I can understand his reasoning to use other wallets than paper wallets, but I don't agree with it. For me the paper wallets are an easy and very secure way to store keys and recovery phrases.
He is not talking about HD wallets and recovery phrases. He is specifically talking about single-key wallets. Meaning you store one address and it's associated private key physically on paper/wood/steal/whatever. That's an outdated way of storing your keys and there are better ways to do it. 
Topic: Andreas Antonopoulos says to stop using paper wallets, do you agree? (Read 1040 times)
January 17, 2022, 04:37:45 AM
January 17, 2022, 04:24:19 AM
I can understand his reasoning to use other wallets than paper wallets, but I don't agree with it. For me the paper wallets are an easy and very secure way to store keys and recovery phrases. You face the risk of losing the paper but as long as you have a copy stored with your family for example you are fine. The risk seems much smaller than being hacked and get your coins stolen online. In the end it comes down to how much money is stored and what security measures I can afford. At the moment I can't really afford a completely offline system as a wallet, there are cheap hardware wallets being sold but I don't really trust it. So storing the recovery information on paper or a steel plate seems as the best approach for the average Joe with small wallets.
January 17, 2022, 04:11:46 AM
what I am wondering is that if a new invention can give same security and safety but in an easier way by getting seed words instead of characters and numbers and in a way more addresses can be generated
~
it will not be hard for me to generate such wallet (but HD) using Electrum on airgapped device
It looks like you've answered your own question: there's no need for a new "invention" if you can do this already without having to trust new software.~
it will not be hard for me to generate such wallet (but HD) using Electrum on airgapped device
It's trivially easy to create a new wallet seed in Electrum from an offline Tails OS, and export 30 (or more) addresses with their private keys:
Code:
dizzy fury already cancel spread hedgehog excuse pottery cancel obey once tragic
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You can create QR-codes too, although I'm not sure if Tails comes with pre-installed software.
Disclaimer for really dumb people: don't use the addresses above
January 17, 2022, 02:52:43 AM
Right, as I said it is just my personal opinion and I still believe paper wallets are okey for users who know what they are doing.
In term of security and safety, paper wallet is good. But what I am wondering is that if a new invention can give same security and safety but in an easier way by getting seed words instead of characters and numbers and in a way more addresses can be generated, why then not following the new invention. If known how paper wallet works and knowing the security risks, paper wallet still remain one of the safetest wallets. But just that it will not be hard for me to generate such wallet (but HD) using Electrum on airgapped device or even hardware wallet in a way to use it as a paper wallet by the seed phrase backup after I total delete the wallet. If we think a bit about it, we could say HW are paper wallets with an easier way to spend/send funds.
No. There is so much difference between hardware wallet and paper wallet. There make up is also very different, paper wallets are not hierarchical deterministic (HD) wallet. 
January 16, 2022, 07:42:55 PM
-snip-
To follow on from the previous point: You should never find yourself in the situation where damage or loss of a single object will result in complete loss of your funds. With almost all electronic wallets, we back them up on to paper, so if the computer/phone/hardware wallet in question is damaged or lost, we can recover our coins. The same should be the case with paper wallets or any other offline wallets. You should have a minimum of two copies of your paper wallet stored in separate locations, so if one does end up being damaged you can recover from the other one.This is just basic computing knowledge. Always have back ups of important data.
Right, as I said it is just my personal opinion and I still believe paper wallets are okey for users who know what they are doing.
If we think a bit about it, we could say HW are paper wallets with an easier way to spend/send funds.
As you say, the important part of cold storage is the backup of the seeds, with that taken care of, most of the cons of any method are quite covered.
January 11, 2022, 02:09:23 AM
There is at least one use case where I would consider using them: to explain to others about bitcoin key-pairs.
I have never used a paper wallet before but I read about HD wallets, keys and addresses to understand all these. If someone wants to know more about bitcoin, this can be explained in HD wallets because the child private keys and child public keys are paired with the addresses, while the child private key can be used as backup. As for me, it depends, but I would not recommend paper wallet generated on sites especially for newbies as a result of mnemonic or seed phrase which are just words and easy to backup if using HD wallet like Electrum.
If HD wallet can be used as a paper wallet by generating the seed phrase, keys and addresses offline on a secure and safe offline device while the seed phrase is properly backup in different locations safe from attackers and damages. I prefer this method which has been what I am using and very safe.
Sure, electrum might be the easiest tool that currently exists for obtaining a single key. But is it more efficient than, say, bitaddress or iancoleman? At those places, all you have to do is click on a Generate button - no wallet creation is required.
All that is required is for people to know how to safely generate a single key wallet, multiple individual single keys can be generated on Electrum with their corresponding addresses but BIP38 encryption is not possible using Electrum if that option is needed. In my opinion, I see all methods to be very easy for a technical person that knows about it very well if not making any mistake. 
January 10, 2022, 03:26:09 AM
How about 2 metal backups?
Certainly preferable to one metal back up.Here's another thing to think about, though: Let's think of some of the things that steel protects against which paper won't - catastrophic fires, corrosion, etc. If my house has suffered some kind of devastating fire or explosion, or is now underwater, or has somehow had gallons of a corrosive substance dumped on to it, which of the following is more likely? I spend potentially days manually sifting through rubble and debris looking for my back up, or I simply go and retrieve my second back up? I might not even be allowed to enter the area due to safety concerns, or indeed able to enter the area if there is severe flooding, for example. Hell, maybe I want my back up to be destroyed so it doesn't wash up on a street somewhere for someone else to find or be found by a first responder.
It's all about your individual threat model, but multiple paper back ups work just fine.
I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search.
Don't use Google is the first step here, since it allows scammers to pay to boost their sites to the the top of your search results. But also, download it from GitHub and verify it against the hashes provided which are signed with Ian Coleman's PGP key.
THAT’s another one of those basic technical things that Bitcoin users/plebs like me are REQUIRED to learn, or lose your coins, and learn the hard way. The likelihood of getting hacked might be small, but not learning the technical “inconveniences” will make attack vectors against you bigger.
January 09, 2022, 07:03:37 AM
How about 2 metal backups?
Certainly preferable to one metal back up.Here's another thing to think about, though: Let's think of some of the things that steel protects against which paper won't - catastrophic fires, corrosion, etc. If my house has suffered some kind of devastating fire or explosion, or is now underwater, or has somehow had gallons of a corrosive substance dumped on to it, which of the following is more likely? I spend potentially days manually sifting through rubble and debris looking for my back up, or I simply go and retrieve my second back up? I might not even be allowed to enter the area due to safety concerns, or indeed able to enter the area if there is severe flooding, for example. Hell, maybe I want my back up to be destroyed so it doesn't wash up on a street somewhere for someone else to find or be found by a first responder.
It's all about your individual threat model, but multiple paper back ups work just fine.
I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search.
Don't use Google is the first step here, since it allows scammers to pay to boost their sites to the the top of your search results. But also, download it from GitHub and verify it against the hashes provided which are signed with Ian Coleman's PGP key. January 09, 2022, 06:12:45 AM
Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.
Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet.It didn't sound like shilling to me, but in the video linked by ChiBitCTy in the OP when Andreas suggested hardware wallets he did mention Cold Card by name. He was commenting that the Cold Card allows one to enter his own entropy when generating a seed. Again, it didn't sound like shilling, more like commenting that a particular hardware wallet offers a fairly unique feature.
He is truly that good in the art of shilling, without shilling. It’s like Joe Rogan, he finds his opportunities in his show to talk about the products he shills without shilling them, making the shill look more authentic, natural, and believable.
January 08, 2022, 11:44:14 PM
There is at least one use case where I would consider using them: to explain to others about bitcoin key-pairs.
January 08, 2022, 11:19:09 PM
If someone wanted a single key Electrum would probably be the easiest tool to use, there's no reason not to. The Ian Coleman tool can be used as well, and allows you to enter your own entropy. There's no reason not to use an HD wallet to extract a single key.
I can't really trust the Ian Coleman tool anymore, there are way too many fake copies hovering around google search. (I once had a scare when the iancoleman.io website had a bunch of misspellings/mispronunciations in the title, making me think that it was compromised).
Sure, electrum might be the easiest tool that currently exists for obtaining a single key. But is it more efficient than, say, bitaddress or iancoleman? At those places, all you have to do is click on a Generate button - no wallet creation is required.
Quote
unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed.
How is shredding a CD-R easier than just burning a piece of paper?Quote
Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.
CD shredders are more expensive than paper shredders.I was thinking more in line of just smashing the CD-R like Direwolf. No words on whether the result is recoverable, as the disk sectors run circularly around the disk.
January 08, 2022, 11:37:18 AM
Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.
Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet.It didn't sound like shilling to me, but in the video linked by ChiBitCTy in the OP when Andreas suggested hardware wallets he did mention Cold Card by name. He was commenting that the Cold Card allows one to enter his own entropy when generating a seed. Again, it didn't sound like shilling, more like commenting that a particular hardware wallet offers a fairly unique feature.
I'd be taking a blowtorch to it.
"There are very few problems in this world that can't be solved with a gallon of diesel and a match."
- "Burner" (a retired Navy Seal I used to know.)
If you like metal back ups, then use them, and I accept they have some significant advantages over paper. But metal back ups are still not 100% guaranteed to be readable or even still be there when you come back to them. Two separate paper back ups is more secure than a single metal back up.
How about 2 metal backups? 
I reckon the only advantage of paper vs metal is that it's cheaper, so you can make more of them. But 2 backups should suffice for most scenarios and the biggest investment is the letter stamps which you only need to buy once. I think you can do 2 washer backups for around 5€ / $5 with a 24-pack of washers (stamp a word on each side, so 12 washers per backup for 24 word seeds), two screws and two nuts.
Steel will make good backups, but not all steel washers are the same, you still need to chose the right materials. Washers, nuts, and bolts better be stainless (which is a bit more expensive) if you want them to survive fire or flooding. Galvanized (zinc) or other coatings (tin, nickel) often found on washers will melt long before the steel does in a house fire, and could fill all your stampings making them illegible. If your backups are exposed to caustic compounds during a flood, the coatings on your washers could corrode or oxidize, again leaving you with illegible stampings. Steel isn't the panacea that some want to make it, and could lead many to a false sense of security.
January 08, 2022, 09:02:53 AM
If you like metal back ups, then use them, and I accept they have some significant advantages over paper. But metal back ups are still not 100% guaranteed to be readable or even still be there when you come back to them. Two separate paper back ups is more secure than a single metal back up.
