[ANN] Bitcoin Cash - Pro on-chain scaling - Cheaper fees - page 179.

Mrpumperitis

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Quote from: jbreher on May 25, 2018, 02:58:52 PM

Quote from: Mrpumperitis on May 25, 2018, 03:30:03 AM

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

Hmm. Central banker misunderstands where the value of a currency comes from. Defines it in terms of trade balances between nations. Yet in a frictionless environment, it will not be the 'nations' that choose their adopted currency. It will be the people therein.

Personally, once most people understand the nature of a currency that cannot be inflated upon a whim, I belive they will choose such an immutable currency.

Which bodes poorly for his position.

Lastly, if he wants to ascribe correspondence between currency and 'nation', then fine. We are the nation named Internet. Deal with that, central banker dude.

What you say will happen, i agree, but not yet.
I believe it was the central bankers that made og btc so over priced in the first place.
(Davos ,world economic forum 2016 is where it began, btc price was around $500 , they were buying a few month before , around Nov2015 before the forum in 2016 at around $250)

Its very easy for them to scare away people from crypto(short term) by causing huge price manipulation...making fiat seem like the safer choice.

jbreher

legendary

Activity: 3038

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lose: unfind ... loose: untight

Quote from: Mrpumperitis on May 25, 2018, 03:30:03 AM

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

Hmm. Central banker misunderstands where the value of a currency comes from. Defines it in terms of trade balances between nations. Yet in a frictionless environment, it will not be the 'nations' that choose their adopted currency. It will be the people therein.

Personally, once most people understand the nature of a currency that cannot be inflated upon a whim, I belive they will choose such an immutable currency.

Which bodes poorly for his position.

Lastly, if he wants to ascribe correspondence between currency and 'nation', then fine. We are the nation named Internet. Deal with that, central banker dude.

Mrpumperitis

legendary

Activity: 2758

Merit: 1075

Quote from: tomkat on May 25, 2018, 04:28:11 AM

Quote from: Mrpumperitis on May 25, 2018, 03:30:03 AM

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

I said a few month back around $2k to mine 1 og btc...
Probably going to go lower than that ( $800-$1400 possible )

The energy is obviously not the only cost of mining, so his hypothetical value is far from realistic.
To mine 1 BTC with 1 Antminer S9 one needs 1223 days at constant (=current) difficulty.
The energy used during that time would be ~40k kWh (cost ~ $2000 at $0.05 per kWh).
S9 price is ~$900-1000, so energy + miner would be $3000, and then there're other costs, like employees, buildings, HVAC, repairs, etc.

True for the average consumer(miner)your prices are probably accurate.
However for industrial scale miners, its not, its alot cheaper.
They buy asics in bulk and get cheaper elec, leading to huge savings.

Also the producers of asics are always ahead.
While average miners use s9, the asic producers will be using "testing" s10 and be creating s11 always remain a few steps ahead of the rest.

jbreher

legendary

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lose: unfind ... loose: untight

Quote from: cointopper on May 25, 2018, 02:58:38 AM

Hello Bitcoin Cash believers,

Our aim is to add value to the whole crypto community by giving the best user experience to analyse cryptocurrencies.

It would be really great help from your side if you can spend 60 seconds of your time and give us your valuable feedback for our two recent updates 1) Snapshot and 2) Colourful interface of Bitcoin Cash at: https://cointopper.com/coin/bitcoincash

Constructive criticisms are always welcome at CoinTopper. Thank you!!

I am unlikely to adopt a different coin tracker. That said, I can think of one improvement. In advance mode, you show things other than usd price in differing colors. I would suggest placing a dot of color next to each of the figures that surround the chart. The popup tooltip works, but obscures part of the chart detail, and would be unneeded with this addition.

nick1492

full member

Activity: 448

Merit: 100

It may seems that right now, BCH infrastructures are not layed out yet. Bitcoin have done it in 8 years to reach a thousand dollars per coin. BCH made a thousand dollars in less than a year. With support of miners and organizers, it can still reach what BTC have achieved. It is still a long way to go. I still do believe on BCH.

hv_

legendary

Activity: 2534

Merit: 1055

Clean Code and Scale

Quote from: tomkat on May 25, 2018, 04:28:11 AM

Quote from: Mrpumperitis on May 25, 2018, 03:30:03 AM

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

I said a few month back around $2k to mine 1 og btc...
Probably going to go lower than that ( $800-$1400 possible )

The energy is obviously not the only cost of mining, so his hypothetical value is far from realistic.
To mine 1 BTC with 1 Antminer S9 one needs 1223 days at constant (=current) difficulty.
The energy used during that time would be ~40k kWh (cost ~ $2000 at $0.05 per kWh).
S9 price is ~$900-1000, so energy + miner would be $3000, and then there're other costs, like employees, buildings, HVAC, repairs, etc.

