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Topic: America Beyond Capitalism (Read 6666 times)

hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
February 02, 2012, 08:05:04 AM
#33

Well, that's why I added the line "pure money". Fiat is anything but pure.

So by "pure money" do you mean money as an IOU for work done but not paid for?

I most likely mean commodity money. Something that has evolved into money through a consensus.

I think Bitcoin fits the bill. Although the way I see it, it was created to have properties that would make it a suitable commodity money, although it never was simply a commodity (some might say it is only a commodity). So the evolution with Bitcoin isn't a commodity becoming money, but being accepted as commodity money from the start. Strange, but it seems to be working fairly well.

Money is certainly special.

Bitcoins, being a hash and unique commodity, can be accepted as a balance of trade, as can money or any other good depending on what the trader wants, and are protected as long as the hashing network remains uncompromised. It might be tempting to consider money a commodity due to it's acceptance and demand, but strictly speaking, it's not.

Either can represent different things to different people. For some they are food, for some they are luxuries, and for others they are penis lengths. Bitcoins are like money in that they are inherently in-consumable, but they are unlike money in that they cannot be easily duplicated. If you believe money to be a commodity, then I believe you might misunderstand money. I believe a more accurate way to consider money, is as your priority of access to the market of commodities. Anyone with the power to create money (banks, credit companies, govts) can put themselves in front of the line for resources, at whim.

Believing money to be a commodity, is what the issuers need the masses to believe, for them (the banks/govt/creditors) to get the most benefit out of it themselves.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
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January 31, 2012, 01:46:52 PM
#32
without

with
hero member
Activity: 518
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January 30, 2012, 07:15:28 AM
#31
Providing for your family isn't the only responsibility one must take. Apparently they aren't doing a very good job of protecting their resources if other civilizations are able to come in and take it. I wonder what happened? Too busy fighting among themselves throughout history to fend off attack from outsiders?

You are arguing like an 8 year old. Feel free to bump this thread in 10 years.
hero member
Activity: 518
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January 30, 2012, 05:59:26 AM
#30
If I have no money, I have to earn it somehow. Normally I prefer to work and get paid with money, so I can "save" the fruit of my efforts for later

Or you could lend, steal or beg. Or print it. Or whatever, it has almost nothing to do with work, other than one of its many uses is to compensate for work. But its also used to to compensate crime, that doesnt mean money somehow represents crime, or does it?

I took a quick look at the histories of those countries, very quick mind you, and it seems like they've all had some form of regime change quite recently. And it also seems like they were constantly facing regime changes through out history. Also, they seem to have some kind of government currently as well.

Of course they have a government in name. But they are so ineffective outside the capital cities there might as well be none.
What you get is others filling the void. There is always a demand for power, absent a functional government its being taken by warlords, tribes, religious fractions, and quite importantly, foreign multinational oil and mining corporations that actually govern key area's in Congo and Nigeria. Free market capitalism at work. Go on a trip and see how well it works for them.

There is no reason to assume it would work any differently in any other region in the world. FWIW, Somalia, long before it was called that, was actually a vibrant and prosperous region once.

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The difference is when people are governed, they give up some of their responsibility to the government. When you take it away, they are like lost children.

Thats such a ridiculous blanket nonsense statement. You think the average Nigerian, Somali or Congolese hasnt learned to take responsibility for providing for his/her family by now? They have had to do so for generations. Much good it has done to their economy.

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They have to learn how to form a proper society and this takes time. You say it can't work, I disagree. I think it can work sooner in developed countries with a functioning government that provides some freedoms (e.g. the U.S.) faster than it can work in the chaos of a failed state.

Wait.. are you saying governments provide freedom?
hero member
Activity: 518
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January 30, 2012, 03:37:53 AM
#29
Well, why is it bollocks?

Because money doesnt represent work, it represents wealth.

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Let me guess, you are using these as examples of the failure of free market capitalism?

Not really. Yes, these are examples of failed states, where governments dont run anything in most parts of the country, and havent for decades or even centuries. No taxes are collected, no services are provided by the government outside the major cities. That leaves it to the free market to supply just about anything, from basic security to healthcare and education. The result is not quite your paradise, and believe me, its not because those Africans are not entrepreneurial.

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Those countries, without knowing a damn thing about them, are most likely suffering the results of governmental collapse. In other words, the market didn't evolve to be free, it fell into chaos when the people in control were some how removed.

Whats the difference? Failed states provide good evidence of what happens when you remove governments almost completely, I assume thats your idea of a "pure free market"? It doesnt work. It cant work.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
January 29, 2012, 09:13:28 PM
#28
Lawyers, Guns, and Money are the Rock, Paper, Scissors of the real world.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
January 29, 2012, 07:08:54 PM
#27
The perfect money...

You can get anything with it.
hero member
Activity: 994
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January 29, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
#26

Well, that's why I added the line "pure money". Fiat is anything but pure.

So by "pure money" do you mean money as an IOU for work done but not paid for?
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
January 29, 2012, 06:07:30 PM
#25
Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).

Bollocks.

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We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.

Somalia. Most of Congo. Most of Nigeria,... no state to distort or disrupt the free market there.