How about 2 metal backups? I reckon the only advantage of paper vs metal is that it's cheaper, so you can make more of them. But 2 backups should suffice for most scenarios and the biggest investment is the letter stamps which you only need to buy once. I think you can do 2 washer backups for around 5€ / $5 with a 24-pack of washers (stamp a word on each side, so 12 washers per backup for 24 word seeds), two screws and two nuts.
January 08, 2022, 03:44:27 AM
Most people won't have access to, or skills to use fancy equipment to make steel backups, and the steel products to store seeds can often be prohibitively expensive for many.
I've said multiple times before that all my paper wallets and paper back ups are on paper and I generally don't use steel or metal back ups. Yes, paper is cheaper, easier to work with, etc., but the main reason is this: I have redundancy. You should never have a single back up of anything, particularly not your seed phrase or bitcoin wallets. A minimum of two back ups in two separate locations is necessary. Now, what are the chances that a paper wallet in my house is destroyed in a fire and a duplicate paper wallet stored in safe deposit box at a bank in another city is also destroyed at the same time? Vanishingly small.If you like metal back ups, then use them, and I accept they have some significant advantages over paper. But metal back ups are still not 100% guaranteed to be readable or even still be there when you come back to them. Two separate paper back ups is more secure than a single metal back up.
It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.
There is this tool from user Coding Enthusiast which will turn coin flipping entropy in to a seed phrase or private key: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/handydandy-a-tool-to-work-with-entropy-5373505. It doesn't go as far as generating addresses, though.I could probably snap a CD into a few pieces with my bare hands, but I don't think my mother could. She would certainly need a $5 wrench.
I would not be happy with one or two large snaps across a CD to know for sure that data could not be recovered from that CD. If you don't have a shredder, I'd be taking a blowtorch to it. January 08, 2022, 02:22:16 AM
When properly stored paper can survive for thousands of years,
I just want to add that there is nothing stopping people from creating multiple backups. One could even go as far as using a bank's safety deposit box. You just encrypt your key/mnemonic with a strong password and put it on a piece of paper and place that paper in the safety deposit box. Even if you lose the copy at home for whatever reason, there is still a backup in a safe place that can't be accessed by others.Hal Finney said in one of his later posts that he kept his keys in a safety deposit box with instructions in how to retrieve the coins for his kids. I believe he made that post after he was diagnosed with ALS. I conclude that he used an air-gapped computer.
January 08, 2022, 01:21:27 AM
When properly stored paper can survive for thousands of years,
I just want to add that there is nothing stopping people from creating multiple backups. One could even go as far as using a bank's safety deposit box. You just encrypt your key/mnemonic with a strong password and put it on a piece of paper and place that paper in the safety deposit box. Even if you lose the copy at home for whatever reason, there is still a backup in a safe place that can't be accessed by others. January 08, 2022, 12:31:05 AM
Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated.
The issue here is that having a completely air-gapped device is not necessarily a straightforward thing to achieve. There is a degree of technical knowledge required and should really require the physical removal of hardware. Many people don't do this though, and simply turn off their WiFi or Bluetooth, which isn't really airgapped but many people think it is. You should format the device and install a brand new clean and verified open source OS, but again, many people just use Windows and some don't even format it at all. There is a risk that you accidentally re-enable some piece of connectivity in the future and completely ruin your airgap.
Technical knowledge, or having none of it is not the debate is all about. It was the feasibility, and security of the method of digital back ups of keys generated from air-gapped computer hardware.
Plus it can be debated that HODLers, newbies or not, of self-sovereign money SHOULD learn many of the technical methods to store their wealth securely.
Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.
Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet.
I respect him, but tin-foil hats on, he will.
January 07, 2022, 03:57:33 PM
Please fasten your flame retardant suit, because I'm going to have to nitpick your statements here:
If someone wanted a single key Electrum would probably be the easiest tool to use, there's no reason not to. The Ian Coleman tool can be used as well, and allows you to enter your own entropy. There's no reason not to use an HD wallet to extract a single key.
Again, I beg to differ. When properly stored paper can survive for thousands of years, and there's plenty of proof of that. The archival resilience of CDs, on the other hand is only theoretical, and CDs require equipment that is slowly going obsolete. Even if they don't go away all together, their use will diminish to the point that the equipment to read them will become somewhat expensive.
As for destroying the unneeded used keys, once it's served it's usefulness paper is easily destroyed with nothing more expensive than a match. I could probably snap a CD into a few pieces with my bare hands, but I don't think my mother could. She would certainly need a $5 wrench.
It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.
It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites. For the record, even legit websites like bitaddress.org are not safe to generate private keys on, because the HTML can be manipulated by an Inspect Element or something like that.
Electrum and Core are too complicated for just generating a paper wallet, for newbies.
It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites. For the record, even legit websites like bitaddress.org are not safe to generate private keys on, because the HTML can be manipulated by an Inspect Element or something like that.
Electrum and Core are too complicated for just generating a paper wallet, for newbies.
If someone wanted a single key Electrum would probably be the easiest tool to use, there's no reason not to. The Ian Coleman tool can be used as well, and allows you to enter your own entropy. There's no reason not to use an HD wallet to extract a single key.
Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve - already rat-proof, not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that - and, unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed. Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.
Again, I beg to differ. When properly stored paper can survive for thousands of years, and there's plenty of proof of that. The archival resilience of CDs, on the other hand is only theoretical, and CDs require equipment that is slowly going obsolete. Even if they don't go away all together, their use will diminish to the point that the equipment to read them will become somewhat expensive.
As for destroying the unneeded used keys, once it's served it's usefulness paper is easily destroyed with nothing more expensive than a match. I could probably snap a CD into a few pieces with my bare hands, but I don't think my mother could. She would certainly need a $5 wrench.
January 07, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.
It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites.
I already don't like the word "install": it should work from a Live Linux CD. But even if someone would create it, there's a lot of trust required to boot your computer with that CD and trust the software to do what it says.It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites.
Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve
According to this website, CD-Rs last anywhere from 5 to >100 years. I wouldn't risk my funds on them.Quote
not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that
A laminator is much cheaper and much better against water than a safe.Quote
unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed.
How is shredding a CD-R easier than just burning a piece of paper?Quote
Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.
CD shredders are more expensive than paper shredders. January 07, 2022, 10:58:46 AM
He probably means those famous paper wallet generating websites. If you make your own paper wallets yourself using a trusted wallet like electrum or core, I don't think there is any harm doing so. A paper wallet is just a paper which keeps your private keys and nothing else. You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet. That's how I imagine a paper wallet whenever I hear it.
It would be better if there was specialized software that you can download and install that is just for generating a paper wallet.
It is quite surprising that nobody has attempted to make such a program yet, forcing everyone to rely on these unsafe websites. For the record, even legit websites like bitaddress.org are not safe to generate private keys on, because the HTML can be manipulated by an Inspect Element or something like that.
Electrum and Core are too complicated for just generating a paper wallet, for newbies.
Paper is easily destroyed by the likes of water and rats though. Better would be inside a text file on a CD-R in a storage sleeve - already rat-proof, not really waterproof but that can be solved by putting the sleeve in a safe or something like that - and, unlike paper wallets, are easily destroyed when they are no longer needed. Now there isn't really a use case for destroying paper wallets besides protecting your privacy by hiding the addresses you used, but you'd need to buy an expensive paper shredder to do the equivalent for paper wallets. A CD can be destroyed cheaply.
January 07, 2022, 10:39:22 AM
Been a while since I watched his recent stuff, long time admirer here, but didn't know he'd be pushing a hardware wallet -- never mind that.
I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.
But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.
Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.
I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.
But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.
Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.
Same thing with me. The first detailed article/book or whatever you want to call in that I ever read was Andreas's Mastering Bitcoin book. Now at the time I didn't realize that it was really geared towards coders, but there was still enough in there to learn a good amount about bitcoin. I hold Andreas in a really high regard, but of late I've started to kind of question the way he approaches certain topics. He did a very poor job here explaining paper wallets and the difference between them and hardware. He should have been much more specific.
January 07, 2022, 10:33:01 AM
I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper. He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
Like I mentioned previously, he seems to be catering for the masses by using a blanket statement for the less technically minded which to be honest isn't a bad idea at all. I wish he was a little more clear that paper wallets aren't exactly a bad idea, and are just as secure, and maybe even more secure in certain instances, but does require some sort of proficiency, and understanding to secure well. Whereas, most hardware wallets protect from the common pitfalls, and are easier, while being decently secure to just plug, and play.I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
Obviously, there's still things that can go wrong, but I get the idea hes trying to push out there. Its time we start looking for as much adoption as possible, and making Bitcoin less complex, and therefore more accessible to the general user is how we would go about achieving that.
You bring up a good point about security. Properly stored and protected paper wallets are about as secure as you can get, and paper is among the best media for archival purposes. Andreas kind of glossed over the methods for storing seeds, yet for the masses, paper is one of the more practical methods of doing so. Most people won't have access to, or skills to use fancy equipment to make steel backups, and the steel products to store seeds can often be prohibitively expensive for many.
As for single private-keys that are printed out for storage or use of bitcoin, I tend to agree with him that there are better options. Personally I find single keys to be the best method of giving bitcoin as a gift in physical form, whether just a piece of paper or a DIY coin. I'll still be using them for those purposes from time to time.
January 07, 2022, 08:23:47 AM
I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper. He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
Like I mentioned previously, he seems to be catering for the masses by using a blanket statement for the less technically minded which to be honest isn't a bad idea at all. I wish he was a little more clear that paper wallets aren't exactly a bad idea, and are just as secure, and maybe even more secure in certain instances, but does require some sort of proficiency, and understanding to secure well. Whereas, most hardware wallets protect from the common pitfalls, and are easier, while being decently secure to just plug, and play.I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
Obviously, there's still things that can go wrong, but I get the idea hes trying to push out there. Its time we start looking for as much adoption as possible, and making Bitcoin less complex, and therefore more accessible to the general user is how we would go about achieving that.
January 07, 2022, 08:06:26 AM
if a paper wallet requires an airgaped PC, a printer. .. its not a paper wallet
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.
Creating a random private key (flipping coins) is easy, but how do you get a Bitcoin address without using a PC?a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.
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heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see
You're not supposed to trust the transaction on your web extension, but instead you verify the transaction on the hardware wallet's display. 