Volatility in market price and difficulty. And many more operational risk you take as well. All costs you might pay.

tomkat

hero member

Activity: 1022

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Quote from: Mrpumperitis on May 25, 2018, 03:30:03 AM

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

I said a few month back around $2k to mine 1 og btc...
Probably going to go lower than that ( $800-$1400 possible )

The energy is obviously not the only cost of mining, so his hypothetical value is far from realistic.
To mine 1 BTC with 1 Antminer S9 one needs 1223 days at constant (=current) difficulty.
The energy used during that time would be ~40k kWh (cost ~ $2000 at $0.05 per kWh).
S9 price is ~$900-1000, so energy + miner would be $3000, and then there're other costs, like employees, buildings, HVAC, repairs, etc.

Mrpumperitis

legendary

Activity: 2758

Merit: 1075

https://www.merkle.press/2018/05/bitcoin-price-has-hypothetical-value-of.html
Bitcoin Price Has Hypothetical Value of $1,800: Federal Reserve Report
“Although Bitcoins do not possess any real intrinsic value, from a commodity valuation perspective, we can estimate a hypothetical value based on its production costs. Recent estimates regarding the energy involved in mining a single Bitcoin by professional energy-efficient mining rigs put it at about $1,800 when mined in China (where 80% of the currently mined Bitcoins originate).

I said a few month back around $2k to mine 1 og btc...
Probably going to go lower than that ( $800-$1400 possible )

cointopper

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 2

Hello Bitcoin Cash believers,

Our aim is to add value to the whole crypto community by giving the best user experience to analyse cryptocurrencies.

It would be really great help from your side if you can spend 60 seconds of your time and give us your valuable feedback for our two recent updates 1) Snapshot and 2) Colourful interface of Bitcoin Cash at: https://cointopper.com/coin/bitcoincash

Constructive criticisms are always welcome at CoinTopper. Thank you!!

Big Naturals

sr. member

Activity: 756

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Quote from: OWZ1337 on May 23, 2018, 12:10:13 PM

https://youtu.be/rfOlE-mmYBo?t=111

^Craig Wright kicked out of China !! Shocked

*must see*

CSW is definitely a prickly dude, but if you invite international people to a conference discussion then isn't it customary to speak in a language everyone can understand? I assume the conference organisers would prefer all participants know what is being said, otherwise it's totally pointless inviting someone to your discussion if they can't understand what other people are saying.

CSW doesn't suffer fools well, isn't bothered with trying to build a reputation as a nice guy, he says what he thinks and feels, and sometimes he looks rude, but in this instance the blame for what happened is on the conference organisers for not politely asking that questions and answers be given in English, when the dude started a long answer in Chinese what was CSW expected to do, wait for him to finish and then say, can you repeat everything you just said in English, what a waste of time.

jbreher

legendary

Activity: 3038

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lose: unfind ... loose: untight

Quote from: mindrust on May 24, 2018, 11:33:04 AM

Anybody still holding this crap? Get out while you still can it doesn't have much time left. Read this and you'll understand what a gamble bcash is:

https://medium.com/@StopAndDecrypt/the-ethereum-blockchain-size-has-exceeded-1tb-and-yes-its-an-issue-2b650b5f4f62

Riiiight. A well-reasoned post. Unfortunately, the 'reasoning' is built atop invalid axioms. The author completely misunderstands the nature of the game theory that holds the entire system together.

As just one of several flawed assumptions, the author presumes that miners are willing to include each and every transaction within an ever-increasing block, in the face of the system being unable to handle that condition. Of course they won't. They will stop including transactions before it causes the system to crash.

However you look at it, however, the only _real_ investigation that I know of that has looked into the matter concluded that generic home computing hardware can handle about 100 tx/s - and with fixes to Bitcoin's broken threading model, about 500 tx/s.

Yes, some day, 500 tx/s will be insufficient. But not today. Not tomorrow. Not next year (at least unlikely to be).

