Andreas' current use of BTC - page 2.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 01, 2021, 04:01:57 AM

Not necessarily. Gold is also a store of value and it's being used only as an asset, bitcoin may also go on this path.

Gold has other uses - jewelry, electronics, chemistry, healthcare. Even without it being used as a currency, there will always be demand for gold for these reasons. Now, if bitcoin could not be used as a currency and could not be spent anywhere, why would there be any demand for it? It cannot be used for anything else (or at least, any other purpose for it is exceedingly inefficient).

Quote from: pooya87 on November 01, 2021, 04:34:05 AM

On the other hand those who seek financial sovereignty through bitcoin (BTC as currency) aren't really participating in social media expressing their opinion every day so they go unnoticed.

I don't think it's necessarily a difference between how vocal each category is, but rather a difference between the numbers of users in each category. Why would bitcoin spenders be quieter than bitcoin holders? I obviously want the price to increase too, because it increases my purchasing power. I want more people to use it as a currency so I have more places I can spend it myself. I want increased adoption so I can move ever more away from fiat and towards financial sovereignty. Why would people like me not be vocal?

Even on this forum, users here for these reasons are in the minority.

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Quote from: witcher_sense on November 01, 2021, 06:44:35 AM

What will happen when most of the coins are in the hands of those companies? Right, the price of bitcoin, or more strictly, its purchasing power will skyrocket, so the companies will have a huge incentive to spend it.

I'd say the exact opposite. As they observe their asset skyrocket in the long-term, they're discouraged to spend it, because they can accumulate more purchasing power in the future if they do. This is the problem with deflationary currencies. You're not incentivized to spend them, but rather keep them safe or as we've modernized it, to HODL them. This slow downs the economy.

Quote from: pooya87 on November 01, 2021, 04:34:05 AM

The other problem with this statement is that we have no statistics to prove it or reject it.

And why should you prove this statement? Do you have to convince someone with strong inferences? Isn't it obvious for everybody you're talking that observing a 10x within a year means we had more investors?

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Quote from: Lucius on October 31, 2021, 10:10:51 AM

Personally, I don't think it leads in the right direction, because sooner or later most of the BTC will end up in the hands of those who will have the most money - and it will happen in a completely natural way, on the way up ordinary people will sell, the rich will buy.

The question is what will eventually remain for the average Joe? Probably a lot of worthless fiat...

What you have described here is a well-known economic problem called "The problem of hoarding." However, many economists, especially those of Austrian school, argue that this is not actually a problem at all, but, instead, beneficial to society. Let's take your example, companies accumulate bitcoin and keep it in their cash balances, right? But why do they do that in the first place? Obviously, they expect bitcoin's price to increase, so it will be easier for them to overcome any obstacles in the future. Like the average Joe, they have no idea what will happen with them in the future, but they at least can slightly alleviate its uncertainty by keeping cash in their balances. What is important here is that they don't need bitcoin itself, they need goods and services they can buy with it in the future. What will happen when most of the coins are in the hands of those companies? Right, the price of bitcoin, or more strictly, its purchasing power will skyrocket, so the companies will have a huge incentive to spend it.

Rothbard wrote:

People will almost always say, if asked, that they want as much money as they can get! But what they really want is not more units of money—more gold ounces or “dollars”—but more effective units, i.e., greater command of goods and services bought by money. We have seen that society cannot satisfy its demand for more money by increasing its supply—for an increased supply will simply dilute the effectiveness of each ounce, and the money will be no more really plentiful than before. People's standard of living (except in the nonmonetary uses of gold) cannot increase by mining more gold. If people want more effective gold ounces in their cash balances, they can get them only through a fall in prices and a rise in the effectiveness of each ounce.

Companies' demand for bitcoin will likely result in an increase in the effectiveness of each bitcoin, which will allow the average Joe to satisfy his needs more productively.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 11:05:45 AM

Bitcoin is a decentralized, peer to peer, currency. Not a centralized, third party, investment vehicle, which is sadly what it is turning in to.

I have the same attitude as you, but if you just take this forum and its active user base, I believe most have never used Bitcoin as a currency and consider it just a tool that will allow them to one day have more fiat than they used to have. Maybe that's why the world's elite is somewhat mild in their attitudes towards Bitcoin, if we take into account that most coins will still end up where they can control them.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 01, 2021, 04:01:57 AM

In 10 years from now people may spend Satoshi or sub-units of that. Bitcoin can still function as a currency, the 8 digits after the decimal point is a lot.
It all depends whether people will still spend or will be convinced to just HODL.