January 07, 2022, 07:33:05 AM
if a paper wallet requires an airgaped PC, a printer. .. its not a paper wallet
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.
andrea's scare tactics using "bitnotes" which require airgapped computer and printer. still doesnt shake me with fear of my paper and pen "paperwallet" nor does his scare tactic inspire me to buy a hardware wallet.
though a hardware wallet is secure in regards to the privkey. by having them only display a gui via a webbrowser extension app, or a app you download from things like trezor.ioa dds an element of risk. EG trojans/browser plug-ins/extensions that can replace browser text fields 'payment address' with a scammers address.
heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see
so a hardware wallet still has the same risk when it comes time to spend value, and also just checking for balance updates(new confirmed transactions)
a true paper wallet is at most: paper and a pen.
andrea's scare tactics using "bitnotes" which require airgapped computer and printer. still doesnt shake me with fear of my paper and pen "paperwallet" nor does his scare tactic inspire me to buy a hardware wallet.
though a hardware wallet is secure in regards to the privkey. by having them only display a gui via a webbrowser extension app, or a app you download from things like trezor.ioa dds an element of risk. EG trojans/browser plug-ins/extensions that can replace browser text fields 'payment address' with a scammers address.
heck. someone can hack the trezor site and replace the 'trezor suite web app' with a hacked web extension. and thus the hacked extension can write its own transactions but display a false transaction it wants the user to see
so a hardware wallet still has the same risk when it comes time to spend value, and also just checking for balance updates(new confirmed transactions)
January 07, 2022, 07:27:14 AM
Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated.
The issue here is that having a completely air-gapped device is not necessarily a straightforward thing to achieve. There is a degree of technical knowledge required and should really require the physical removal of hardware. Many people don't do this though, and simply turn off their WiFi or Bluetooth, which isn't really airgapped but many people think it is. You should format the device and install a brand new clean and verified open source OS, but again, many people just use Windows and some don't even format it at all. There is a risk that you accidentally re-enable some piece of connectivity in the future and completely ruin your airgap.Meanwhile, a piece of paper is a piece of paper. There is no middle ground and no room to compromise. It is always offline.
Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.
Genuine question: Has he ever recommended a specific brand of hardware wallet? I'm not aware that he has, and if not, then it would be an incredibly ineffective campaign for any specific hardware wallet manufacturer to promote users buying any hardware wallet. January 07, 2022, 05:52:41 AM
I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper. He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
Tin-foil hats on. Andreas Antonopoulos is secretly being sponsored by a hardware wallet manufacturer to go around the world, do his talks about Bitcoin, and to tell newbies that “paper wallets bad, buy hardware wallets good”.
January 06, 2022, 12:56:59 PM
I’ve only ever used paper wallets in 2014 & 2015 when I was a newbie. I don’t use them now & don’t plan to ever again. Just stick with Trezor & you won’t go far wrong. They have a long history of good service & impenetrable security.
January 06, 2022, 11:13:29 AM
I can't disagree with most of what Andreas said, which I perceive to be advocating Bip32 HD wallets over single private keys stored on paper. He does specifically endorse the use of a purpose-built hardware wallet over other methods of generating seed phrases.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
I do partially take issue with his statements about air-gapped PCs with open source OSs, however. Again, he seemed to be specifically opposed to their use to generate single private keys for printing, he never specifically opposed their use for generating seed phrases. Although I think using a properly air-gapped laptop/pc with an open-source OS is still quite safe, I tend to agree with Andreas that it takes a bit of technical know-how that could lead to mistakes by newbies.
January 06, 2022, 02:16:11 AM
You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet.
Writing down private keys is prone to mistakes. I've seen people lose their funds because they can't decipher their own handwriting. 
January 06, 2022, 01:19:05 AM
He probably means those famous paper wallet generating websites. If you make your own paper wallets yourself using a trusted wallet like electrum or core, I don't think there is any harm doing so. A paper wallet is just a paper which keeps your private keys and nothing else. You can write down your private keys on a random piece of paper and it will become a paper wallet. That's how I imagine a paper wallet whenever I hear it.
January 06, 2022, 01:10:05 AM
Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.
I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them? The problem with the decryption key is that you can't make it encrypted because it is pointless from a security perspective, you also don't want it on digital media because that only increases an attack surface. In short, having created more digital copies of your keys, you also must keep more physical copies of your keys to access your digital ones. The more backups you create, the more likely you will lose access to one of them, which may result in losses.
We’re talking about a paper wallet generated in an air-gapped computer. Everything is done OFFLINE, so it would be impossible for an attacker to gain access to your private keys generated. To back up your private keys, print them, write them down, or copy them in a text file stored in USB, then encrypt them in case someone finds/steals the USB.
January 05, 2022, 01:51:10 PM
thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works
Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also January 05, 2022, 01:31:11 PM
Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards.
Physical backup on paper/metal is almost always better than any using digital backup like microSD cards even if they are encrypted, but it's not a bad idea to have multiple options in case one of them fails.I think that Coldcard and Bitbox02 hardware wallets are doing something similar like Passport with SD card backup.
The Coldcard and both BitBox 01 and 02 allow for SD card backups as well.
I reckon it's still much better than no backup at all (for anyone too lazy to write 12 words on a piece of paper and maybe laminating it).
The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.
Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works
Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also Even to the point where pure long-term storage isn't safer using a hardware wallet at all, since you'll end up with a paper backup anyway, which is susceptible to the same risks that a pure paper wallet would be. You're adding tech, but still keeping the seed on paper, so for pure storage there's no 'improvement' unlike car vs horse.
I would argue that it's more convenient and safer (less room for mistakes) to spend coins when kept on a hardware wallet though, and also that the seed generation is safer for most people when they use a hardware wallet.
January 05, 2022, 01:04:40 PM
I was about to say: whether paper or hardware - you're always gonna have a paper or steel backup anyway; so hiding / protecting a seed always needs to be done, no matter which method you use.
This is true, but you would be surprised how many (dumb) people don't have backup phrase on paper, and they ae only depending on hardware wallet device to keep everything. Difference is that you are writing backup yourself with your own hand or metal tools, and for paper wallet printer is doing all the work.
Actually, one scenario comes to mind where the person has a backed-up hardware wallet without ever writing it on paper / exposing it to potential spy cameras or anything like that. That's with a device like the Foundation Passport. It allows you to insert a microSD card, back the device up to the card and even do it to multiple cards.
Physical backup on paper/metal is almost always better than any using digital backup like microSD cards even if they are encrypted, but it's not a bad idea to have multiple options in case one of them fails.I think that Coldcard and Bitbox02 hardware wallets are doing something similar like Passport with SD card backup.
The idea about SeedSigner is not mainly for creating paper wallets (in my opinion) but allowing you to also sign transactions (hence the name) while keeping the wallet / seed itself actually offline. It has a camera which can temporarily import the seed through QR code into RAM so it's wiped when power is plugged.
Seedsigner is a nice idea, but problem is that Raspberry Pi Zero and all components for making is hard to find know because of supply chain issue, or it's more expensive to buy.thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works
Yeah, just like riding a horse and driving first automobiles from 1900 still works and it's nothing fancy also 
January 05, 2022, 12:36:01 PM
I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.
In another video, he answered when someone asked him what is a best wallet. He answered that the best wallet depends on each person and at different time. A good wallet today can be worse than others in future. I think his answer is solid. Paper wallet is good, hardware wallet is good and depends on each person, with different budget and knowledge to use it.Bitcoin Q&A: How Do I Choose a Wallet?
Quote
But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.
I think it is main objectives of his Youtube channel. January 05, 2022, 10:41:08 AM
that being said i had an awful few minutes once when i swept a paper wallet wrong and almost donated the change to the miners. luckily the change went back to the original addy in my case. but it sucked waiting lol
After offline signing, I always verify the raw transaction (on a different device) before broadcasting. Being paranoid works 
January 05, 2022, 09:29:55 AM
I see quite often how beginners who did a bit of googling decided that paper wallet is the safest option and plan to create one of those "print out your private key" wallet types from the early days. I completely agree that they are outdated because writing down your seed is better in everything. It doesn't require you to have a trusted printer, because you can write it with pen and paper, it doesn't have a problem with change addresses, it's a bit more resilient to damage, it's much more convenient for sending BTC.
thing is, those old school private key paper "wallets" still work. exactly as they did 10 years ago, and will 10 years from now. nothing fancy.. just works
seeds are better now but i used straight up paper wallets back in the day and as long as you know what you were doing they work.
that being said i had an awful few minutes once when i swept a paper wallet wrong and almost donated the change to the miners. luckily the change went back to the original addy in my case. but it sucked waiting lol
January 05, 2022, 08:08:39 AM
Been a while since I watched his recent stuff, long time admirer here, but didn't know he'd be pushing a hardware wallet -- never mind that.
I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.
But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.
Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.
I like the idea of paper wallets, and I don't think those who do know how to use them should forget about them, but because I have evolving needs, I now prefer hardware wallet too. I like o_e_l_e_o's way of putting it: threat model. We should use the methods suited to our threat models.
But I also think that like most of his videos (if not all), his point is always for the newcomer. All things considered, it's dumber (easier) and more secure to not use paper wallets for the majority of people coming to Bitcoin new. Probably even for most long-timers.
Now a few weeks ago, I had to search ages for something I hadn't accessed in over 8 years. Still couldn't find it. Hasn't happened with my Bitcoin but I think about it (and check on it) often heh.
January 05, 2022, 07:34:45 AM
I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.
That's fine for you, if you think that is your best method of securely backing things up and doing so fits your threat model. However, I personally still wouldn't recommend it. As we've discussed in this thread, there is no one right answer here.Although you definitely cannot call such a set up a paper wallet anymore. That is a digital wallet with paper back ups.
I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them?
If I have my encrypted seed phrase stored digitally, and the decryption key written on paper, then someone needs to compromise two things to access my coins, as opposed to just one thing if my seed phrase is simply written or printed on paper directly. I would still recommend against storing your seed phrase digitally though, since you are still trusting the hardware you use, the encryption software, that you aren't leaving behind unencrypted traces, that there is no malware spying on the process, etc.If you want your wallet to require the compromise of two things rather rather just one, then either use an additional complex passphrase, or use a multi-sig set up, with all the relevant data stored on separate pieces of paper in separate locations.
January 05, 2022, 05:55:52 AM
Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.
I don't understand. Could you explain why the existence of encrypted digital keys should make you feel more secure and comfortable especially considering the fact that they are practically useless without the secret key that is required to decrypt them? The problem with the decryption key is that you can't make it encrypted because it is pointless from a security perspective, you also don't want it on digital media because that only increases an attack surface. In short, having created more digital copies of your keys, you also must keep more physical copies of your keys to access your digital ones. The more backups you create, the more likely you will lose access to one of them, which may result in losses. January 05, 2022, 02:21:17 AM
I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.
I would not recommend this. By doing this, you have negated the primary benefit of a paper wallet, in that it is completely non digital. This is no longer a paper wallet - rather it is an encrypted software wallet with a paper back up.
