n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable)

SFR10

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Quote from: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 02:55:36 PM

I didn't modify the files from n0nce (who very kindly offered me a customised version of his jig—or was it one of the parameters in the file?). kindly offered

I thought ^{[and also hoped]} you managed to improve the original design of the jig in a way that the protruded part would slide in and out of the crevices ^{[or rather sections]} and the squarish opening.

Quote from: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 02:55:36 PM

When I said you could open and close the jig, I meant lifting and lowering the upper part.

Thank you for the clarification

fillippone

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Quote from: SFR10 on April 04, 2024, 01:59:27 PM

Quote from: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 07:02:45 AM

You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on.
Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again.
So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig.

Did you alter the STL file from your end ^{[specifically referring to the jig itself (apart from your name)]}? I remember thoroughly checking the STL files when @n0nce created this thread, but AFAICR the squarish opening on the jig didn't open and close ^{[the only way to reposition it was by lifting it first]}.

Exactly.
I didn't modify the files from n0nce (who very kindly offered me a customised version of his jig—or was it one of the parameters in the file?). kindly offered
When I said you could open and close the jig, I meant lifting and lowering the upper part.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on April 04, 2024, 02:26:32 PM

there is still a chance of finding correct order when you know 24 from total of 2048 words.

That gives 6.2*10²³ possibilities. With 12 words, it's doable. With 24, it's not going to happen.

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 04, 2024, 07:28:53 AM

If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless.

There is a risk with that (additional order numbers would probably fix this) but it's not totally worthless, there is still a chance of finding correct order when you know 24 from total of 2048 words.

Quote from: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 07:34:32 AM

I was thinking something more mechanical, where you have all 26 stamps inside the machine. Sure there's going to inevitably be some flash memory required to remember the words, but this is not supposed to be a network-connected device anyway, and I believe there are methods for securely destroying flash memory when you are done with it (although that might get expensive quickly).

I don't like this because it can create more risk in overall setup.
Stainless steel washers are cheap and great, but I am coming up with alternative option for storing seed phrase, it will be released soon.

SFR10

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Quote from: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 07:02:45 AM

You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on.
Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again.
So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig.

Did you alter the STL file from your end ^{[specifically referring to the jig itself (apart from your name)]}? I remember thoroughly checking the STL files when @n0nce created this thread, but AFAICR the squarish opening on the jig didn't open and close ^{[the only way to reposition it was by lifting it first]}.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 04, 2024, 07:28:53 AM

Quote from: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 07:25:01 AM

I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process.

Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.

Quote

One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers?

If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless.

I think he’s actually referring to the washers with the serial number of the tamper-proof labels.
It is an additional layer of complexity. This is meant to avoid someone breaking the tamper-proof labels and substituting those with new ones without the necessity also to restamp the washers, which requires new identical washers, with identical labels, and stamps.
Not perfect, but I guess effective.

NotATether

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 04, 2024, 07:28:53 AM

Quote from: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 07:25:01 AM

I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process.

Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.

I was thinking something more mechanical, where you have all 26 stamps inside the machine. Sure there's going to inevitably be some flash memory required to remember the words, but this is not supposed to be a network-connected device anyway, and I believe there are methods for securely destroying flash memory when you are done with it (although that might get expensive quickly).

Anyway I'm just throwing ideas around, I'm not really sure what a good solution for this would be.

LoyceV

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Quote from: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 07:25:01 AM

I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process.

Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.

Quote

One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers?

If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless.

NotATether

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Quote from: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 07:02:45 AM

I wrote a thread, there is a gif and a video of the whole process:

Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

I hope that reading that you will find aclarificatiin of your doubt.
Anyway yes, the jig is meant to hold the washer you are stamping in position. You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on.
Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again.
So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig.
In case, just ask.

Your thread is very helpful, and it seems that preparing the washers requires substantial amount of manual work

I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process.

One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers? It doesn't seem at first glance to be verifying anything, especially if you're going to put all this into a tamper-proof container.

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Quote from: NotATether on April 01, 2024, 05:18:50 AM

I am sorry for bumping this but lately I have been trying to figure out how this backup method works, so my questions about this might come across as ignorant.

I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place? And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? Huh

And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close?

I wrote a thread, there is a gif and a video of the whole process:

Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

I hope that reading that you will find aclarificatiin of your doubt.
Anyway yes, the jig is meant to hold the washer you are stamping in position. You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on.
Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again.
So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig.
In case, just ask.

SFR10

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Quote from: NotATether on April 01, 2024, 05:18:50 AM

I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place?