I have no doubt that there will always be enthusiasts who will try to follow Satoshi Nakamoto’s idea, but I think there will be far fewer of them in the future than there are today. Most people still have their exit point, so I've already written that with price increases, coin ownership will change in favor of wealthy individuals, companies, funds, central banks, to the point where the average Joe will no longer have anything in his crypto wallet, and the price will be so high that he may not be able to afford to buy even 1000 sats.

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There is actually nothing wrong if one will be holding his Bitcoin for the long-term...now if the the term holding does not sound good then convert it into saving. Saving money is certainly a very important backbone to one's economy and without it then it can be hard for a country to experience real progress. No, having said that, I can understand the message that Op is trying to bring us to: that cryptocurrency like Bitcoin to really go mainstream they must be spend like the usual fiat money and people should stop speculating its value. The thing is that if we limit Bitcoin alone on this aspect then what can be its difference with the fiat money? There is no easy answer here but the most important feature with Bitcoin is you have now many options as to what to do with...with holding as a major choice by the many.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 05:49:25 AM

I tend to agree that the majority of people just use BTC as an investment and not as a currency.

It looks that way and it is partly true but mostly because those people who are so vocal on social media (like what you said about people Reddit) are those who are mostly interested in price (BTC as investment) and are trying to increase the hype so their investment grows in value.
On the other hand those who seek financial sovereignty through bitcoin (BTC as currency) aren't really participating in social media expressing their opinion every day so they go unnoticed.
There is also the fact that during bull markets we see more investors coming in rather than others.

The other problem with this statement is that we have no statistics to prove it or reject it. The payment processors like BitPay (even though they don't represent the whole used as currency thing) stopped publishing their detailed stats but still what they do release shows a growth in bitcoin usage as a currency.

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He knows that BTC value will continue to rise even when its price fluctuates wildly. He does have a business online and he is a motivational speaker as far as I know. If he has USD which he earns through his business then why should he be spending his BTC? Nothing is forcing him to spend his BTC. Whether we agree or not people don't just look at BTC as currency, it's an investment due to the value that goes up.

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 10:34:52 AM

He was talking about living on Bitcoin and he said that he HODLs his BTC and basically spends only USD.

While his point may have been that if you want to spend, you better spend fiat and keep the bitcoins, he should have also emphasize that he also spends bitcoin, just because he is a model, a trend setter.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 05:49:25 AM

Bitcoin was built to be a currency. If you want to buy and hold it as an investment, then that's your right - anyone is free to use bitcoin in any way they choose. But if no one in the world ever used it as a currency, then it has no point and no value.

Not necessarily. Gold is also a store of value and it's being used only as an asset, bitcoin may also go on this path. I don't say it's a good direction, I only say that it's possible. And it won't make it worthless/pointless.

Quote from: Lucius on October 31, 2021, 10:10:51 AM

10 years from now let’s imagine the following scenario :

- Mr. Mars and its companies own about 1 million BTC.
- Saylor and his Microstrategy own 2+ million BTC.
- Various other companies around the world own another 2 million BTC.
- Grayscale and similar funds that will soon become ETFs own about 10 million BTC.
- Several dozen countries have declared Bitcoin legal tender owning about 2 million BTC.
- Between 2-4 million BTC is irretrievably lost.

The question is what will eventually remain for the average Joe? Probably a lot of worthless fiat...

In 10 years from now people may spend Satoshi or sub-units of that. Bitcoin can still function as a currency, the 8 digits after the decimal point is a lot.
It all depends whether people will still spend or will be convinced to just HODL.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 31, 2021, 11:31:06 AM

Taking it a step further by demanding from the rest of the world to behave same way you do and expect to all follow is unrealistic.

I agree, which is why I'm not demanding that everyone go out and spend their bitcoin. As I said above, everyone is free to use bitcoin as they like, and one of the great things about bitcoin is precisely that everyone is free to use it in any way they see fit without influence or control from external third parties. But that doesn't mean I can't lament that a lot of people are only here because they heard crypto will make them rich.

Quote from: jostorres on October 31, 2021, 04:56:17 PM

Well, having just one person in the whole community that is holding his Bitcoin and not selling it is not going to affect the market.

Sure, but what about if everyone just held their bitcoin and never transacted with it or used it for anything? What is going to drive adoption and growth if nobody is using bitcoin for anything? Why would bitcoin have value if I can't spend it anywhere or for anything?

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 10:34:52 AM

I love Andreas Antonopoulos. Having said this, he recently said something in one episode of his podcast that surprised me. He was talking about living on Bitcoin and he said that he HODLs his BTC and basically spends only USD. He gets paid in all different fiat, and he spends this fiat for his daily life. When he can, he buys more BTC and HODL.