Quote the whole post for context. We are using an air-gapped computer in that example. I personally have both physical, and digital back ups of my keys for my cold storage. I feel more secure with my digital back ups because I have them encrypted.
Plus for real safety and security, especially if someone HODLs millions in Bitcoin, use general computer hardware. Owning a hardware wallet makes you a target.
January 04, 2022, 06:53:20 PM
I see quite often how beginners who did a bit of googling decided that paper wallet is the safest option and plan to create one of those "print out your private key" wallet types from the early days. I completely agree that they are outdated because writing down your seed is better in everything. It doesn't require you to have a trusted printer, because you can write it with pen and paper, it doesn't have a problem with change addresses, it's a bit more resilient to damage, it's much more convenient for sending BTC.
Should hardware wallets be recommended to everyone? Not really, if a person is generally good with using PC, then setting up their own cold storage is a viable alternative.
Should hardware wallets be recommended to everyone? Not really, if a person is generally good with using PC, then setting up their own cold storage is a viable alternative.
January 04, 2022, 06:31:35 PM
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the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys
That's a perfect use case for paper wallets, they're much easier to copy than hardware.I wouldn't say it's easier to copy a hardware wallet's seed than a paper wallet's seed; it's the exact same thing to be honest.
While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera.
So use one or more passphrases.All of these supposed "weaknesses" of paper wallets are weaknesses of every wallet which you back up your seed phrase on paper. By creating a wallet, backing it up on paper, and then destroying the electronic copy, then I am only removing some vectors of attack.
QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.
This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
That's a terrible system This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
It's far more work than just entering the 12 seed words, and it's far less reliable than using a cheap old laser printer.
January 04, 2022, 04:29:06 PM
Well I understand Andreas Antonopoulos and I respect his decision and I agree that a paper wallet is very risky to use most especially if you are new in the crypto world. It is very crucial that if you made a wrong move your coin will permanently lose. It is prone to damage if we are using a paper wallet, there are too many things that could possibly happen upon using this wallet. I would rather hold only a private key of course --this is on the hardware wallet that every time we can encrypt using your private key. However, even what wallet it is if you don't know how to use it will always be risky.
January 04, 2022, 04:13:55 PM
Trezor developers are even calling paper wallet a relic of the past
They gain customers if people believe that, so I can't help but think they might be biased.Should never have put the temporary illusion of safety above personal liberty..
I'm all for warning Newbies, but I sure hope we don't reach the "don't put your cat in the microwave" level of warnings.The funny thing is: paper wallets were amongst the first wallets I've used, and it's the only wallet type from that time I still trust. But only if I made it myself, of course
January 04, 2022, 03:56:08 PM
To be fair A.A. is not the only case that calls paper wallets "obsolete and unsafe" we have bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet) that is doing the same thing. At least the wiki, it was in 2018 that they finally added the seed phrase line (which still isn't enough IMO).
I am sure that more security experts would agree with that statement, and Trezor developers are even calling paper wallet a relic of the past, a suitable name I would say.I don't use my old VHS and DVD player anymore, but I guess they could still work just fine for watching movies, even if it's not so easy to find new VHS tapes
Let's not assume ourselves that we know what is better and more secure in regards to paper wallets.
There are so many risks for plebs creating paper wallet that I can't count them all, but main risk is with internet browsers that must be used for generating paper wallet.
I know some people who generated their paper wallets on normal computer with internet connection, using their every day browser.
There is no newbie warning on bitaddress.org website to download page and use offline generation... that is a big red alert and just waiting to be exploited by someone.
January 04, 2022, 12:29:12 PM
I do agree if we only have a wallet wrote on the paper and we don't have any other forms of the wallet, it will be risky.
Paper can be damaged by water, fire, acid and more things. Quality of print is important too. People can use alternatives like laminate, metal sheet, etc. to store private key. Whaterver method is, you should make sure it is safe enough against physical damages. I agree that paper is bad in this aspect.Quote
The safest way to save the seed phrase is remembering the words, but it's hard if we have a lot of wallets and usually crypto investors have many wallets to seperate their investment.
Lots of things to remember so our memory has its limits. I don't believe that you can remember private keys or seeds if you don't think of it 1 or 2 months. In addition, what if you suddenly get some health issues that cause memory loss. It will be the end and you will lose your Bitcoin. No one can help you to recover your memory.Quote
Other way i imagine, saving the phrase into a voice note and save it somewhere, if it tracked by the hackers it's quite hard to detect that if the audio files is the key.
It is a first time I know about this approach. January 04, 2022, 12:28:12 PM
Well, I have been using Paper wallets for years now... and I think if you know what you are doing, then all will be fine. I do not store large
amounts of coins on Paper wallets... but I divided them onto many wallets.
I actually have several hardware wallets and I can tell you with all honesty that I prefer using my laminated Paper wallets ..over any of my hardware wallets. (Hardware wallets are just easier.. if you want to use some of your coins .....because you do not have to sweep coins onto hot wallets.. if you want to use them)
amounts of coins on Paper wallets... but I divided them onto many wallets.
I actually have several hardware wallets and I can tell you with all honesty that I prefer using my laminated Paper wallets ..over any of my hardware wallets. (Hardware wallets are just easier.. if you want to use some of your coins .....because you do not have to sweep coins onto hot wallets.. if you want to use them)
January 04, 2022, 11:56:15 AM
andreas antonopoulus said to stop using paper wallets, paper wallets are cold storage, our wallets are stored offline, many people say paper wallets are the safest wallets, but personally I agree with andreas antonopoulus, because there are so many risks involved we face if we use a paper wallet, everyone who sees it must be very easy to steal it, pieces of paper are also easily damaged, flammable and easily exposed to water, so I agree with andreas' opinion, I will leave the old method and I prefer to use the new method ..
I do agree if we only have a wallet wrote on the paper and we don't have any other forms of the wallet, it will be risky.
The safest way to save the seed phrase is remembering the words, but it's hard if we have a lot of wallets and usually crypto investors have many wallets to seperate their investment.
Other way i imagine, saving the phrase into a voice note and save it somewhere, if it tracked by the hackers it's quite hard to detect that if the audio files is the key.
January 04, 2022, 10:29:57 AM
Because of OPSEC, we use a codeword at home for "Bitcoin" instead of calling it Bitcoin. As much as I like promoting Bitcoin, I don't want the kids to talk about it at school.
an international currency trader is all you need to be. sounds less geeky to say when introducing yourself to your future second wife after the first divorce
January 04, 2022, 08:55:33 AM
My kids are young
You messed up the quote.Quote
Let me give you another example. When kids get to a certain age, they start making up stories and innocent lies as their imagination starts running wild. What seems cute, can become troublesome. My friend's little pooper loves playing with me. We wrestle and he pushes me around and it's all fun. Recently, he has started "lying" and making up stories how other people hit him. Sounds cute? Maybe. It's not that cute being asked by the kindergarten teacher if you hit your children. That happened to my friend because his boy was letting his imagination run wild in front of everyone. He also told his teacher that his dad's friend (me) kicked him in the head and body-slammed him to the floor. 
I'm fully aware of this risk, and things that used to be innocent just a few years ago can be suspicious now. I've had my fair share of it already.Quote
If your kids figure out that you are doing something on your computer with Bitcoin and money, that crazy imagination can come alive again and you never know who might be listening or be interested in their stories.
Because of OPSEC, we use a codeword at home for "Bitcoin" instead of calling it Bitcoin. As much as I like promoting Bitcoin, I don't want the kids to talk about it at school. January 04, 2022, 08:32:31 AM
if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)
My kids are young, I don't want them around when handling sensitive stuff because they're distracting.Let me give you another example. When kids get to a certain age, they start making up stories and innocent lies as their imagination starts running wild. What seems cute, can become troublesome. My friend's little pooper loves playing with me. We wrestle and he pushes me around and it's all fun. Recently, he has started "lying" and making up stories how other people hit him. Sounds cute? Maybe. It's not that cute being asked by the kindergarten teacher if you hit your children. That happened to my friend because his boy was letting his imagination run wild in front of everyone. He also told his teacher that his dad's friend (me) kicked him in the head and body-slammed him to the floor.
If your kids figure out that you are doing something on your computer with Bitcoin and money, that crazy imagination can come alive again and you never know who might be listening or be interested in their stories.
Andreas is using paper wallet to refer to "classic" paper wallets, which are a print out of a single private key and address, and I would agree that such wallets are outdated and expose the user to a number of unnecessary risks which I've talked about in a previous post.
And Andreas explained that in the beginning of his video. Because of that, he isn't wrong when he says that (single-key) paper wallets are obsolete and there are better ways to secure your Bitcoin. January 04, 2022, 04:52:34 AM
I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.
I would not recommend this. By doing this, you have negated the primary benefit of a paper wallet, in that it is completely non digital. This is no longer a paper wallet - rather it is an encrypted software wallet with a paper back up.it is the very definition of paper wallets that is no longer suitable for the current reality.
Agreed. The terminology is what is confusing people here. Andreas is using paper wallet to refer to "classic" paper wallets, which are a print out of a single private key and address, and I would agree that such wallets are outdated and expose the user to a number of unnecessary risks which I've talked about in a previous post. The current use of the term paper wallet refers far more broadly to any wallet which is stored solely physically and with no digital copies. The paper wallets I use are seed phrases hand written on paper, but I've also seen people use the term paper wallet to refer to seed phrases stamped on to steel plates with no electronic wallet. January 04, 2022, 03:55:25 AM
Personally, I respect the opinion of Andreas Antonopoulos because I learned a lot about Bitcoin from his educational videos, podcasts, and books. He is known for his unique ability to explain very complex technical stuff in a language understandable for a complete newbie like I was three years ago. But I don't think I completely agree with Andreas on the question regarding paper wallets because I think it is not paper wallets that became obsolete, it is the very definition of paper wallets that is no longer suitable for the current reality. From my point of view, there is no any difference between a backup of sensitive information handwritten on a piece of paper that gives access to my funds and the same sensitive information, but that was printed on a piece of paper as a QR-code or something. The only difference is in technology that was used to present information, but I don't think it matters. If I write a book by my hand, it is still be considered a book but not a backup of it. Both a paper bitcoin wallet and a backup of a bitcoin wallet are the same thing and should be treated equally. Both require certain knowledge and skill to create securely, both give access to funds, both can be written down or printed as QR-codes. By saying you must not use paper wallets, you also mean you shouldn't have physical copies of your keys, which is obviously wrong.
