Topic: America's Choice - Liberty or Sustainable Development - page 2. (Read 3587 times)

Everyone should read Progress and Poverty by Henry George.

I agree with what you're saying here. But it's necessary to not presume that the desires of libertarians are compatible with conservation, efficiency and preservation.

Um, what?

Consider that desiring private land ownership, desiring zero regulations, and desiring no taxes are wants, i.e. desires. Basing decisions on desires, and then working backwards to show that those desires are justified is just that, backwards.

A forward analysis is necessary instead.

Steelhouse, as an aside, you should read the book Rewilding North America, by Dave Foreman.

Just to nitpick, Hawker is not a Marxist.  He is a right-wing welfare-queen aka "soldier".

The choice is a false choice. It is a classic logical fallacy. Sustainable development and liberty do not have to be exclusive. The problem is the consumption patterns and planned obsolescence. The current system rewards wastefulness. Don't destroy liberty to get sustainability, build a BETTER more sustainable system and people will use it because it works! As people in America get more and more broke and as our currency devalues people will be BEGGING for sustainable alternatives because the grid system will no longer be affordable. The key is education, not removal of rights.

I don't agree with the idea of private land ownership.  Are the San Bushman of Africa that own no land free?  How can you say that aren't free? They can build a house anywhere they want without permits.  Government laws are necessary on land to protect the native flora and fauna due to human overpopulation.  The Tule Elk of California, were save by a rich private landowner because he puts rules on his land before government.

Renting land to put your home or business on for free makes you free.

No. What you need to do is, for a temporary period of time, discard your pet ideology and beliefs from your mind, make the slate blank, and then start evaluating the dynamics of the system.

Forget about policies, laws, and institutions. Go back to first principles. Those are human greed, the net energy available on Earth per unit time, the inter dynamic symbiosis of the Earth's natural systems, and lastly, the trajectory of the Earth's natural capital over time.

If you don't have a solid grasp of those four concepts, then just put a zipper on your mouth until you do. I suspect that all of your rhetoric is the result of absorbing material from gas bags who derive solutions based on their beliefs in certain pet ideologies. Utterly useless.

Learn about the four concepts I enumerated, and then apply intelligent analysis. Demonstrate to me that you have knowledge with regard to that, or just stop posting.

Yeah right - all of us Marxists vote conservative.  

/sarcasm.

I repeat my point and question.  Just because your favourite conspiracy theory "works" describing your world does not make it valid.  Everyone who has a conspiracy theory believes theirs "works."  You happen to like the Marxist theory.  Others prefer the lizard men theory.  But that only tells us about you...it says nothing about what is happening in the world.

Talking your sick kid example, she may get sick every Wednesday because there is a pop quiz.  Or there may be a supply teacher who she only has on Wednesdays who she is afraid of.  Or the Wednesday bus driver may be doing things that make her want to stay at home.  Your theory "works" but that doesn't mean its proven true.  I suggest you ask her and her teacher and get some real facts before jumping to conclusions.

In this case, you have a conspiracy theory with nothing to show by way real facts.  Can you not show something factual that suggests an underlying conspiracy as opposed to a natural disagreement about degree of liberty as opposed to degree of sustainability?

Look buddy, dont try to pidgeon-hole me with your pseudo-intellectual plausible deniability hogwash mental meanderings.

I dont need to have a PHD to know that when my kid is always sick on wednesdays, and the teacher always has a pop quiz on wednesdays, that she doesnt want to take a pop quiz or has not prepared for it. I can add.

You are a Marxist plain and simple. This is not an ad-hominem attack but my opinion from reading much of your litany. We get it. You dont want to work and have everything provided for you paid for by people who do work. We get it ... and you think the overthrow of nation states by lies, manipulation, propaganda, indoctrination and global governance would give that to you if it ever were to ocurr, but it would be the end of you, son. The end of us all. You and those like you are our mortal enemy, and we would destroy you and those like you if ever given the opportunity if you dont change your ways. You have been manipulated and indoctrinated. If not, then you are just plain evil that needs to be destroyed.

Your no causation bullshit and plausible deniability innuendo might be a hinge-pin in deciding guilt or innocence in a corrupted court of law, but thats not the issue here.

While I do care about the history and who, what, when, where, why and how, those are the least important aspects that we can do nothing about, except to use them as evidence that this usurpation can happen and is happening before our eyes, so we can educate and awaken others so that we might be able to come together to combat them.

The facts that need to be taken away from here are that they are doing it and need to be stopped before we have nothing left to defend.

The problem with all the "go read this law" or "go watch that video" stuff is that it rests on a fallacy.  Just because you can show that there is a match between some of what someone said and what actually happened doesn't mean there is causation.  

I can show that the development of banking has followed the pattern set out in the Prototcols of the Elders of Zion.  But that does not prove that the book was real or that there is a causation relationship.  It only proves that there are a certain amount of hours in the day to spare for conspiracy theories and that I chose this book for mine.  You seem to have chosen the Communist Manifesto for your hours that you can spare for conspiracy theories.  There used be a very active group on these forums who chose David Icke for their conspiracy theories.  The important thing here is that no-one can read all the books with their vague mumbo jumbo.  You need to be able to focus on proximate causes, like we can believe George W Bush planned to invade Iraq because of his actions and words but not that he planned 911.

In this thread, you don't seem to have any such link.  Its all exhortation to "go waste weeks reading and watching youtube" which I either can answer "go waste weeks reading and watching youtube" or ask you to provide something concrete.

i agree:

You are delusional.  Making silly ad hominem comments doesn't get around facts.

Go read the UN Charter.

Go Read the Agenda 21 UNCED Action Plan.

Go Read the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto.

Then go research the people, families, businesses, and tax-exempt foundations that created, supported, and funded them,a nd who continues to support and fund them.

Go read your municipal zoning ordinance  legislation.

Go read enviromental legislation.

Go read up on sustainable development in your area. Its everywhere.

Then compare them all to whats happening in the world today from the international agencies right down to your local municipal and city councils, and all spots in between.

Thats enough "written down" info to last you a while.

and please stop attacking the messenger with your ad-hominem attacks, and try debating the message... if you can.

You sound indoctrinated, brainwashed, and like someone who is letting their political agenda get in the way of clear thinking. You might get past it some day. Think harder. Put aside your pet ideology for a change, make a clean slate, and think.

It's clear Hawker, You are a communist and an agitator who attacks American Constitutional ideals. You are an enemy of the Republic for which I stand. God have mercy on your soul.

So you have this massive conspiracy and not a word written down ?  Seems a tad far fetched don't you think?

the problem is you can not ignore them.

they are everywhere, right down to your local municipalities and city council, all the way up to the state, feds, and international orgs.

maybe you should watch the videos.

theres a new movie coming out called http://beholdapalehorse.tv/

Oh I understand what they think it is.  But in reality, it's easy to live sustainably while ignoring them and their fearmongering.

That's your indoctrination talking.

It's soft totalitarianism... for now, but its getting harder and harder each day.

Its about the mob telling you what you can and cannot do with your own personal property.

It has nothing to do with sustainability.

It's about wealth stealing, redistribution of wealth, control, and the end of personal property.

It's about elites regaining all the worlds property and total control of the mob  through NGO's, treasonous treaty ratification, compromised governments and representatives, public private partnerships, and the end of liberty and property rights ... its about controlling you.

Go read the UN Charter and the Agenda 21 UNCED Action Plan.