ANARCHO CAPITALISM - debate it here!

Slushpuppy

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Quote from: cbeast on July 19, 2012, 02:43:29 PM

Having served with many volunteer organizations, my observation is that there is always many who offer to be leaders, but few do the actual work. Ancap would be no different. You would have the many taking advanntage of the few.

Voluntary doesn't mean non profit, it means you agree.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Having served with many volunteer organizations, my observation is that there is always many who offer to be leaders, but few do the actual work. Ancap would be no different. You would have the many taking advanntage of the few.

myrkul

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Quote from: MoneyIsDebt on July 19, 2012, 11:29:01 AM

Some of these allow their clients to have guns, some do not.

I read this line:

Quote

Wil smiled in return, hoping his embarrassment didn't show. Part of his present fame was a company hype that he had come to loathe. "Thank you, uh, Big Al. We feel a special obligation to small police companies that serve no-right-to-bear-arms customers. But you're going to have to tell me more. Why so secretive?"

to mean that Al served customers who believed there was no right to bear arms, so, kinda the other way 'round, he caters to those people, rather than not allowing his customers to have guns. Since it's voluntary, either way, the distinction doesn't really matter, though.

MoneyIsDebt

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You guys should really read that Vernor Vinge story.
In the ungoverned lands, you may choose to be customer of a protection agency (police force if you will). Some of these allow their clients to have guns, some do not. So you can choose who protects you, and whether you live in a place where (ordinary) people have guns or not.

myrkul

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Quote from: mystery2048 on July 19, 2012, 03:37:36 AM

Ive got an idea that might be compatible with your political system... Why dont we have zones or areas or cities that allow guns, and those that do not... and see which one people prefer to live in

If one area is full of thugs, criminals, and violence, I am willing to bet that most people will not desire to live there... but in any case, people have a choice and are thus not coerced....

Well, you're certainly free to, if you can get up enough people, set up one of those "no guns allowed" zones. I would advise that it be a gated and well secured community, since there are still people out there that would simply view that as an easy target, if the community were not well defended.

mystery2048

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Ive got an idea that might be compatible with your political system... Why dont we have zones or areas or cities that allow guns, and those that do not... and see which one people prefer to live in

If one area is full of thugs, criminals, and violence, I am willing to bet that most people will not desire to live there... but in any case, people have a choice and are thus not coerced....

myrkul

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Quote from: MoneyIsDebt on July 18, 2012, 05:55:57 AM

Quote from: myrkul on July 17, 2012, 12:15:42 PM

For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.

Great read! Vinge is one of my favourite authors. Thanks for the tip. And a good answer to my question as well.

Glad you liked it! You may have been the first to actually read that once I offered it up. That story, I think, may have actually been my first introduction to AnCap. I can't remember if I read TMIAHM first, or that.

MoneyIsDebt

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Quote from: myrkul on July 17, 2012, 12:15:42 PM

For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.

Great read! Vinge is one of my favourite authors. Thanks for the tip. And a good answer to my question as well.

asdf

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Quote from: jago25_98 on July 17, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership
2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)
3) freedom of trade in people (visas)
4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)

Sadly I think trade needs a little help, it seems under attack from all sides

IP laws are actually a burden on the market.

Government licenses amount to protectionism.

Capitalism functions properly by itself, absent violence.

myrkul

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Quote from: jago25_98 on July 17, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership

Well, this comes down to property rights. Intellectual property (patents, trademarks, etc) aren't property, they're ideas. Other property, however, would be enforced by protection agencies, also called Rights Enforcement Agencies, or by self or third-party defense.

Quote from: jago25_98 on July 17, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)

A private qualification industry, not unlike UL for electronics could certainly be set up, and if a need is there for it, will be.

Quote from: jago25_98 on July 17, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

3) freedom of trade in people (visas)

Uh... Borders? Visas? these are all government creations. People would be free to come and go.