I would like to see a picture of a capitalist in Somalia and perhaps a peek at his/her portfolio. What investment advice does a Somalian Capitalist have to share with us proletariat?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
bool eval(bool b){return b ? b==true : b==false;}
January 29, 2012, 05:56:47 PM
#24
Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).
Well I don´t think so.
It can be used so to say as a compensation for work, but rarely is.
Whilst talking about work, the term energy springs to mind.
Now thinking of money being a kind of energy, which I consider a good idea. It is quite obvious that fiat money violates the rules of thermodynamics.
You can consider this a feature, but I don´t.

We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.
Having a free market in the sense anybody might freely sell what he/she/it has to everybody. Is fine with me.
But truely our world is very different.
For some it´s even legal to sell things or loan money they don´t have, which I have learned to call betrayal.
This kind of capitalism combined with fiat money is a dangerous mixture.

The current economical system failed in spreading wealth, it rather opend the scissor between the poor and the rich.
Provided my perception is correct, it is time to change something. So getting beyond capitalism seems a good plan to me.
hero member
Activity: 518
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January 29, 2012, 04:51:20 PM
#23
Money is a representation of work (well pure money is).

Bollocks.

Quote
We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.

Somalia. Most of Congo. Most of Nigeria,... no state to distort or disrupt the free market there.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
January 29, 2012, 04:39:32 PM
#22
Capitalists are people who make money with money, not work. Capitalism is espoused by people who believe this is a good thing. I suppose I might too if I was born a gazillionaire.

Money is a representation of work (well pure money is). We don't have true free market capitalism in any nation in the world today, and probably never have.
Indeed. There is no evidence to suggest it.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 29, 2012, 04:18:24 PM
#21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

"There is no consensus on the precise definition nor on how the term should be used as a historical category."

If OP would clarify which particular flavour of capitalism he thinks America is moving beyond, the thread might be more logical.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
January 29, 2012, 03:01:56 PM
#20
Capitalists are people who make money with money, not work. Capitalism is espoused by people who believe this is a good thing. I suppose I might too if I was born a gazillionaire.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 29, 2012, 02:07:38 PM
#19
Who knows
Maybe someone will invent a new political system
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1000
฿itcoin: Currency of Resistance!
January 14, 2012, 01:30:37 AM
#18
As much as I resent our current political and economic system, I dont see  "Somalia-style" libertarianism as a viable alternative, let alone neo-communist state socialism, so Im intigued about learning about alternatives. Ive always been a fan of Noam Chomsky, I think this guy is thinking in the same direction:

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=767&Itemid=74&jumival=7745


I am against the capitalism.

Me and a lots of friends, are about to build a experimental city, without any kind of money.

An off-the-grid-city, no electricity bills to anybody... Free food, free bricks, free internet, free water, free vestment, free cars, free robots, no competition but instead, cooperation.

No food bill.
No water bill.
No banks.
No politicans.
No Bitcoins.
Entirely based on open source tools/machinery/hardware/software/medications/food-production-supply/etc...

At first, we will use Bitcoins as a tool make the transition from a capitalistic society to a society with a economy based on resources.

We must end the FED and all world's banks.
We must change the government forever.
So, a new society will born...
The land for the city is almost at our hands.

Best!
Thiago
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
December 30, 2011, 04:14:31 AM
#17
so this got me thinking,
(I'm assuming you like the idea of democracy)
how does democracy not lead to something like corporate feudalism or an oligarchy or some such bad thing?
I think democracy tends to do that because in bad times it is basically mob rule since a majority of people can often be whipped up into a bad agreement out of fear (for simplicity's  sake an agreement that 'that guy should make the decisions now').
the fear can be manufactured by the people who want to become the oligarchs. and they might be able to manufacture the bad times too.

I dont see how wealth or corporate power enters the picture here. I guess I dont see what your point is?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
December 30, 2011, 04:08:48 AM
#16
I'm sorry if this is not worthy of a response. But I am asking an honest question here. Just link me if it is so dumb.

Didnt mean to imply it was unworthy of anything, its just that Im hardly an anarchist scholar. Still, as I understand, in an anarchist (or if you prefer,  libertarian socalist) society, a distinction is made between property and possession. You wouldnt own the oil under the ground. Something which is not that revolutionary as its already true in many state capitalist societies.  Even in the US, afaik, oil thats found offshore doesnt belong to any individual. Its the state that assumes and then sells mineral rights to that oil.

You might be interested in reading this:
http://www.constitution.org/elec/secI5.html

hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 30, 2011, 02:49:01 AM
#15
So there's a libertarian socialist community living pretty much independently somewhere. The offspring of one of the founders discovers a well (or oil, or whatever natural resource), while digging a new foundation for his/her house. That person is an ass and decides they deserve a larger share of the community pot in return for the water. Or if they are more clever, they could obfuscate how much water is really down there and how difficult it is to attain, thereby artificially limiting the supply and getting more of other resources in return for relatively little work.

How would such a community deal with this situation?

I'm sorry if this is not worthy of a response. But I am asking an honest question here. Just link me if it is so dumb.
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
December 30, 2011, 12:00:54 AM
#14

The problem is that wealth gets you power. And power gets you wealth. The system is incompatible with democracy. We are headed towards corporate feudalism.

so this got me thinking,
(I'm assuming you like the idea of democracy)
how does democracy not lead to something like corporate feudalism or an oligarchy or some such bad thing?
I think democracy tends to do that because in bad times it is basically mob rule since a majority of people can often be whipped up into a bad agreement out of fear (for simplicity's  sake an agreement that 'that guy should make the decisions now').
the fear can be manufactured by the people who want to become the oligarchs. and they might be able to manufacture the bad times too.

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