Topic: An updated Expected Value (EV) analysis for Bitcoin - page 2. (Read 4012 times)

I wish that was the case, but cannot help but think that when the speculative mania hits for real, the infrastructure is still not as reliable that people would be inclined to sell their bitcoins en masse to cap it. Regulations. Taxes. Scams. AML. KYC. Happens too quickly. Fear to lose out when price is +20% per day. I'd say the bubble is almost certain, but of course more muted than the previous one (which was more muted than the one before, and that more than the one before that in 2011).

Funny. Just started forming some thoughts about that yesterday... Short answer: no idea.

Longer answer: I realized I should probably keep the following two events separate, conceptually: 1) price will rise above $1200, 2) there will be another "bubble rally". I'm still inclined to think 1) will take place (or at least, there's a good chance for it), but this is not necessarily only possible in the form of 2). The market has fundamentally changed, maybe. At least for now, it is *strongly* defined by traders removing speculative excess rather quickly (NB: I'm not complaining about that. That's what mature markets tend to do.). So I can see us rising to a new ATH, driven by actual demand, but "bubbles" like of Ye Olde Bitcoin History might be a thing of the past. Or at least, I'm trying to prepare myself for that possibility.

I really enjoyed reading your analysis here, and rpietila's EV analysis above - but I have a question specific to that #3 scenario you mentioned:

If BTC is going to be a "success, sort of" and have the kind of growth that results in ~$2000 in 2020, do you also think that would mean another speculative bubble (or two?) along the way to that point?

I'd say, "fiat is a ponzi, and eventually will fall" is the motivation of those who believe in (4) or (5) distributions, depending on whether they think it'll crumble to dust during their lifetime or only afterwards, I guess

For those among us who aren't exactly sold on that idea, (3) is about as good as it gets, but with plenty of variation still, depending on *how much* of a complement to national currencies crypto will turn out to be.

This is basically (6) "Bitcoin will be chosen from outside as an alternative to failing fiat currencies". It's close to (5) but the motivation behind is somehow different. Not something we (sort of bitcoin believers) are in charge of.

Edit: It's highly unlikely, as I presume bitcoin will just be seen aa a perfect supplementary to the existing monetary infrastructure.

Are we considering at all the likely failure of fiat? With US debt being mathematically impossible to pay off and how interconnected the world economy is, it's just a matter of time. An alternative will be needed, and bitcoin is the most advanced form of money we have ever had. The panopticon portion of the western governments will like it too.

First, as a caveat: Careful with the resurgence of bull threads. Precious little evidence we're out of the bear market yet. Just saying.


That said, I'm in favor of EV calculations like this one. Definitely a lot more motivated (in my opinion) than the extremely speculative pure price extrapolations from historic price data, that almost invariably arrive at stellar values, without evidence or reasons why price should continue to grow like this...


So, here's my take on EV calculations: the individual probability distributions will vary greatly between whoever does calculations of this kind, but I believe, from a more abstract point of view, the following claims hold:

Claim (A): Calculations of this kind, and the distributions over possible outcomes, broadly fall into 5 "classes", namely:

(1) "Bitcoin fails. Completely." - mass centered around near-zero to single digit USD values per coin.
(2) "Bitcoin will fail to gain any serious traction." - mass centered around values that will sound very low to current "bulls", i.e. single digits, at best double digit price, 5 years from now.
(3) "Bitcoin will be a success. Sort of." - mass centered around prices higher than now, but not vastly higher. High triple digits, low quadruple digits.
(4) "Bitcoin will either fail, or take over the world!" - mass centered around very high prices, high quadruple digits easily, but does assign some mass for "total failure" scenarios.
(5) "Bitcoin will take over the world. Practically ensured." Self evident what that one looks like.

Claim (B): A lot of Bitcoin supporters/investors/believers (lots of smart ones as well, Gavin said something to this effect as well, iirc) believe "Either Bitcoin will be worth *a lot*, or practically *nothing*!". In terms of my classification above, that would be distributions of type #4.

Claim (C): This belief, i.e. "scenario #4", is overestimated/overrepresented among investors. In reality, by the "law of the success of the mediocre", something like scenario #3 is more likely, and should be more widely held as the basis of EV calculations.


So much for the more abstract thoughts on this. Practically, like I said, I consider something like #3 to be the best approximation of what could happen in the future... Bitcoin will be a "qualified success". Maybe similar to Linux (occupying a niche for consumers, but also running the show behind the scenes, just not noticeable to most). Or maybe, it'll be more than a niche product, but mainly for functions that don't require extremely high total valuation of the network (i.e. used widely as "ledger", but not "store of value"). With those premises, I arrive at a value of around $2000 for a time period of ~5 years.

Those estimates and how I arrive at them are way too vague to and uncertain to put my (or anyone else's) life savings into it, in my opinion, but over a 5 year horizon I can reasonably see a factor 10 increase of price compared to where we are now - so not a bad point to put some speculative capital into it.