That's the jig part... Apart from holding the washer in place, it helps with the spacing and alignment while also providing some protection against hammering our fingers.

Quote from: NotATether on April 01, 2024, 05:18:50 AM

And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? Huh

No, you only need one to stamp on all of them.

Quote from: NotATether on April 01, 2024, 05:18:50 AM

And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close?

There aren't any moving parts on the jig to open/close that opening.

NotATether

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I am sorry for bumping this but lately I have been trying to figure out how this backup method works, so my questions about this might come across as ignorant.

I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place? And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? Huh

And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close?

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 13, 2022, 07:43:38 AM

Wait, and here I thought 3D-printers would be able to print in color.... Google tells me it exists, but at a whole different price level (a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars).

It's easy to order this replacement fillers online or locally, and I think you can find at least one seller that sells all different fillers even in small towns.
I know all this from ads I see and I personally ordered some simple stuff for printing... I could always choose from several color options.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on March 13, 2022, 11:38:44 AM

I think we might be bordering on the ridiculous here, even for someone as paranoid as me.

Yeah we are Cheesy

and I also said before that we entered the paranoid twilight zone territory like Rod Serling in famous tv series, we just need that theme song

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: dkbit98 on March 12, 2022, 07:00:05 PM

but I am just brainstorming that someone could find that picture and replace it with their own fake copy anytime.

I think we might be bordering on the ridiculous here, even for someone as paranoid as me. Someone would have to know your entire system, figure out where you stored that photo, hack in to your device to view the photo, find your seed phrase, break it and then reseal it, recreate the photo you took with the same angle/lighting/surroundings/etc., and then hack back in to your device to replace the photo. And all that to only compromise one part of what is presumably a multi-layered back up.

The attacker in question will almost certainly look for a different way to target you.

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 13, 2022, 07:43:38 AM

Quote from: n0nce on March 12, 2022, 08:38:56 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on March 12, 2022, 07:00:05 PM

Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life.

Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.

Wait, and here I thought 3D-printers would be able to print in color.... Google tells me it exists, but at a whole different price level (a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars).

You can only print with already coloured 'filament', but there exist relatively affordable models that allow to use multiple rolls of filament and automatically switch between them to make multi-colour prints.
Resin printers are also gaining popularity, which produce a smoother finish, but won't allow for any type of colour change.

LoyceV

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Quote from: n0nce on March 12, 2022, 08:38:56 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on March 12, 2022, 07:00:05 PM

Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life.

Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.

Wait, and here I thought 3D-printers would be able to print in color.... Google tells me it exists, but at a whole different price level (a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars).

n0nce

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Quote from: dkbit98 on March 12, 2022, 07:00:05 PM

Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life.

Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.
You could even tilt the model in the slicing software before printing at a random angle, which will be tricky to replicate (though it would then print with support material, costing more and taking longer).

Quote from: fillippone on March 12, 2022, 08:26:22 PM

I finally published the translation of the guide on the language most can comprehend:
Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

Hope you enjoy it and I am waiting for many suggestions!

Quickly skimmed it; it seems 1:1 like the Italian one which was great as well, so no complaints from me! Wink

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I finally published the translation of the guide on the language most can comprehend:
Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

Hope you enjoy it and I am waiting for many suggestions!

dkbit98

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Quote from: fillippone on March 11, 2022, 11:09:45 AM

As per nail polish, or any other entropy-related scheme, you are supposed to take a picture (and safely store) to check against to the seal while opening it.

I know you need to take a picture, that is why I said that remembering something like that is not a good option long term,
but I am just brainstorming that someone could find that picture and replace it with their own fake copy anytime.

Quote from: LoyceV on March 11, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Since we're on the subject of printing custom capsules with multiple colors: how about making the capsules for each part of the multisig storage line up? Say you have 3 cylinders with metal washers. When you put those 3 cylinders together, a matching pattern occurs. That way you don't need to remember the exact details of each cylinder, but you do need to get them all together to check if any tampering took place.

Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life.

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 10, 2022, 12:45:15 PM

Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address.

Although I don't share those reservations I can certainly understand them, but I still think that using a standardized method which is reproducible across multiple different pieces of wallet software (or even manually) such as multi-sig or passphrases is far preferable to any other scheme such as seed splitting or Shamir's.

If you are thinking of putting something directly on to the stack of washers, then why not just use a couple of different colors of metal paint and paint over the whole stack. For someone to open the stack they would have to break them apart which would obviously damage the paint. And obviously you can take photos to ensure someone hasn't painted over your paint.

Topic: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) (Read 1565 times)