[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 113.

Minor Miner

legendary

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Be A Digital Miner

Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 08:04:05 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 05:02:24 PM

Yes, you are right again they are at 110nm going to 65nm. AMC is going to 28nm
Yes, AMC gets 10% and does not have all the cost of manufacturing, all profit and by the way that is twice the normal royalty of 5% for things like this.

Asicminer can afford to build at any node they want. Unlike you, Friedcat probably understands the silicon roadmap well enough to understand why 28 nm is a foolish target.
Show us your great expertise Ken. Give us a discussion of the merits of 28 nm vs. 65 nm. As a hint here are some key topics.
Die Size
Power consumption
Yield
Mask Costs
Availability of Wafer starts
Cost of wafer starts
Clock rate

I am glad you love Friedcat, does he have his own thread?

Ken;
I think you are being a little misleading so I want to clarify your post. You stated that you JUST retained an engineering firm and you will have a WORKING PROTOTYPE in three weeks. Are you talking about a board for your avalon chips or this 28nm you keep referencing?

kslaughter

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Quote from: ThickAsThieves on June 15, 2013, 07:51:35 AM

Hey Ken, not sure if it's of any use to you, but someone is selling 4 Avalon chips here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=234911.0;topicseen

Just in case you might need them to test your boards.

Thanks TAT, I could use a few more, just received 30 sample chips yesterday.

ThickAsThieves

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Hey Ken, not sure if it's of any use to you, but someone is selling 4 Avalon chips here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=234911.0;topicseen

Just in case you might need them to test your boards.

canuck

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Thalum on June 14, 2013, 12:31:36 PM

With AMC issuing 40mil shares, is there any way that it'll ever see the kinds of dividends that ASICminer is putting out just now? I mean, there would need to be a ton of mining going on, right?

Please excuse my clumsiness here. I'm on my phone.

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

Now that said, AMC only has the three avalons hashing and everything else is as yet, simply theory. Will AMC manage to build all the machines they desire to build? Will Avalon deliver on the chip orders. Will AMCs technology even work? Who knows for sure. We can only do the best we can with the information we have and Ken does seem to be getting better at investor relations though it would be nice if he rose above the need he feels sometimes for retaliatory and emotional responses to critics.

You are using false equivalence.

Comparing AMC to Asicminer is patently ridiculous, on so many levels it tempts me to make a fake stock like Ken here to take your money too.

So firstly, I apologize for being unclear. As I mentioned, I was on my phone and I was busy with other tasks. I just wanted to chime in to answer a question and provide a better understanding of AMC's share structure. I did certainly mention in my second paragraph just some of the many reasons that this was indeed a false equivalency. I don't deny that for a second. In fact, I thought I had clearly implied that but it seems you didn't catch on to that and that's likely because I just wasn't clear enough. Again, I apologize.

More importantly, my post wasn't meant to say that AMC was in fact undervalued by a factor of 15. I used that phrasing and that was probably a mistake but I did say that if you considered ONLY (only was emphasized) those numbers, that this was the case. That's not the equivalency I was trying to draw. I was trying to answer a question about the earning potential of shares and give Thalum a better idea of how the share structure is different from ASICminer. That's really the only thing I was trying to do.

kslaughter

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 05:02:24 PM

Yes, you are right again they are at 110nm going to 65nm. AMC is going to 28nm

Yes, AMC gets 10% and does not have all the cost of manufacturing, all profit and by the way that is twice the normal royalty of 5% for things like this.

Asicminer can afford to build at any node they want. Unlike you, Friedcat probably understands the silicon roadmap well enough to understand why 28 nm is a foolish target.

Show us your great expertise Ken. Give us a discussion of the merits of 28 nm vs. 65 nm. As a hint here are some key topics.

Die Size
Power consumption
Yield
Mask Costs
Availability of Wafer starts
Cost of wafer starts
Clock rate

I am glad you love Friedcat, does he have his own thread?

lewicki

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Activity: 294

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Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 05:48:13 PM

Yes, It has been a long week, I am a little tired.

Here is some good news, we have just retained an Electronic Engineering Services firm.

We will have our first prototype of our Fast-Hash-XX series within the next three weeks.

Boom-sha-ka-laka!

kslaughter

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Here is AMC's Ranking on BTCGuild ID: 211435

kslaughter

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: hf on June 14, 2013, 05:32:29 PM

Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 05:06:32 PM

Quote from: hf on June 14, 2013, 04:41:10 PM

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

How is that even remotely relevant ? I could say the same : ASICMINER is undervalued at 3BTC being the biggest miner on the market and delivering the biggest dividends of the market.

You can say that, however you didn't even put any facts behind your statement, at least canuck had some reasoning and facts behind his statement.

Here you have, I highlighted the facts behind my statement.