January 04, 2022, 03:40:13 AM
Was just having the convo of safest storage methods with some buddies and an hour later this popped up on my YouTube - https://youtu.be/iNHVbDtUL0E
I’m having a hard time understanding if he means for the general public/ non experts (me) or even for someone like himself or Gmaxwell , for example ? I had always been taught that paper wallets are the purest form of cold storage. He’s advocating for hardware wallets (even over a correctly established air-gapped pc) , but there are sone risks they pose that paper does not, right? He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?
As always appreciate any insight you Mr Robots can provide!
I’m having a hard time understanding if he means for the general public/ non experts (me) or even for someone like himself or Gmaxwell , for example ? I had always been taught that paper wallets are the purest form of cold storage. He’s advocating for hardware wallets (even over a correctly established air-gapped pc) , but there are sone risks they pose that paper does not, right? He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?
As always appreciate any insight you Mr Robots can provide!
A paper wallet generated from an air-gapped computer, and the private keys secured properly is I believe just as safe and secure as a hardware wallet. I would also recommend copying the keys in a text file, encrypt that text file, make multiple back ups to the encrypted text file then keep them in different locations.
January 04, 2022, 03:05:36 AM
everyone who sees it must be very easy to steal it
Then keep it hidden.pieces of paper are also easily damaged, flammable and easily exposed to water
As are hardware wallets or computers. Also things like humidity, extremes of temperature, impacts, etc., will damage electronics far easier than they will damage paper.keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.
To follow on from the previous point: You should never find yourself in the situation where damage or loss of a single object will result in complete loss of your funds. With almost all electronic wallets, we back them up on to paper, so if the computer/phone/hardware wallet in question is damaged or lost, we can recover our coins. The same should be the case with paper wallets or any other offline wallets. You should have a minimum of two copies of your paper wallet stored in separate locations, so if one does end up being damaged you can recover from the other one.This is just basic computing knowledge. Always have back ups of important data.
January 04, 2022, 12:24:22 AM
I'll let you all know my personal thoughts on Papers Wallets.
I believe they are a fundamental part of the history of Bitcoin and cripto-curreny itself, back in the day (I have read) they were the most secure way to store one's Bitcoins, they served a purpose, even thought they had their disadvantages like any other type of Bitcoin Storage.
Time passed, the community evolved and so did the methods of storage and I personally believe that anyone who is holding more than a few hundreds of bucks should get a good, open source Hardware wallet instead printing a Paper Wallet. Of course, I am not saying we should dispose of Paper wallets completely, just because something is "old" or "obsolete" does not mean people need to stay away from it. To this day, there are people that enjoy old cars, old computers, old games, old safes...etc.
So if anyone wants to have their paper wallet, that's ok.
But please do not make it your main wallet with all your satoshis, keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.
I believe they are a fundamental part of the history of Bitcoin and cripto-curreny itself, back in the day (I have read) they were the most secure way to store one's Bitcoins, they served a purpose, even thought they had their disadvantages like any other type of Bitcoin Storage.
Time passed, the community evolved and so did the methods of storage and I personally believe that anyone who is holding more than a few hundreds of bucks should get a good, open source Hardware wallet instead printing a Paper Wallet. Of course, I am not saying we should dispose of Paper wallets completely, just because something is "old" or "obsolete" does not mean people need to stay away from it. To this day, there are people that enjoy old cars, old computers, old games, old safes...etc.
So if anyone wants to have their paper wallet, that's ok.
But please do not make it your main wallet with all your satoshis, keep it away from liquids and your pockes, so it will not end up within the washing machine.
January 04, 2022, 12:05:03 AM
He was talking for years and educating people why paper wallets shouldn't be used my masses anymore, and this is not his first video about that subject.
It's easy to find all his previous videos and I am sure you will find that he explained several times what you are talking about.
You are right but still it would be a lot better to clarify in this video or use the annotation thingy in youtube to direct to other videos. Some newcomers may not watch every video of his and only see this one and never learn more than this.It's easy to find all his previous videos and I am sure you will find that he explained several times what you are talking about.
To be fair A.A. is not the only case that calls paper wallets "obsolete and unsafe" we have bitcoin wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet) that is doing the same thing. At least the wiki, it was in 2018 that they finally added the seed phrase line (which still isn't enough IMO).
January 03, 2022, 10:29:33 PM
definition of paperwallet is a piece of paper with a private key/seed key wrote on it.
much like a brain wallet is simply remembering the seedkey
andrea's definition is of 2011 "bitnotes" not to be confused with actual paper wallets which are basically any private key/seed wrote on paper
as i said in earlier post andreas is saying paperwallets are complicated.. but he is describing "bitnotes" not paper wallets
much like a brain wallet is simply remembering the seedkey
andrea's definition is of 2011 "bitnotes" not to be confused with actual paper wallets which are basically any private key/seed wrote on paper
as i said in earlier post andreas is saying paperwallets are complicated.. but he is describing "bitnotes" not paper wallets
January 03, 2022, 09:10:03 PM
andreas antonopoulus said to stop using paper wallets, paper wallets are cold storage, our wallets are stored offline, many people say paper wallets are the safest wallets, but personally I agree with andreas antonopoulus, because there are so many risks involved we face if we use a paper wallet, everyone who sees it must be very easy to steal it, pieces of paper are also easily damaged, flammable and easily exposed to water, so I agree with andreas' opinion, I will leave the old method and I prefer to use the new method ..
January 03, 2022, 07:50:24 PM
Off topic, but any interest rate below inflation means you are losing money. Whether you are losing 4.5% or 5% per year is pretty academical.
I have this conversation all day every day with my clients, I’m like a parrot. My point was though don’t just always opt for what’s easiest, but take the time and do what’s best.
Moral of the story - proper paper wallet , if can guarantee proper creation and it’s safely (which might be technically impossible ) is best. Hardware however has enough advantage it’s deemed a viable alternative.
Andreas should have been more specific in his video, I don’t like how he framed it all.
My bad mods - this felt like a hard topic to know where to place.
Edit & thx again to all who contributed here, you all are always helping me and it’s very much appreciated!
January 03, 2022, 02:14:50 PM
however this usually requires some sort of technical know how, and has the potential for pitfalls which could ultimately lead to less secure storage despite being conventionally better.
Absolutely agree. Part of the problem here is not just having the knowledge required to avoid such pitfalls, but also having enough knowledge to realize that you don't possess such knowledge. We see time and again plenty of newbies on this forum who think that unplugging their Ethernet cable or turning off their WiFi means they can do whatever they like on their computer in complete safety. If you don't have the knowledge to safely create an airgapped wallet, the danger is you don't have the knowledge to realize that either. Perhaps Andreas' method of just saying "Never use a paper wallet" isn't so bad after all, rather than saying only use one if you can do x, y, and z, and newbies thinking they know how to do that. If you say "Never use a paper wallet" then this applies to the vast majority of users, and the few who know how to do so safely will also know they can safely ignore such statements.Ultimately, our goal as a community should be providing as many people as possible with the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money
But at the same time we should be steering newbies away from risky solutions such as creating their own paper wallets or using custodial closed source web wallets.I don't know if anyone saw what SeedSigner is doing for manually backing up wallets with QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.
I fail to see a single benefit of doing this over writing down a seed phrase. You first have to generate the seed phrase anyway, you are trusting additional hardware and software to generate the QR code, it is time consuming, the potential for making an error is huge in comparison to a seed phrase, it is incredibly difficult (if not impossible?) to use a metal plate if you prefer that over paper, it is time consuming and error prone to duplicate, and trying to figure out/brute force a mistake will be exponentially harder than doing the same for a seed phrase. What is the use case here? January 03, 2022, 01:05:42 PM
You need a device that tells you which fields to make black. And you'll need another device to verify the QR-code actually works.
You can use open source SeedSigner (raspberry Pi zero), that is ONE device not two, but I was just giving example of how this can be done.Similar thing can be done in software level on any offline computer.
Quote
not by some machine you need to trust that ink will survive long enough without fading.
I trust my toner will last for centuries, and I don't think a black pen/marker can improve that.They all have expiration dates, and printed ink is guaranteed to fade much faster than that, especially if you filled toner yourself or you kept it in bad air conditions.
Printer is also machine right? And your computer is also a machine, so you need two machines to print your paper wallet, that could leave memory history of you doing that, both in computer and in memory of printer.
January 03, 2022, 12:58:34 PM
It's much better than any printer, because you can make it even without electricity
You need a device that tells you which fields to make black. And you'll need another device to verify the QR-code actually works.Quote
not by some machine you need to trust that ink will survive long enough without fading.
I trust my toner will last for centuries, and I don't think a black pen/marker can improve that. January 03, 2022, 12:51:28 PM
That's a terrible system It's far more work than just entering the 12 seed words, and it's far less reliable than using a cheap old laser printer.
It's much better than any printer, because you can make it even without electricity and it's written with your own hand, not by some machine you need to trust that ink will survive long enough without fading. It's far more work than just entering the 12 seed words, and it's far less reliable than using a cheap old laser printer.I didn't compare this with writing seed words, but this is example and possibility of manual ''printing'' by hand.
January 03, 2022, 11:47:43 AM
QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.
This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
That's a terrible system This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
It's far more work than just entering the 12 seed words, and it's far less reliable than using a cheap old laser printer. January 03, 2022, 11:28:51 AM
The thing is Andreas is likely aiming this statement towards the masses, rather than those that are technically sound. While I do agree you shouldn't be speaking in absolutes, to be honest with the goal being getting average users with no technical background comfortable with Bitcoin, its best to offer advice which is the least technical, while still offering a good standard of security. I get what Andreas is trying to say, I wouldn't go as far as this statement, and instead would say that there are definitely more secure ways to secure your Bitcoin than x, however this usually requires some sort of technical know how, and has the potential for pitfalls which could ultimately lead to less secure storage despite being conventionally better.
Though, that doesn't have the same ring to it does it? His advice is sound, he isn't ruling out the use of paper wallets completely, only to those that don't quite understand the technical sides, the pros, and the cons of using one. Paper wallets are usually as secure as the person generating them.
Ultimately, our goal as a community should be providing as many people as possible with the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money, and by making Bitcoin less complex we will achieve that goal a little easier than if it was overly complex.
Though, that doesn't have the same ring to it does it? His advice is sound, he isn't ruling out the use of paper wallets completely, only to those that don't quite understand the technical sides, the pros, and the cons of using one. Paper wallets are usually as secure as the person generating them.
Ultimately, our goal as a community should be providing as many people as possible with the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money, and by making Bitcoin less complex we will achieve that goal a little easier than if it was overly complex.
January 03, 2022, 09:15:53 AM
My assumption is that a cheap black and white laser printer doesn't store anything after I cut it's power. But if you're really worried about that, make sure the printer never leaves your house. Or encrypt the wallet before printing.