An increase like this would be not quite as drastic as the "Everyone who holds one single coin will be set for life!" meme, but still pretty remarkable if it would happen (and it would require a far from trivial average price increase of 50-60% per year for that 5 year period). But essentially, a calcuation like above is the basis for the "investment" portion of my Bitcoin stash. The "trading" portion doesn't need this motivation though

No no. Hope and "certainty" are not part of successful investing. I believe in 50% probability we'll never reach the ATH again.

Think about it.

But I still take a 60x EV in 5 years with eagerness

Yeah. I joined during the runup to 1k and bought all the way up, then all the way down to the 300s where I stopped because I had 3 times my original target count. Missed the 150 coins. Average price is in the 500s.

I have absolutely no trading instinct and have lost enough to stop trying so I'm holding. But I'm good at logical systems. I have no doubt that we will eventually go far beyond what most people currently think of as the moon. But what a fucking rough way to start.

Utter fools, all of you shall be.

And some as utter fools.

Such a tasty zone were in.  People here will be seen as visionaries

thx 4 sharing

Let's give for the sake of argument some very different probabilities for the scenarios:

1. ($50) = 50%
2. ($500) = 30%
3. ($3000) = 15%
4. ($50k) = 5%.

50*0.5+500*0.3+3000*0.15+50000*0.05 = 25+150+450+2500 = $3,125 EV. That's still a nice 15x gain and still dominated by the fat tail.

If we go extreme and set:

1. ($50) = 75%
2. ($500) = 20%
3. ($3000) = 4%
4. ($50k) = 1%.

50*0.75+500*0.2+3000*0.04+50000*0.01 = 38+100+120+500 = $758 EV. Even now we are talking about an expected 28% annualized gain.

You would have to be in total denial of the width of the scenario universe to believe the previous. But even if:

you completely disregard the possibility of BTC reaching higher than the $3k scenario, and set the $50k to $0, the EV is $258.

That's more than the bonds are paying, right?


TL;DR:
It's possible to speculate on short-term price movements, and I also have a Bitcoin castle to testify it may be successful. But buying and holding is a stellar EV and should definitely be a part of anyone's portfolio who is reading this.

Expected value (EV) is the probability-weighted mean (average) of possible future outcomes.

We are talking Bitcoin, and about 5 years timeframe here, so 2020.

1. Let's start by everyone asking themselves: "What is the probability of Bitcoin price being lower in 2020 than what it is now?"

This scenario includes everything from total technology/network failure to a total breakdown of law and order, or unanimous draconian regulation by every government in the world to kill off everyone who has possession of a string of letters or part thereof, to just a multi-year downtrend in Bitcoin price coupled or uncoupled with increased adoption (2014 is a prime example that price (-80%) and adoption (+100%) do not correlate 1:1).

In a meeting with respected people in the area, the answers ranged from 20-50%, with a clear bias to 20%. Let's use 25% as a median. (The longest time Bitcoin has ever been below its ATH is <2 years, so history is not supporting 5 years of flatlining really.)

2. Then, "What is the probability that we will not reach the ATH in 5 years?"

Counting the major surges alone, we have set a new ATH at $32, $266 and $1242. The first two were taken, each with a 5x or 10x. Now, to be realistic, it may happen that they were isolated incidents, not happening again, but also it's possible that they were not, and there is some merit in the coin, the technology, etc. Of course I could give (and have given) several fundamental reasonings why I believe the latter, but for the purpose of this, let's keep it simple and assume that it can as well happen or not, so 50%.

This naturally includes the case 1., therefore the scenario "anything between 200-1,000 USD" is 25% probable.

3. Now, "if the ATH is reached, what will likely happen?"

Every time previously, once the old ATH was taken, a quick upsurge taking the price to 5x-10x higher in a few weeks followed. Since we are talking conservatively here, let's assume that in half of the cases, it will reach less than that, and the other half is more than that. (In 5 years, which is enough time to fit in the entire Bitcoin price history so far from $0.005 to $200, it is a conservative approach.)

4. Therefore, "In 25% probability of the total scenario universe, Bitcoin will go to higher than $10k in 5 years. How high?"

This is anybody's guess. Until now, the great majority of people who have taken a stand on the subject of Bitcoin price development in any reasonably long-term (2+ years) timeframe, have been proven spectacularly wrong. Bitcoin has exceeded the expectations of most observers.

To assess the average value of a bitcoin in this fat-tail scenario (a scenario where the expected value is dominated by the inordinately high outcomes with low and uncertain probabilities) is difficult, but let's just zoom 2 bubbles forward and assume a 5x on top of 10k.

=>

What we get is 4 scenarios with equal probability:
- $0-200 (mean: $50)
- $200-$1,000 (mean: $500)
- $1k-$10k (mean: $3,000)
- $10k+ (mean: $50k)

The EV for BTCUSD in 2020 is therefore $13,400/BTC. This is 6,000% (60x) higher than the current price. Even if we made gross errors in assessing the probabilities, it's hard to argue that the scenarios themselves are ill-constructed. It is very hard to make holding a position in Bitcoin a losing proposition from here. As people realize what I am saying, it is likely that this will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Beware - 5 years is a long time!