made.
Which in turn triggered the wave of momentum that got us here.

The only question to me is did these guys early on that would hang out on Cryptsy chat
did they really believe that it when they told me time after time that massive amounts of clone coins will do no harm ?
Yeah they actually said that and they were led by their leader.. BitJohn.
Who was always at the for front of making excuses for them all.. i argued with him and others about when this was
just catching on then when it was super popular then after when it was dead.

I head the same crap.. No it won't dilute the markets and cause price crashing..
Yes it brings in new users etc etc
All of it a crock of shit.

Funny is these same guy just change their tune and NOW go with teh crowd and claim to bea against them
But they were not before.

Spoetnik you have a reputation of being a Troll.
Actually i have a reputation of arguing with guys who run exchanges and support shit coins.

I called it.. look around.
And don't blame me either..
For example i left a scathing comment on the Doge coin ANN early on saying i was sickened and disgusted by ALL of youhere.
No one agreed with me.
You all made it the biggest altcoin.. regardless of my bitching and moaning.
So a coin can success (if you want to call it that) no matter how much i trash on it.

I'll wrap it up buy just saying this is just another trend that is going on.
I said when it crashes you will all play the i hate shit coins guy (because money is getting scarce)
But once money flows back in hard.. scammy shit coin clones will explode in popularity all over again.
There has been no lesson learned here, that is an illusion by people who push Pyramid / Ponzi Schemes.

Sit there and play innocent little crypto supporter but bear in mind with no regulations in place
the evil one's (everyone but me) are enabled to wreck things.

Let's just go back to pretending everything is fine and keep trading coins made by anon shady characters
..on Exchanges that require your ID and a bank statement and power bill and SIN card etc etc.
Isn't it cute you have to show your ID to sell an Anonymous Crypto Coin ?

I also never proclaimed my innocence just that i was no near as bad as the majority.

edit: couple spelling mistakes

Are you saying the world isn't run by lizard people?

Well there goes my entire world view.


But in all seriousness, I agree that the business aspect of Altcoins is virtually dead, the "intellectual" aspect, however probably won't die, I myself am currently experimenting with altcoins on my own local network.

And, while yes ransomeware is a huge part of the crypto world, I don't believe that that is the sole reason bitcoin still "exists." It might be the reason it never becomes "mainstream" (that and websites like Silkroad) but to say there isn't a dedicated community (and big business) behind bitcoin is just plain wrong.

So it would be better for you not to post on any altcoin discussion thread in the future you're just wasting your time.

Altcoins are just useless.... The owners just want publicity and money. There  is no point of having them around.

I don't even know what to say anymore.. all you guys out there are deceitful, delusional & brain damaged and in denial.

I think unicorns and lizard people have taken over with the Illuminati and they run the world.
It's fact i just said so.

EDIT:
The only reason Bitcoin exists anymore is because of RansomWare makers and related bs losers.
If they are stopped Bitcoin will dry up and die and so will Altcoins.

Ransomware have amassed more than $325 million USD from victims.

They are the life blood of crypto.
You little noob's out there spend 50 bucks on shit coins and virus makers buy 1 million cash worth.
You noob' bullshit altcoin existence hinges on the backs of criminals.

Dont think altcoins will ever be dead..

the cooch is dried up son !