I don't know if anyone saw what SeedSigner is doing for manually backing up wallets with QR codes that are drawn with a pen, instead of using any printer.This can be done at your own home and no machine will be used, you just follow instructions and fill up empty squares with permanent marker or pen.
This QR code for example contains twelve word seed phrase, and entering this code will import your seed words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1-PqTNx1vc
and for the rest of your life, not keep the paperwallet at home.. because you dont trust family to not find it a day, week, month later laying around the house.
It's more likely that even if your family finds your paper wallet they won't know how to use it, or if you used bad printer they wont find anything because ink palled like we see in those thermal receipt printers all the time.Regardless of the audience, claiming that paper wallets are obsolete is pretty misleading. In fact it is more misleading if the audience is at beginners level or doesn't understand much. They should be educated on why and when a paper wallet is insecure or doesn't provide the functionality that you would want (single private key compared to HD wallets). And more importantly they should be told about what they can do to improve that.
He was talking for years and educating people why paper wallets shouldn't be used my masses anymore, and this is not his first video about that subject.It's easy to find all his previous videos and I am sure you will find that he explained several times what you are talking about.
January 03, 2022, 05:54:18 AM
For most people in crypto he is right.
[~snip~]
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
[~snip~]
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Imho this is the correct view over what Andreas said.
I'll only add that with a tiny bit of ingenuity the seed can be hidden in plain sight, which is not that much possible with the private key, also the seed is less prone to typos.
But the main reason is being dumb-proof. And for that the solution at hand is seed and HW.
January 03, 2022, 05:03:02 AM
It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.
if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys
That's a perfect use case for paper wallets, they're much easier to copy than hardware. January 03, 2022, 05:01:49 AM
Some printers have features that do not work well with printing confidential information.
So don't use a printer at all, or only use it to print out information which is not a security risk, such as your addresses, xpubs, or QR codes of the same. Write down the seed phrase instead.For example, when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS.
So create entropy manually by flipping a coin.If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in.
So close the curtains, put some tape over your laptop camera, and leave your phone in another room.While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera.
So use one or more passphrases.All of these supposed "weaknesses" of paper wallets are weaknesses of every wallet which you back up your seed phrase on paper. By creating a wallet, backing it up on paper, and then destroying the electronic copy, then I am only removing some vectors of attack.
January 02, 2022, 11:43:06 PM
For most people in crypto he is right.
For some very careful and technical trained and social aware people, the paper wallet style might still be an option (Also i recommend steel engraved word lists)
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Whatever instruction they follow, they have no idea what is safe. They ll likely loose their coins when dealing with paper wallets.
Regardless of the audience, claiming that paper wallets are obsolete is pretty misleading. In fact it is more misleading if the audience is at beginners level or doesn't understand much. They should be educated on why and when a paper wallet is insecure or doesn't provide the functionality that you would want (single private key compared to HD wallets). And more importantly they should be told about what they can do to improve that. For some very careful and technical trained and social aware people, the paper wallet style might still be an option (Also i recommend steel engraved word lists)
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Whatever instruction they follow, they have no idea what is safe. They ll likely loose their coins when dealing with paper wallets.
January 02, 2022, 07:34:18 PM
It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.
if you dont trust your own family in your own home. maybe you should get a divorce and get your kids sent away to be adopted.(joke)
seems some are a little too paranoid in their own homes.
heres the thing though. with all the old school definition of paper wallet and the paranoid requirements of printed said paper wallet in complete privacy away from family.... what still remains is that you then have to hide said paper away from family. and put a hammer to your PC and printer to stop family from checking your document history later
(kind of overboard)
and for the rest of your life, not keep the paperwallet at home.. because you dont trust family to not find it a day, week, month later laying around the house.
the only real advice, without the paranoid 'over-fearing' scare tactics is:
to not do it on someone elses device, EG in a public library.
to not make a single paper wallet with significant amounts on it
if a burglar was to break into your house. they are not going to spend hours trying to look on your PC for fingerprints of if you are a bitcoiner. it takes too long
burglars dont rummage through all your letters and paperwork. it takes too long
they are simply going to steal your wifes jewellery. or your car keys and be out your house in under 5 minutes
no burglar bothers to look at printer cache data on the printers chip. they have a crowbar, not a device with hacker tools.
no burglar bothers to spend months trying to brute force your PC password.
they are more then likely going to factory reset your PC without going into your files to avoid any 'trace my pc' software pinging their location. and then selling the PC to a pawn shop
the real world fear is not your coins being stolen. but your access to your device/wallet being taken where the coins end up 'burned' via lost keys
January 02, 2022, 05:15:57 PM
Some printers have features that do not work well with printing confidential information. For example, some printers will save the last n pages it has printed so the user can easily reprint something they spilled coffee on. Sure, you can probably disable this feature, but it is one more thing you need to worry about.
My assumption is that a cheap black and white laser printer doesn't store anything after I cut it's power. But if you're really worried about that, make sure the printer never leaves your house. Or encrypt the wallet before printing.Quote
the potential risks involved in using a paper wallet include all risks involved in using a wallet stored in digital format and include additional risks not involved in storing a wallet in digital format.
I can think of a few risks from storing digital data. I trust paper much more than anything digital when it comes to (for example):- Magnets
- Aging/Reliability
- Accidentally connecting it to the internet
- Hiding
- Moisture (when laminated)
- Static electricity
- Physical damage
Quote
when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS
I can think of several ways to add random data which doesn't rely on that OS.Quote
If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in.
It's generally wise not to do anything confidential when anyone or any device can see you.Quote
if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera (they can also take the actual paper wallet
Fold it, staple it, tape it, laminate it, mount it on the wall, hide it... How is this different than writing down the mnemonic to your hardware wallet? January 02, 2022, 03:39:26 PM
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?
Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?Quote
Consider this scenario:
You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?
Everybody has a printer, nobody cares about it, and nobody is going to hit you on the head with a $5 wrench to ask you about your printer. But just in case, you can pick one up at a store, wear a mask inside, and pay in cash.You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
The thing about paper wallets is that it really never makes logical sense to use one. In all cases, the potential risks involved in using a paper wallet include all risks involved in using a wallet stored in digital format and include additional risks not involved in storing a wallet in digital format. For example, when you generate your private keys, you must rely upon the RNG of your OS. This is true regardless of whether you are creating a paper wallet or a wallet that will be stored on a USB drive. If you are creating a paper wallet, you must expose your private key to any "eyes" (including cameras) that can see in the room you are in. If you are creating a wallet that will be stored on a USB drive, you never need to expose the private keys to "eyes looking in the room".
While you are storing your paper wallet, if someone is able to access your paper wallet, they can ~instantly make a copy of the paper wallet with a camera (they can also take the actual paper wallet, however there may be some situations in which an adversary can see the paper wallet, but cannot remove it). With a wallet stored on a USB drive, an adversary would need to connect the USB drive to a computer, or other equipment in order to make a copy (or they can remove it, if possible). If there is any encryption applied to a paper wallet, the exact same encryption can be applied to a wallet being stored on a USB drive.
When you spend any coin stored on a paper wallet, you again will need to expose the private keys to the "eyes looking in the room", and again this is not the case for a wallet being stored on a USB drive.
If you were to replace "USB drive" with "Hardware Wallet" above, you would have incrementally greater security because HW wallets generally have a "cool-down" period in between unsuccessful attempts to use the HW wallet.
January 02, 2022, 10:28:38 AM
For most people in crypto he is right.
For some very careful and technical trained and social aware people, the paper wallet style might still be an option (Also i recommend steel engraved word lists)
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Whatever instruction they follow, they have no idea what is safe. They ll likely loose their coins when dealing with paper wallets.
For some very careful and technical trained and social aware people, the paper wallet style might still be an option (Also i recommend steel engraved word lists)
Remember, we have a majority of users with few computer skills. They are in for the craze and the moonshots and meme coins.
Whatever instruction they follow, they have no idea what is safe. They ll likely loose their coins when dealing with paper wallets.
January 02, 2022, 10:07:04 AM
There is nothing wrong if you already have some old paper wallet, and you can use it just fine, but it's much better to have option for easy generating of new addresses, that is impossible to do on paper wallets.
With single key paper wallets, sure. With HD paper wallets, it's as easy as having a watch only wallet with your master public key on your computer.However, which group do you think is bigger?
Clearly the group of those who do not have the technical knowledge required to safely set up and use a paper wallet far outnumber the group of those who do. But I agree that saying that no one should ever use a paper wallet because most people can't use it safely is wrong. Most people can't fly a plane safely or perform surgery safely - doesn't mean those things should be off limits for everyone.They aren’t corrupt like the big banks and offer a .5% interest rate vs like .001% at Chase/Wells etc.
Off topic, but any interest rate below inflation means you are losing money. Whether you are losing 4.5% or 5% per year is pretty academical. January 02, 2022, 09:58:21 AM
the issue andrea is falling short of, is that his definition of a paper wallet is limited to HIS old companies design of said "paper wallet" buzzword. he is stuck in that small concept of what he believes is a paper wallet.
the term "paper wallet" has actually evolved passed andrea's definition.
its no longer 'single use key, requiring bootable clean operating system to print snazzy banknote-esq design'
modern paperwallets are actually mnemonic seeds stored on paper.. thats it.
its not special design(bank notes) style that get passed around.
what he has lapsed in his evolution of buzzwords, is that his old concept of paperwallets is now buzzworded as 'bitnotes'
what he is actually saying is that HIS old companies concept can be risky and people should stop using his old companies process of their paperwallet concept
the term "paper wallet" has actually evolved passed andrea's definition.
its no longer 'single use key, requiring bootable clean operating system to print snazzy banknote-esq design'
modern paperwallets are actually mnemonic seeds stored on paper.. thats it.
its not special design(bank notes) style that get passed around.
what he has lapsed in his evolution of buzzwords, is that his old concept of paperwallets is now buzzworded as 'bitnotes'
what he is actually saying is that HIS old companies concept can be risky and people should stop using his old companies process of their paperwallet concept
January 02, 2022, 09:54:27 AM
Never talk in absolutes.
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
I agree. However, which group do you think is bigger? Those who know how to go about using paper wallets or those who could mess it up somehow? You might not even belong to either of those groups, but you just don't want to commit to the task of creating such solutions. Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
As Andreas says at 0:43, in this video he is talking about a single key paper wallet, which is essentially a piece of paper containing a single private key and single address. I tend to agree with him here; such wallets are outdated...