While I understand that many of us HODL, isn't this just wrong for the future of BTC. First, Satoshi created BTC as a currency. It is intended to be spent. Second, if everyone HODL and nobody spends BTC, isn't this becoming just a pyramid scheme?

Well, having just one person in the whole community that is holding his Bitcoin and not selling it is not going to affect the market. There are already lots of people who are making use of cryptocurrency daily for their daily transactions.

Everyone have what works for them, I might decide that it is best for me to just hold Bitcoin and not use it for any kind of transaction, it is all about what works for me and whether there is a need for me to be making use of Bitcoin for such daily transactions. As for me, I make use of Bitcoin for both transactions and also I hold them as an investment in my wallet, while I wait for the price to increase.

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 10:34:52 AM

I love Andreas Antonopoulos. Having said this, he recently said something in one episode of his podcast that surprised me. He was talking about living on Bitcoin and he said that he HODLs his BTC and basically spends only USD. He gets paid in all different fiat, and he spends this fiat for his daily life. When he can, he buys more BTC and HODL.

While I understand that many of us HODL, isn't this just wrong for the future of BTC. First, Satoshi created BTC as a currency. It is intended to be spent. Second, if everyone HODL and nobody spends BTC, isn't this becoming just a pyramid scheme?

There are always people who spend. Also, many people trade rather than hodl. As for those that hodl, they might be waiting for the time when they can properly spend it, so it's not a scheme in any way. I also intend to move to this approach of spending fiat and keeping BTC when I can, but I would love to be able to spend it as money, and I believe in it as a currency. Perhaps Andreas also wants to wait till more adoption. Or maybe he thinks the price isn't high enough, so it makes sense to him to wait longer and thus increase the purchasing power.

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 09:42:16 PM

I feel nowadays people just buy and HODL and the price keeps on going up only because less and less BTC are available on the market, being HODL by people.

That's the supply and demand effect you just described. The demand rises or stays the same at worse, but the supply keeps decreasing. it's true what you are saying. Not that long ago I read a post somewhere that says that the amount of bitcoin on cryptocurrency exchanges hasn't been this low since the 2017/2018 era. That news came out around bitcoin's recent rise to the $67k mark. Even with a new all-time high, people (especially miners) don't want to sell. That tells you that the community is confident that the price will increase even further.

Quote from: Wexnident on October 31, 2021, 12:24:20 AM

Most stores that have adopted Bitcoin payments may or may not be the ones that we regularly use in our everyday lives (it's on a person by person basis)...

In addition to that, many merchants use payment processors that immediately swap crypto to fiat for various reasons. So, even if a store accepts crypto, their end-goal is converting the coins to fiat.

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Quote from: davis196 on October 31, 2021, 12:54:13 AM

I've posted this before,but I have to post it again.
Bitcoin is "good money" because it doesn't lose it's value in the long term.
Fiat money are "bad money" because they lose their value in the long term.
The "bad money" always pushes out of circulation the "good money".This is called "Gresham's law".
Every smart person would spend his "bad money" and keep his "good money",because the "bad money" have to be spent,before they lose their value even more,and the "good money" have to be kept,because they preserve their value.

I'm glad you re-posted this analogy because I think it sums us Bitcoin spending perfectly and it certainly nails it on this topic.

It makes sense to first spend the assets that depreciates in value over the assets that appreciate in value as a function of time.

Everyone has their reasons for HODL-ing or selling their assets, and let's not forget that there is no right or wrong answer. The fact that BTC isn't being spent by many not just Andreas is a sign of future prosperity and belief that it will do well in the future. Yes, it may limit the availability of the coin but that's all an economy is about - supply and demand.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 11:05:45 AM

And if more people used it as a currency, then it would fuel adoption, would fuel growth, would fuel demand, and would fuel a rise in price.

You probably mean that it'd rise the purchasing power of bitcoin. Price rise is usually meant as rise in the exchange rate which conflicts the rest of your post.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 11:05:45 AM

We could be on the way to a monetary revolution, but instead we see centralized exchanges turning themselves in to crypto-banks, and legacy banks and financial institutions offering bitcoin ETFs and other products, creating more centralized control which most people seem absolutely happy to buy in to as long as they can make some fiat profit.

I've said this before, it's not going to change the way this world has used to work. Alas, the people would rebel when few of them are financially educated. At least, you can enjoy the constant rise of your wealth.

You know a lot about bitcoin. Can't you just enjoy what you've obtained? Taking it a step further by demanding from the rest of the world to behave same way you do and expect to all follow is unrealistic. Protesting it is the most you can do as far as I've concluded.