By the way, I respect your work and here is the current list of top AMC shares' owners :
20,000,000
15,009,057
----------
616,416
320,989
214,984
200,000
186,653
149,919
147,971
106,091
104,475
100,273

I'm part of this list, and I bought at 0.0005 before Ukyo forced you to sell all 5M. I wouldn't own so many shares if I wasn't thinking 1. you're smart enough to succeed 2. you'll succeed. Don't be so touchy. I was pointing out that comparing the value of 1 share out of 40M shares to the value of 1 share out of 400K shares to come to the conclusion that both of them should be worth the same - otherwise one of them is undervalued - makes no sense and is no relevant at all. You certainly get that.
AMC is undervalued. Doesn't mean splitting X by 40M == splitting X by 40K.

Yes, It has been a long week, I am a little tired.

Here is some good news, we have just retained an Electronic Engineering Services firm.

We will have our first prototype of our Fast-Hash-XX series within the next three weeks.

Vbs

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Activity: 504

Merit: 500

hf,
Don't worry, the fact Ken is "touchy" Grin

is one of the reasons why I also agree with your points. From what I've seen he's one to defend the AMC shirt with all his heart and work tirelessly for that. That counts a lot in my book.

hf

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Activity: 98

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there will be no fucking vegetables

Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 05:06:32 PM

Quote from: hf on June 14, 2013, 04:41:10 PM

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

How is that even remotely relevant ? I could say the same : ASICMINER is undervalued at 3BTC being the biggest miner on the market and delivering the biggest dividends of the market.

You can say that, however you didn't even put any facts behind your statement, at least canuck had some reasoning and facts behind his statement.

Here you have, I highlighted the facts behind my statement.

By the way, I respect your work and here is the current list of top AMC shares' owners :
20,000,000
15,009,057
----------
616,416
320,989
214,984
200,000
186,653
149,919
147,971
106,091
104,475
100,273

I'm part of this list, and I bought at 0.0005 before Ukyo forced you to sell all 5M. I wouldn't own so many shares if I wasn't thinking 1. you're smart enough to succeed 2. you'll succeed. Don't be so touchy. I was pointing out that comparing the value of 1 share out of 40M shares to the value of 1 share out of 400K shares to come to the conclusion that both of them should be worth the same - otherwise one of them is undervalued - makes no sense and is no relevant at all. You certainly get that.
AMC is undervalued. Doesn't mean splitting X by 40M == splitting X by 40K.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Lets clear some of the raised issues.

First, comparing the number of shares between both or the value of each is misleading. Different assets, different propositions.

Second, just because Asicminer started first doesn't mean it will be the only major player infinitely. History in contemporary society has proved this argument many times wrong.

Third, asicminer sells hardware paid by their own mining, which is very different than the VMC model. Hardware sold by VMC is not bought using AMC profits. VMC buys their own hardware, using their own funds.

Fourth, opinions are just that, opinions, like mine. That's why they are a dime a dozen! Grin

kslaughter

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: hf on June 14, 2013, 04:41:10 PM

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

How is that even remotely relevant ? I could say the same : ASICMINER is undervalued at 3BTC being the biggest miner on the market and delivering the biggest dividends of the market.

You can say that, however you didn't even put any facts behind your statement, at least canuck had some reasoning and facts behind his statement.

kslaughter

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote

Asicminer has ~25% of the network hashrate today. This includes facilities with 100s of kW to power all those systems.

You are right ~25% TODAY! As soon as we need the facilities we will have no problem housing our equipment in a facility with ample power. One question are Asicminer facilities underground?

Quote

AMC has 3 Avalons generating less than 1/1000 of the network hashrate

Again, your're right, TODAY! Maybe not so right next week, or next month.

Quote

Asicminer is a first mover in building silicon for bitcoin

Yes, you are right again they are at 110nm going to 65nm. AMC is going to 28nm

Quote

AMC will be years behind if they deliver anything at all. Ken has less competency in the area than BFL does.

AMC has already delivered and I have hired two engineering firms, one for our chip design and one for our board design.

Quote

Asicminer holds 100% of the rights to equipment sales

Yes, I guess they do, producing those great 10 GH/s errupter boards.

Quote

AMC has no rights to equipment sales if they ever materialize as Ken has gifted them to his wholly owned company for a tiny royalty

Yes, AMC gets 10% and does not have all the cost of manufacturing, all profit and by the way that is twice the normal royalty of 5% for things like this.
Also, AMC gets a number of machines at Manufacturers Cost, that is a really tiny benefit.

Quote

Asicminer has earned the trust of the community

Yes, they have and they where called scammers at first.

Quote

AMC spams blatantly misleading press releases like a penny stock operator

AMC likes to keep the Investors informed.

hf

member

Activity: 98

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there will be no fucking vegetables

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

How is that even remotely relevant ? I could say the same : ASICMINER is undervalued at 3BTC being the biggest miner on the market and delivering the biggest dividends of the market.

kslaughter

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

First Week Earning Report

canuck

member

Activity: 116

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Quote from: kslaughter on June 14, 2013, 02:20:38 PM

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Thalum on June 14, 2013, 12:31:36 PM

With AMC issuing 40mil shares, is there any way that it'll ever see the kinds of dividends that ASICminer is putting out just now? I mean, there would need to be a ton of mining going on, right?