Exactly! I have to quote myself here: He is saying that it is not needed to keep track of individual private keys (on paper, steel or otherwise) and their addresses in today's age of recovery phrases. When Bitcoin was still in its beginning, it didn't have 12/24 word recovery phrases. Now it does and we use HD wallets. Why make backups of a single private key when you can take note of the recovery phrase and back up every private key that can be derived from it.
January 02, 2022, 09:22:30 AM
Never talk in absolutes.
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
People in general have gotten used to banks / brokerage houses / and so on keeping their money somewhat safe. Now that we have to take some responsibility to keep our funds safe there will always be "a better way to do it" but everyone will do what works for them, not what is "better" since what works for me might not work for you.
Also, keep in mind you still see how at times the failures of this. There are news items popping up about how people bought an old house and while renovating it found cash / gold / other expensive items in the walls. At times the home had passed thought several owners before it was found. Guess that secure method did not work out well for the person who did it.....
-Dave
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
People in general have gotten used to banks / brokerage houses / and so on keeping their money somewhat safe. Now that we have to take some responsibility to keep our funds safe there will always be "a better way to do it" but everyone will do what works for them, not what is "better" since what works for me might not work for you.
Also, keep in mind you still see how at times the failures of this. There are news items popping up about how people bought an old house and while renovating it found cash / gold / other expensive items in the walls. At times the home had passed thought several owners before it was found. Guess that secure method did not work out well for the person who did it.....
-Dave
The issue with that is many people advocate “it’s not a big deal keeping my coins on several exchanges, it makes things so easy for me”. That’s called being lazy and dumb. Coinbase is the biggest and most convenient exchange /storage.but..corrupt as all fuck. Most people store their money at Chase or Bank of America because it’s convenient for them. That’s also stupid and lazy. For one they are massively corrupt, and two you earn jack shit storing money with them, if not losing. The best option, regardless of convenience is storing money on an online bank such as Ally. They aren’t corrupt like the big banks and offer a .5% interest rate vs like .001% at Chase/Wells etc. As a financial advisor I hear the “it’s what’s convenient for me” all the time and it’s one of the biggest mistakes people make and it often costs them dearly ..so respectfully convenience shouldn’t be involved in anything financial if it’s not best. If a new best arrives, then make changes!
Cold storage is the only acceptable way to store any sizable amount of coins long term & convenience should play next to no role in this. We know this is best, whether hardware or paper. Hardware offers safety paper doesn’t and vice versa so convenience here is acceptable.
The problem wasn’t the storage of money in the house, it is once again laziness and ignorance. Had they made a proper trust/will ..this wouldn’t have happened.
January 02, 2022, 09:20:51 AM
He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?
I saw this video few days ago and I would somehow agree with him that average users, and tiktok generation should better stop using and generating paper wallets because they are obsolete.There is nothing wrong if you already have some old paper wallet, and you can use it just fine, but it's much better to have option for easy generating of new addresses, that is impossible to do on paper wallets.
If I had to choose between open source hardware wallet and paper wallets, I would always choose hardware wallet option.
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses? I've seen countless people enter their mnemonic seed into a phishing website. I've seen even more people lose their funds because they left them on an exchange. Paper wallets aren't perfect, but they serve a purpose.
Remember when one of those online website generating paper wallets got compromised, and I think that even you (correct me if I am wrong) had to change recommendations for using that website?Thousands and maybe millions of people used that website that had a flaw, meaning that information was leaked, and who knows how many people used that website incorrectly while being online.
No company or face behind them, so you can't really blame them like you can blame ledger and owners from French village.
While a cypherpunk myself; and a fan of fully trusted setups, generating seeds with own entropy and stuff like that, I think Andreas is speaking to the 99% of the crowd who probably aren't even on this forum and would 9 times out of 10 mess up a paper wallet.
Even people on this forum would mess up paper wallets, and I guess people could still ride a horse today if they want, but most of them still opted out for driving a car that is faster.You could die in some accident using any of this options, but you have airbags and seatbelts in cars so it's more likely you would survive a car crash.
It's similar thing with paper wallets and ''faster'' hardware wallets, but I guess you still have to secure your PAPER/metal backup even for hardware wallets
January 02, 2022, 09:13:06 AM
As Andreas says at 0:43, in this video he is talking about a single key paper wallet, which is essentially a piece of paper containing a single private key and single address. I tend to agree with him here; such wallets are outdated. I have several wallets which I would refer to as a paper wallet, that is, a wallet which is generated on an airgapped device using a live OS, stored only on paper, and then all digital traces of the wallet are destroyed. However, all my such wallets are HD wallets, which involve me writing down a seed phrase, maybe a passphrase if I'm using one (on separate paper), and noting the first handful of addresses with which to receive coins. This avoids all the issues with single key paper wallets, such as making mistakes when handling individual private keys, privacy implications of reusing the same address, losing change, and so on. It also allows me to bypass using a printer altogether and hand writing the seed phrase and passphrase instead of printing the private key.
His arguments regarding hardware wallets are also correct, though. For the vast majority of users, a hardware wallet will be a much better option than an airgapped device, since they do not have the technical knowledge or skills to properly set up an airgapped device. No reason you can't combine the two though, if you really want to use a paper wallet. Take your hardware wallet, generate a new seed phrase, write it down, get the first address to send some coins to, and then wipe your hardware wallet. You now effectively have an HD paper wallet.
His arguments regarding hardware wallets are also correct, though. For the vast majority of users, a hardware wallet will be a much better option than an airgapped device, since they do not have the technical knowledge or skills to properly set up an airgapped device. No reason you can't combine the two though, if you really want to use a paper wallet. Take your hardware wallet, generate a new seed phrase, write it down, get the first address to send some coins to, and then wipe your hardware wallet. You now effectively have an HD paper wallet.
January 02, 2022, 08:09:36 AM
Never talk in absolutes.
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
People in general have gotten used to banks / brokerage houses / and so on keeping their money somewhat safe. Now that we have to take some responsibility to keep our funds safe there will always be "a better way to do it" but everyone will do what works for them, not what is "better" since what works for me might not work for you.
Also, keep in mind you still see how at times the failures of this. There are news items popping up about how people bought an old house and while renovating it found cash / gold / other expensive items in the walls. At times the home had passed thought several owners before it was found. Guess that secure method did not work out well for the person who did it.....
-Dave
Should someone who does not know the risks of paper wallets use them? Probably not.
Should someone who knows how to make them secure, understands the risks & vulnerabilities and such use them if they want to? 100% yes.
People in general have gotten used to banks / brokerage houses / and so on keeping their money somewhat safe. Now that we have to take some responsibility to keep our funds safe there will always be "a better way to do it" but everyone will do what works for them, not what is "better" since what works for me might not work for you.
Also, keep in mind you still see how at times the failures of this. There are news items popping up about how people bought an old house and while renovating it found cash / gold / other expensive items in the walls. At times the home had passed thought several owners before it was found. Guess that secure method did not work out well for the person who did it.....
-Dave
January 02, 2022, 07:49:57 AM
You guys are awesome, I really appreciate the education! Im not good with this stuff but I really enjoy learning about it so thank you all.
Something I read ..someone was saying TapRoot will or has replaced Bip38, and that it will change some things in regards to how you need send transactions from wallet to wallet. True, or is it the same deal as like a legacy addy to a segwit addy, which can be interchangeable as far as I know. After just recently sending Matic Polygon to Binance US to a Matic erc20 address like a fool (guessing those coins are gone?) I’m wanting to make sure I don’t make any similar mistakes again.
Something I read ..someone was saying TapRoot will or has replaced Bip38, and that it will change some things in regards to how you need send transactions from wallet to wallet. True, or is it the same deal as like a legacy addy to a segwit addy, which can be interchangeable as far as I know. After just recently sending Matic Polygon to Binance US to a Matic erc20 address like a fool (guessing those coins are gone?) I’m wanting to make sure I don’t make any similar mistakes again.
January 02, 2022, 07:28:59 AM
It doesn't matter how you store your keys, but always remeber ...
I have a question. Recently there was a flood and a notebook containing a offline wallet was damage and it destroyed part of a WIF private key, so now I basically have:
Kw**********(I have the next 40 characters, just not posting for obvious reasons), so I am missing 10 characters in all. ...
Missing 10 Characters in WIF Private Key - Can I recover them?
Kw**********(I have the next 40 characters, just not posting for obvious reasons), so I am missing 10 characters in all. ...
Missing 10 Characters in WIF Private Key - Can I recover them?
January 02, 2022, 07:12:28 AM
Independent audit/open source firmware could reduce the risks. But rogue firmware update (e.g. forcing fixed k value on ECDSA during signing transaction) signed/released by rouge employee is theoretically possible.
The risk exists across all of the platforms/devices and wallets. Your OS could've had the entropy being compromised inadvertently, or your wallet could've wrongly implemented the CSPRNG calls. The only real way to mitigate this is to review the code yourself to ensure that it isn't broken or to check if the signature of the firmware is checked and signed by someone you trust. January 02, 2022, 06:44:44 AM
While a cypherpunk myself; and a fan of fully trusted setups, generating seeds with own entropy and stuff like that, I think Andreas is speaking to the 99% of the crowd who probably aren't even on this forum and would 9 times out of 10 mess up a paper wallet.
If you know what you are doing and you use a setup like Loyce (with dedicated offline printer and computer) and such, go for it - there will be less trust involved.
But the majority of people will create a paper wallet probably with the online version of a potentially malicious site and screenshot the seed; thus making it heaps more secure for them to just use a hardware wallet.
To be honest, people can be phished into giving away their seed more easily when it's printed on paper as well, compared to hardware wallets that either only show it once during creation of the wallet or have to be dug out of a deep menu that gives a person time to second-guess what they are actually about to do. HW wallets could even implement features like time-locks before showing the seed and display a support email address or the like (though I haven't seen that done yet) if there are any questions from the customer, for example.
If you know what you are doing and you use a setup like Loyce (with dedicated offline printer and computer) and such, go for it - there will be less trust involved.
But the majority of people will create a paper wallet probably with the online version of a potentially malicious site and screenshot the seed; thus making it heaps more secure for them to just use a hardware wallet.
To be honest, people can be phished into giving away their seed more easily when it's printed on paper as well, compared to hardware wallets that either only show it once during creation of the wallet or have to be dug out of a deep menu that gives a person time to second-guess what they are actually about to do. HW wallets could even implement features like time-locks before showing the seed and display a support email address or the like (though I haven't seen that done yet) if there are any questions from the customer, for example.
