Topic: Andreas Antonopoulos says to stop using paper wallets, do you agree? - page 3. (Read 1038 times)

I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them? The problem with the decryption key is that you can't make it encrypted because it is pointless from a security perspective, you also don't want it on digital media because that only increases an attack surface. In short, having created more digital copies of your keys, you also must keep more physical copies of your keys to access your digital ones. The more backups you create, the more likely you will lose access to one of them, which may result in losses.

Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.

Plus for real safety and security, especially if someone HODLs millions in Bitcoin, use general computer hardware. Owning a hardware wallet makes you a target.

I see quite often how beginners who did a bit of googling decided that paper wallet is the safest option and plan to create one of those "print out your private key" wallet types from the early days. I completely agree that they are outdated because writing down your seed is better in everything. It doesn't require you to have a trusted printer, because you can write it with pen and paper, it doesn't have a problem with change addresses, it's a bit more resilient to damage, it's much more convenient for sending BTC.

Should hardware wallets be recommended to everyone? Not really, if a person is generally good with using PC, then setting up their own cold storage is a viable alternative.

I was about to say: whether paper or hardware - you're always gonna have a paper or steel backup anyway; so hiding / protecting a seed always needs to be done, no matter which method you use.
I wouldn't say it's easier to copy a hardware wallet's seed than a paper wallet's seed; it's the exact same thing to be honest.

Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards. You can then either just keep the cards and never plug them in unless needed or mount one right away to read the seed and write it to paper. However, it would be smarter to write it off the device's screen, since the computer could be infected and the seed stolen as soon as the card is inserted.

The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.

Well I understand Andreas Antonopoulos and I respect his decision and I agree that a paper wallet is very risky to use most especially if you are new in the crypto world. It is very crucial that if you made a wrong move your coin will permanently lose. It is prone to damage if we are using a paper wallet, there are too many things that could possibly happen upon using this wallet. I would rather hold only a private key of course --this is on the hardware wallet that every time we can encrypt using your private key. However, even what wallet it is if you don't know how to use it will always be risky.

They gain customers if people believe that, so I can't help but think they might be biased.

I'm all for warning Newbies, but I sure hope we don't reach the "don't put your cat in the microwave" level of warnings.

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The funny thing is: paper wallets were amongst the first wallets I've used, and it's the only wallet type from that time I still trust. But only if I made it myself, of course

I am sure that more security experts would agree with that statement, and Trezor developers are even calling paper wallet a relic of the past, a suitable name I would say.
I don't use my old VHS and DVD player anymore, but I guess they could still work just fine for watching movies, even if it's not so easy to find new VHS tapes

Let's not assume ourselves that we know what is better and more secure in regards to paper wallets.
There are so many risks for plebs creating paper wallet that I can't count them all, but main risk is with internet browsers that must be used for generating paper wallet.
I know some people who generated their paper wallets on normal computer with internet connection, using their every day browser.
There is no newbie warning on bitaddress.org website to download page and use offline generation... that is a big red alert and just waiting to be exploited by someone.

Paper can be damaged by water, fire, acid and more things. Quality of print is important too. People can use alternatives like laminate, metal sheet, etc. to store private key. Whaterver method is, you should make sure it is safe enough against physical damages. I agree that paper is bad in this aspect.

Lots of things to remember so our memory has its limits. I don't believe that you can remember private keys or seeds if you don't think of it 1 or 2 months. In addition, what if you suddenly get some health issues that cause memory loss. It will be the end and you will lose your Bitcoin. No one can help you to recover your memory.

It is a first time I know about this approach.

Well, I have been using Paper wallets for years now... and I think if you know what you are doing, then all will be fine. I do not store large
amounts of coins on Paper wallets... but I divided them onto many wallets.   

I actually have several hardware wallets and I can tell you with all honesty that I prefer using my laminated Paper wallets ..over any of my hardware wallets. (Hardware wallets are just easier.. if you want to use some of your coins .....because you do not have to sweep coins onto hot wallets.. if you want to use them) 

I do agree if we only have a wallet wrote on the paper and we don't have any other forms of the wallet, it will be risky.
The safest way to save the seed phrase is remembering the words, but it's hard if we have a lot of wallets and usually crypto investors have many wallets to seperate their investment.
Other way i imagine, saving the phrase into a voice note and save it somewhere, if it tracked by the hackers it's quite hard to detect that if the audio files is the key.

an international currency trader is all you need to be. sounds less geeky to say when introducing yourself to your future second wife after the first divorce

You messed up the quote.

I'm fully aware of this risk, and things that used to be innocent just a few years ago can be suspicious now. I've had my fair share of it already.

Because of OPSEC, we use a codeword at home for "Bitcoin" instead of calling it Bitcoin. As much as I like promoting Bitcoin, I don't want the kids to talk about it at school.

I know that you were joking, but children can get you into trouble unintentionally. LoyceV mentioned one way that can happen. They distract you from your work because you have to pay attention that they don't fall down and injure themselves or they don't destroy something of value.