Please excuse my clumsiness here. I'm on my phone.

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

Now that said, AMC only has the three avalons hashing and everything else is as yet, simply theory. Will AMC manage to build all the machines they desire to build? Will Avalon deliver on the chip orders. Will AMCs technology even work? Who knows for sure. We can only do the best we can with the information we have and Ken does seem to be getting better at investor relations though it would be nice if he rose above the need he feels sometimes for retaliatory and emotional responses to critics.

Yes, I am trying and I think I have rose above the retailiatory and emotional responses. I think you are right, I think it is undervalued by aleast 15 times.

Not that your biased or anything Ken. Wink

*chuckle *

kslaughter

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: canuck on June 14, 2013, 12:53:57 PM

Quote from: Thalum on June 14, 2013, 12:31:36 PM

With AMC issuing 40mil shares, is there any way that it'll ever see the kinds of dividends that ASICminer is putting out just now? I mean, there would need to be a ton of mining going on, right?

Please excuse my clumsiness here. I'm on my phone.

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

Now that said, AMC only has the three avalons hashing and everything else is as yet, simply theory. Will AMC manage to build all the machines they desire to build? Will Avalon deliver on the chip orders. Will AMCs technology even work? Who knows for sure. We can only do the best we can with the information we have and Ken does seem to be getting better at investor relations though it would be nice if he rose above the need he feels sometimes for retaliatory and emotional responses to critics.

Yes, I am trying and I think I have rose above the retailiatory and emotional responses. I think you are right, I think it is undervalued by aleast 15 times.

canuck

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Activity: 116

Merit: 10

Quote from: Thalum on June 14, 2013, 12:31:36 PM

With AMC issuing 40mil shares, is there any way that it'll ever see the kinds of dividends that ASICminer is putting out just now? I mean, there would need to be a ton of mining going on, right?

Please excuse my clumsiness here. I'm on my phone.

ASICminer has 400,000 shares outstanding. AMC will issue up to 100,000,000 shares in total or 250 times as many shares as ASICminer.

Currently, ASIC miner shares are approaching 3 BTC while AMC is hovering around 0.0008 BTC per share or just 1/3,750th the price of one ASICminer share. Taking ONLY these numbers into consideration, AMC is undervalued by a factor of 15 times measured very simplistically against ASICminer.

Now that said, AMC only has the three avalons hashing and everything else is as yet, simply theory. Will AMC manage to build all the machines they desire to build? Will Avalon deliver on the chip orders. Will AMCs technology even work? Who knows for sure. We can only do the best we can with the information we have and Ken does seem to be getting better at investor relations though it would be nice if he rose above the need he feels sometimes for retaliatory and emotional responses to critics.

lewicki

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: Mabsark on June 14, 2013, 12:42:13 PM

Quote from: pneumatic5 on June 14, 2013, 12:28:11 PM

Quote from: lewicki on June 14, 2013, 11:52:47 AM

People funded their BitFunder accounts to buy ASICMINER. There will soon be a correction, and in my opinion people will be looking elsewhere to put their money instead of sending it back to their BTC wallets. Once BFL, AMC, and the likes start taking off, there will be no way for ASICMINER to sustain their returns.

The returns will decrease only because of difficulty increase right? But wouldn't ASICMINER still have the highest returns for the foreseeable future?

The dividends will decrease due to a number of reasons.

decreased share of the network hash rate due to the increased share from the competition,
decreased hardware sales due to needing the hashing power for the mining operation,
decreased income from hardware sales due to the competition offering better value.

+1

Quote from: pneumatic5 on June 14, 2013, 12:28:11 PM

But wouldn't ASICMINER still have the highest returns for the foreseeable future?

Let me add by saying: what good are returns when the price starts to fall more than 1.03% per week?

Mabsark

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Quote from: pneumatic5 on June 14, 2013, 12:28:11 PM

Quote from: lewicki on June 14, 2013, 11:52:47 AM

People funded their BitFunder accounts to buy ASICMINER. There will soon be a correction, and in my opinion people will be looking elsewhere to put their money instead of sending it back to their BTC wallets. Once BFL, AMC, and the likes start taking off, there will be no way for ASICMINER to sustain their returns.

The returns will decrease only because of difficulty increase right? But wouldn't ASICMINER still have the highest returns for the foreseeable future?

The dividends will decrease due to a number of reasons.

decreased share of the network hash rate due to the increased share from the competition,
decreased hardware sales due to needing the hashing power for the mining operation,
decreased income from hardware sales due to the competition offering better value.

Topic: [AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 113. (Read 223316 times)