January 02, 2022, 06:41:49 AM
Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…
Sure, hardware wallets can definitely do this. Use a flawed RNG at any point in time when you're using your device. This is why independent audits and having their firmware being open source are necessary. The way most hardware wallet is designed makes it such that it is difficult to embed malicious codes without changing the chips themselves, ColdCard for example does a check on the firmware on every boot and its bootloader only takes in signed firmware.Still, there is a certain level of trust which can really never be eliminated. I'd probably still support a well-known manufacturer though.
Independent audit/open source firmware could reduce the risks. But rogue firmware update (e.g. forcing fixed k value on ECDSA during signing transaction) signed/released by rouge employee is theoretically possible.
January 02, 2022, 05:00:39 AM
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?
Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?Quote
Consider this scenario:
You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?
Everybody has a printer, nobody cares about it, and nobody is going to hit you on the head with a $5 wrench to ask you about your printer. But just in case, you can pick one up at a store, wear a mask inside, and pay in cash.You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?
Quote
Too many mistakes have happened that have caused people to lose money by not making a proper backup of their private key, using bad software solutions that send change to a different address whose private key you don't have, etc. Instead of that use HD wallets and forget about single keys. Hardware wallets happen to be a good compromise between security and simplicity.
That's all true, but doesn't mean paper wallets can't be used in certain cases. In fact, it works just as well as it did 10 years ago, and that's the beauty of paper wallets: it will still work the same decades later. January 02, 2022, 04:45:49 AM
Besides hacks to HD wallet databases ( why companies can’t seem to properly secure their servers with encryption like Signal /telegram have I still don’t understand, shouldn’t there be encryption code out there everyone could utilize, or would that expose the encryption and make it useless?) are there any other big security risks with them? Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…Maybe this is a silly question but this stuff is Chinese to me. Appreciate y’all !
Nevermind, might've misunderstood it. They operate on a need-to-know basis, messages are encrypted from end-to-end.
The hardware wallet company needs your personal data, or else your hardware wallet will never reach you. Unlike passwords, which allows for websites to only store hashed and salted database, you cannot store an encrypted shipping address (without it being decrypted at some point in time), because that is useless. At some point in time, your shipping data will be made known to the company and that is the time frame for which it can be compromised. Problem being, certain company was found to have stored the data for longer than necessary (ie. after the device is shipped).
Sure, hardware wallets can definitely do this. Use a flawed RNG at any point in time when you're using your device. This is why independent audits and having their firmware being open source are necessary. The way most hardware wallet is designed makes it such that it is difficult to embed malicious codes without changing the chips themselves, ColdCard for example does a check on the firmware on every boot and its bootloader only takes in signed firmware.
Still, there is a certain level of trust which can really never be eliminated. I'd probably still support a well-known manufacturer though.
January 02, 2022, 04:29:38 AM
Thanks guys! This is pretty much what I thought, but the outdated tech comment threw me.
Besides hacks to HD wallet databases ( why companies can’t seem to properly secure their servers with encryption like Signal /telegram have I still don’t understand, shouldn’t there be encryption code out there everyone could utilize, or would that expose the encryption and make it useless?) are there any other big security risks with them? Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…Maybe this is a silly question but this stuff is Chinese to me. Appreciate y’all !
Besides hacks to HD wallet databases ( why companies can’t seem to properly secure their servers with encryption like Signal /telegram have I still don’t understand, shouldn’t there be encryption code out there everyone could utilize, or would that expose the encryption and make it useless?) are there any other big security risks with them? Could Trezor /ColdCards etc secretly build in some sort of attack that would enable them to steal coins somehow? Perhaps a highly technical employee plans to go rogue with a few million so they build it in and steal before anyone notices…Maybe this is a silly question but this stuff is Chinese to me. Appreciate y’all !
January 02, 2022, 04:25:25 AM
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses?
Not really a fair comparison. How could a paper do that?Consider this scenario:
You said you have a printer without WIFI. Maybe you bought it with cash, maybe with a credit card that shows your real name. That information is stored somewhere on a server. The shop gets hacked and the data gets leaked. Does that make your product (the printer) worse? Would you stop using it and throw it away?
Although Andreas is advocating for the use of hardware wallets (I think he even mentioned ColdCard in the video), the point is to stop using individual private keys and back them up. Too many mistakes have happened that have caused people to lose money by not making a proper backup of their private key, using bad software solutions that send change to a different address whose private key you don't have, etc. Instead of that use HD wallets and forget about single keys. Hardware wallets happen to be a good compromise between security and simplicity.
January 02, 2022, 04:07:29 AM
Using a paper wallet increases the scope in which your private key can potentially be compromised compared to a hardware wallet or an encrypted wallet on a hard drive. This is true for both when you are creating a paper wallet, and when you are spending coin that you have stored on a paper wallet.
January 02, 2022, 03:58:46 AM
I wouldn't tell anyone to stop using any type of wallets, just as long as they understand what are the advantages and disadvantages of each wallet type (that could include even custodial wallets). For example a paper wallet generated on a website is never secure or a hardware wallet that can be exploited can lead to losses. So you can never that one method is better than the other IMO.
When comparing hardware wallets with paper wallets I would consider two facts.
1) If the user is new and doesn't want to or can not spend time learning and creating a secure wallet, the hardware wallet for them is a good option. They just have to pay some money to buy them.
2) If the user is going to regularly access the wallet, using hardware wallet is more convenient than using a paper wallet. Also if paper wallet was chosen a HD one should be created instead of a single key.
Personally since I didn't like paying for my bitcoin wallet, I created my own cold storage using a USB disk and a Linux OS and Electrum with paper backups. I wouldn't call it outdated either.
When comparing hardware wallets with paper wallets I would consider two facts.
1) If the user is new and doesn't want to or can not spend time learning and creating a secure wallet, the hardware wallet for them is a good option. They just have to pay some money to buy them.
2) If the user is going to regularly access the wallet, using hardware wallet is more convenient than using a paper wallet. Also if paper wallet was chosen a HD one should be created instead of a single key.
Personally since I didn't like paying for my bitcoin wallet, I created my own cold storage using a USB disk and a Linux OS and Electrum with paper backups. I wouldn't call it outdated either.
January 02, 2022, 03:51:45 AM
None of his arguments against paper wallets scare me. He basically says you have to trust a hardware wallet.
It's a hell of a lot more complicated to create and use a paper wallet on a proper air gapped system though, but once in a while I swing on a dedicated laptop for it. I also have a dedicated printer, without Wifi or LAN.
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses? I've seen countless people enter their mnemonic seed into a phishing website. I've seen even more people lose their funds because they left them on an exchange. Paper wallets aren't perfect, but they serve a purpose.
I've used paper wallets as a very easy giveaway, and some of the receivers still hodl it. The total value at the time was less than the price of a hardware wallet, which makes a paper wallet the best solution in that case.
It's a hell of a lot more complicated to create and use a paper wallet on a proper air gapped system though, but once in a while I swing on a dedicated laptop for it. I also have a dedicated printer, without Wifi or LAN.
Let's counter his arguments: how often has a paper wallet leaked millions of customer addresses? I've seen countless people enter their mnemonic seed into a phishing website. I've seen even more people lose their funds because they left them on an exchange. Paper wallets aren't perfect, but they serve a purpose.
I've used paper wallets as a very easy giveaway, and some of the receivers still hodl it. The total value at the time was less than the price of a hardware wallet, which makes a paper wallet the best solution in that case.
January 02, 2022, 03:25:01 AM
He is saying that it is not needed to keep track of individual private keys (on paper, steel or otherwise) and their addresses in today's age of recovery phrases. When Bitcoin was still in its beginning, it didn't have 12/24 word recovery phrases. Now it does and we use HD wallets. Why make backups of a single private key when you can take note of the recovery phrase and back up every private key that can be derived from it. That's what he is talking about.
January 02, 2022, 03:24:25 AM
Paper wallets are fine, but most people don't know how to use it properly. For the sake of simplicity, I'm answering from the POV that both HD and single address paper wallets are the same.
I skimmed through the video, so forgive me if I got any of it wrong. Cold storage are offline methods of storing the keys, but it doesn't guarantee any degree of security, or at least without the user intentionally practicing good security habits (generation, and spending namely). I've long advocated for most people to use hardware wallets, because they are designed to be secure. They are convenient in the sense that they dumb down the security for most, to the point for which it is harder to make common mistakes which can compromise the security.
If you can correctly and securely establish your own air-gapped wallet, then sure, you should use it by all means. That eliminates the costs going into it and also the degree of trust into the device and the manufacturer. However, if you know that you might unintentionally make any mistakes which can compromise your security, or if you're unsure about what attack vectors that you're trying to guard against (and if you can eliminate them effectively), then please use a hardware wallet.
Personally, I've used a RPi as an air-gapped wallet for quite a while but the hassle of it doesn't really appeal to me, though I know I can properly generate and use the cold storage. I opted for a well-known and transparent hardware wallet and have never looked back since.
I skimmed through the video, so forgive me if I got any of it wrong. Cold storage are offline methods of storing the keys, but it doesn't guarantee any degree of security, or at least without the user intentionally practicing good security habits (generation, and spending namely). I've long advocated for most people to use hardware wallets, because they are designed to be secure. They are convenient in the sense that they dumb down the security for most, to the point for which it is harder to make common mistakes which can compromise the security.
If you can correctly and securely establish your own air-gapped wallet, then sure, you should use it by all means. That eliminates the costs going into it and also the degree of trust into the device and the manufacturer. However, if you know that you might unintentionally make any mistakes which can compromise your security, or if you're unsure about what attack vectors that you're trying to guard against (and if you can eliminate them effectively), then please use a hardware wallet.
Personally, I've used a RPi as an air-gapped wallet for quite a while but the hassle of it doesn't really appeal to me, though I know I can properly generate and use the cold storage. I opted for a well-known and transparent hardware wallet and have never looked back since.
January 02, 2022, 03:06:09 AM
Was just having the convo of safest storage methods with some buddies and an hour later this popped up on my YouTube - https://youtu.be/iNHVbDtUL0E
I’m having a hard time understanding if he means for the general public/ non experts (me) or even for someone like himself or Gmaxwell , for example ? I had always been taught that paper wallets are the purest form of cold storage. He’s advocating for hardware wallets (even over a correctly established air-gapped pc) , but there are some risks they pose that paper does not, right? He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?
As always appreciate any insight you Mr Robots can provide!
I’m having a hard time understanding if he means for the general public/ non experts (me) or even for someone like himself or Gmaxwell , for example ? I had always been taught that paper wallets are the purest form of cold storage. He’s advocating for hardware wallets (even over a correctly established air-gapped pc) , but there are some risks they pose that paper does not, right? He’s stating paper wallet tech is simply outdated, but I don’t see how?
As always appreciate any insight you Mr Robots can provide!
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