Quote from: jago25_98 on July 17, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)

As land became more scarce, prices would naturally rise. If a landowner did not want their land developed, they simply would not sell.

jago25_98

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Crypto Geek

Is there a mechanism in capitalism to ensure that capitalism is functioning properly?

i.e. something to make sure the market operates in these areas to maintain efficiency:

1) no patents, trademarks, ownership
2) qualifications (i.e. doctors take X years to qualify)
3) freedom of trade in people (visas)
4) land planning (i.e the greenbelt artificially raising prices)

Sadly I think trade needs a little help, it seems under attack from all sides

myrkul

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Quote from: herzmeister on July 17, 2012, 04:29:40 PM

Quote from: Slushpuppy on July 17, 2012, 03:47:18 PM

There are no taxpayers in ancapistan,

before != after

in fact probably this happened many times in history already and brought us into the mess we're in Cheesy

Take a look at Pennsylvania's early history. (to make it easy, here's the link: https://www.mises.org/daily/1865)

herzmeister

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Quote from: Slushpuppy on July 17, 2012, 03:47:18 PM

There are no taxpayers in ancapistan,

before != after

in fact probably this happened many times in history already and brought us into the mess we're in Cheesy

Slushpuppy

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Quote from: MoneyIsDebt on July 17, 2012, 07:38:58 AM

I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?

I dont think you realize just how expensive violence is. The only time violence is profitable is if you can take over a tax base. There are no taxpayers in ancapistan, so violence is a big money sink. Furthermore, the largest army in the world could not subject Afghanistan or Vietnam to their will, how will a person with no tax revenue at all be able to take any region over if the defenders use guerilla warfare?

myrkul

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Quote from: cryptoanarchist on July 17, 2012, 08:49:45 AM

Furthermore, if a society is ancap, what is there to "take over" anyway? There would be no government to take over the reins from. Just a bunch of armed people who love freedom - how are they going to keep such an area occupied?

For a fictionalized account of what might happen if a nation-state invaded an AnCap society, The Ungoverned, by Vernor Vinge is available for free online.

cryptoanarchist

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Quote from: MoneyIsDebt on July 17, 2012, 07:38:58 AM

I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?

If bitcoin succeeds as a decentralized currency, there won't be any states left to "take over".

Furthermore, if a society is ancap, what is there to "take over" anyway? There would be no government to take over the reins from. Just a bunch of armed people who love freedom - how are they going to keep such an area occupied?

MoneyIsDebt

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I'm not just talking about the "guards" within the ancap society. But the U.S. army. The Chinese. The arabs. The lithuanians. Let's say Greece collapses and turns ancap. What's to stop their neighbours from taking over?

asdf

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Quote from: FirstAscent on July 15, 2012, 12:13:17 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 15, 2012, 12:09:08 PM

Quote from: cbeast on July 15, 2012, 12:02:45 PM

There's a lot of choices in life. Just because you choose to be nice, doesn't require anyone else to reciprocate.

No, of course not. Of course, if they choose to initiate force, I am allowed to reciprocate.

Who allows it? Certainly not your aggressor. And to what degree are you capable of reciprocating? Certainly everyone cannot reciprocate effectively in an equal manner.

No one "allows it". The point is that there is no institution sanctioned with the right to initiate force that can prevent it.

asdf

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes yes. Natural monopolies. I am half way through the machinery of freedom. A natural monopoly could change.

Even if it could work, the problem is society. Society would have to accept it. That is a huge jump down in authoritarianism. How does one get to anarcho capitalism? Too many things have to be just so for it to work.

We get there one by having this conversation. one person at a time.

What are the "too many things" that have to be just so? In my opinion, all we need is for people to accept that initiation of force is wrong/counterproductive. Most people already believe this, but have blinders on when it comes to the state.

Once people see that the state is just institutionalised violence established with the premise of solving social problems, it will naturally fall away.

Bitcoin will also help allot (see cryptoananarchist post).

As soon as a natural monopoly "changes" it loses to competition. Without the violence of the state to back it up, it has to cater to is customers.

Slushpuppy

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes yes. Natural monopolies. I am half way through the machinery of freedom. A natural monopoly could change.

Even if it could work, the problem is society. Society would have to accept it. That is a huge jump down in authoritarianism. How does one get to anarcho capitalism? Too many things have to be just so for it to work.

We are progressing towards anarcho capitalism. Think of what the government provides that no one else is. Money, legal system, military. Over the past couple of years we have seen the emergence of non governmental money (bitcoin) and non governmental legalese (http://judge.me) and as far as military, hopefully drones will become cheap enough for everyone to have one. Basucally just kick back and let the free market do its thing, and shut down illogical statists along the way Grin

Topic: ANARCHO CAPITALISM - debate it here! (Read 4246 times)