Let me give you another example. When kids get to a certain age, they start making up stories and innocent lies as their imagination starts running wild. What seems cute, can become troublesome. My friend's little pooper loves playing with me. We wrestle and he pushes me around and it's all fun. Recently, he has started "lying" and making up stories how other people hit him. Sounds cute? Maybe. It's not that cute being asked by the kindergarten teacher if you hit your children. That happened to my friend because his boy was letting his imagination run wild in front of everyone. He also told his teacher that his dad's friend (me) kicked him in the head and body-slammed him to the floor.

If your kids figure out that you are doing something on your computer with Bitcoin and money, that crazy imagination can come alive again and you never know who might be listening or be interested in their stories.

And Andreas explained that in the beginning of his video. Because of that, he isn't wrong when he says that (single-key) paper wallets are obsolete and there are better ways to secure your Bitcoin. 

I would not recommend this. By doing this, you have negated the primary benefit of a paper wallet, in that it is completely non digital. This is no longer a paper wallet - rather it is an encrypted software wallet with a paper back up.

Agreed. The terminology is what is confusing people here. Andreas is using paper wallet to refer to "classic" paper wallets, which are a print out of a single private key and address, and I would agree that such wallets are outdated and expose the user to a number of unnecessary risks which I've talked about in a previous post. The current use of the term paper wallet refers far more broadly to any wallet which is stored solely physically and with no digital copies. The paper wallets I use are seed phrases hand written on paper, but I've also seen people use the term paper wallet to refer to seed phrases stamped on to steel plates with no electronic wallet.

Personally, I respect the opinion of Andreas Antonopoulos because I learned a lot about Bitcoin from his educational videos, podcasts, and books. He is known for his unique ability to explain very complex technical stuff in a language understandable for a complete newbie like I was three years ago. But I don't think I completely agree with Andreas on the question regarding paper wallets because I think it is not paper wallets that became obsolete, it is the very definition of paper wallets that is no longer suitable for the current reality. From my point of view, there is no any difference between a backup of sensitive information handwritten on a piece of paper that gives access to my funds and the same sensitive information, but that was printed on a piece of paper as a QR-code or something. The only difference is in technology that was used to present information, but I don't think it matters. If I write a book by my hand, it is still be considered a book but not a backup of it. Both a paper bitcoin wallet and a backup of a bitcoin wallet are the same thing and should be treated equally. Both require certain knowledge and skill to create securely, both give access to funds, both can be written down or printed as QR-codes. By saying you must not use paper wallets, you also mean you shouldn't have physical copies of your keys, which is obviously wrong.

A paper wallet generated from an air-gapped computer, and the private keys secured properly is I believe just as safe and secure as a hardware wallet. I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.

Then keep it hidden.

As are hardware wallets or computers. Also things like humidity, extremes of temperature, impacts, etc., will damage electronics far easier than they will damage paper.

To follow on from the previous point: You should never find yourself in the situation where damage or loss of a single object will result in complete loss of your funds. With almost all electronic wallets, we back them up on to paper, so if the computer/phone/hardware wallet in question is damaged or lost, we can recover our coins. The same should be the case with paper wallets or any other offline wallets. You should have a minimum of two copies of your paper wallet stored in separate locations, so if one does end up being damaged you can recover from the other one.

This is just basic computing knowledge. Always have back ups of important data.

I'll let you all know my personal thoughts on Papers Wallets.

I believe they are a fundamental part of the history of Bitcoin and cripto-curreny itself, back in the day (I have read) they were the most secure way to store one's Bitcoins, they served a purpose, even thought they had their disadvantages like any other type of Bitcoin Storage.

Time passed, the community evolved and so did the methods of storage and I personally believe that anyone who is holding more than a few hundreds of bucks should get a good, open source Hardware wallet instead printing a Paper Wallet. Of course, I am not saying we should dispose of Paper wallets completely, just because something is "old" or "obsolete" does not mean people need to stay away from it. To this day, there are people that enjoy old cars, old computers, old games, old safes...etc.

So if anyone wants to have their paper wallet, that's ok.
But please do not make it your main wallet with all your satoshis, keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.

You are right but still it would be a lot better to clarify in this video or use the annotation thingy in youtube to direct to other videos. Some newcomers may not watch every video of his and only see this one and never learn more than this.

To be fair A.A. is not the only case that calls paper wallets "obsolete and unsafe" we have bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet) that is doing the same thing. At least the wiki, it was in 2018 that they finally added the seed phrase line (which still isn't enough IMO).

definition of paperwallet is a piece of paper with a private key/seed key wrote on it.
much like a brain wallet is simply remembering the seedkey

andrea's definition is of 2011 "bitnotes" not to be confused with actual paper wallets which are basically any private key/seed wrote on paper

as i said in earlier post andreas is saying paperwallets are complicated.. but he is describing "bitnotes" not paper wallets