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Not spending Bitcoin as a currency does not make it a pyramid scheme in any way shape or form. Many people believe bitcoin to be a hedge asset and not a currency. Personally I see it as both and use it as a form of payment as often as possible. I don’t like the fact that he said this however.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 31, 2021, 10:40:32 AM

There'll always be people willing to use it as a currency. This is the fact where most of us rely on. We see it as a store of value, but the only value it stores is its future usage as a currency.

And if more people used it as a currency, then it would fuel adoption, would fuel growth, would fuel demand, and would fuel a rise in price. It is a shame that the majority only want to use bitcoin as a means to increase the amount of fiat they have, especially when we see rampant money printing, endless inflation, and Quantitative Easing Round 9001. We could be on the way to a monetary revolution, but instead we see centralized exchanges turning themselves in to crypto-banks, and legacy banks and financial institutions offering bitcoin ETFs and other products, creating more centralized control which most people seem absolutely happy to buy in to as long as they can make some fiat profit.

Bitcoin is a decentralized, peer to peer, currency. Not a centralized, third party, investment vehicle, which is sadly what it is turning in to.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 31, 2021, 05:49:25 AM

Bitcoin was built to be a currency. If you want to buy and hold it as an investment, then that's your right - anyone is free to use bitcoin in any way they choose. But if no one in the world ever used it as a currency, then it has no point and no value.

There'll always be people willing to use it as a currency. This is the fact where most of us rely on. We see it as a store of value, but the only value it stores is its future usage as a currency. A similar phenomenon happens with gold. Most of the gold owners, keep it as a store of value asset. A minority uses its useful properties.

All the world's gold is imagined to worth so much, because people know that some will always acknowledge its intrinsic value. That there will always be people who'll use it essentially. And yet, countries hold most of it without using it essentially.

This is how store of value assets work and I find it completely normal that bitcoin isn't used otherwise. It has the characteristics of the most efficient asset we've ever had.

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 10:34:52 AM

While I understand that many of us HODL, isn't this just wrong for the future of BTC. First, Satoshi created BTC as a currency. It is intended to be spent.

It may sound strange, but a lot has changed since Satoshi introduced Bitcoin to the world, and the idea of BTC being a currency is something that is fading, and not just because many complain that their fees are too high, but also because it is promoted by all those influential players in the crypto world who buy BTC as a long-term investment.

Personally, I don't think it leads in the right direction, because sooner or later most of the BTC will end up in the hands of those who will have the most money - and it will happen in a completely natural way, on the way up ordinary people will sell, the rich will buy.

10 years from now let’s imagine the following scenario :

- Mr. Mars and its companies own about 1 million BTC.
- Saylor and his Microstrategy own 2+ million BTC.
- Various other companies around the world own another 2 million BTC.
- Grayscale and similar funds that will soon become ETFs own about 10 million BTC.
- Several dozen countries have declared Bitcoin legal tender owning about 2 million BTC.
- Between 2-4 million BTC is irretrievably lost.

The question is what will eventually remain for the average Joe? Probably a lot of worthless fiat...

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Quote from: davis196 on October 31, 2021, 12:54:13 AM

I've posted this before,but I have to post it again.
Bitcoin is "good money" because it doesn't lose it's value in the long term.
Fiat money are "bad money" because they lose their value in the long term.

I feel like this is the perfect way to explain how much I hate fiat money system and why Bitcoin is a better alternative. Bitcoin is not just a currency but a digital ledger for trust. In a fiat money system, governments have the power to print money at will, and destroy or devalue it whenever they want.

This is what has happened in Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as well as in my former country, Yugoslavia, as the governments have printed more money to fund their corruption and failed economic policies.

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Quote from: superbotolo on October 30, 2021, 10:34:52 AM

I love Andreas Antonopoulos. Having said this, he recently said something in one episode of his podcast that surprised me. He was talking about living on Bitcoin and he said that he HODLs his BTC and basically spends only USD. He gets paid in all different fiat, and he spends this fiat for his daily life. When he can, he buys more BTC and HODL.

While I understand that many of us HODL, isn't this just wrong for the future of BTC. First, Satoshi created BTC as a currency. It is intended to be spent. Second, if everyone HODL and nobody spends BTC, isn't this becoming just a pyramid scheme?

I think not all people will hold their bitcoin and not sell it when the price increases so high. Besides that, bitcoin is not yet fully adopted in all countries and many contradictions about using bitcoin in many countries.

If you check on the exchanges, many traders buy and sell bitcoin because they want to make a profit in fiat and send their profit into their bank accounts. Maybe in this way, bitcoin can be an investment or a commodity in the digital world so people can use bitcoin to trade and make money. It will be almost the same as the stock in the stock trading.

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