I won't even start on how cringe-worthy his 'ratio between potential bottleneck sources' analysis is. I don't know whether to conclude that he is disingenuous, or just dense.

jbreher

legendary

Activity: 3038

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lose: unfind ... loose: untight

Quote from: OWZ1337 on May 23, 2018, 12:10:13 PM

Quote from: jbreher on May 23, 2018, 11:35:01 AM

Quote from: bones261 on May 22, 2018, 09:41:12 PM

BCH has to deal with the transaction malleability bug in order to implement something like LN, which relies on the transaction id to be fixed.

Close, but not quite. The current implementation of LN requires a malleability fix (which it has accomplished by means of segwit). However, other second-layer, payment channel implementations have been designed and scenarioed which do not require such a malleability fix.

Quote

(segwit fixed the transaction malleability bug.) However, someone may come up with a work around using the OPcodes. Or there may be another way to fix the transaction malleability.

BCH has for some time been discussing whether or not to adopt a malleability fix. And if so, whether segwit or some other mechanism (several have been scenarioed) would be the proper mechanism to adopt.

Quote

However, I think it is low priority for the BCH team to get BCH to scale by using off chain solutions.

Agreed. While it is a longer-term issue, there are much more pressing things upon which to focus.

https://youtu.be/rfOlE-mmYBo?t=111

^Craig Wright kicked out of China !! Shocked

*must see*

Well, no. Not quite. Not even close. More like Craig Wright getting escorted out of a conference room - by one of his own employees, no less.

It's an ugly scene, no doubt. A full complement of blame to go around. Not much more than rude boys behaving badly.

As an aside, I wonder why you tacked that on to a quote of a completely unrelated post I made?

bitcoinPsycho

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$120000 in 2024 Confirmed

Quote from: mindrust on May 24, 2018, 11:33:04 AM

Anybody still holding this crap? Get out while you still can it doesn't have much time left. Read this and you'll understand what a gamble bcash is:

https://medium.com/@StopAndDecrypt/the-ethereum-blockchain-size-has-exceeded-1tb-and-yes-its-an-issue-2b650b5f4f62

Good read

"My Prediction: Ethereum will implement a blocksize cap and it will race BCash to both of their deaths"

buriks

sr. member

Activity: 826

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Quote from: mindrust on May 24, 2018, 11:33:04 AM

Anybody still holding this crap? Get out while you still can it doesn't have much time left. Read this and you'll understand what a gamble bcash is:

https://medium.com/@StopAndDecrypt/the-ethereum-blockchain-size-has-exceeded-1tb-and-yes-its-an-issue-2b650b5f4f62

thanks, I will not know this information if you do not share it here

mindrust

legendary

Activity: 3276

Merit: 2442

Anybody still holding this crap? Get out while you still can it doesn't have much time left. Read this and you'll understand what a gamble bcash is:

https://medium.com/@StopAndDecrypt/the-ethereum-blockchain-size-has-exceeded-1tb-and-yes-its-an-issue-2b650b5f4f62

mkkalam

newbie

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If you are talking about the White paper, then you can find it freely available on the Internet in any language. I advise you to study it thoroughly first and then ask such questions, "the white paper of the Bitcoin cash for 2018" sounds very funny!

shixd8899

member

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Every time the encryption is adjusted as a whole, the Bitcoin Cash coin is still relatively resistant. BCH has very good prospects in the field of payment.

hv_

legendary

Activity: 2534

Merit: 1055

Clean Code and Scale

Freedom of choice
Freedom of trade
Freedom of economics
Freedom of speach

Freedom of use

https://youtu.be/LcRqFV_1HWI

Mrpumperitis

legendary

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Merit: 1075

Ive been catching up on this 1% funding from mining pools...
Imo,voluntary donations from miners to devs is ok

If made compulsory (i doubt it will)... but if it is , i think it would be a bad idea....
I also think funding for projects should not come from the block reward..ever.

1% today ...will mean in future it will only go higher,
Either the funding will want more % or more reasons will be given to give others 1% and then another !% for something else...

Storing funds for projects will be open for abuse,
Who decides where the funds are held and by who?

How long will they want funding for?
The 1% of coin in fiat value today will probably be worth 1000x more in 10years+ , thats alot of money, by then BCH will have global adoption.

What if the fund grows alot and is stolen "the dao" style...

BCH could slowly end up more like dash than Bitcoin, if we make certain fundamental changes (like where the block reward goes and how much of it)
Probably many more reasons from others..

There are other ways,
I hear good things about Lighthouse.

Big Naturals

sr. member

Activity: 756

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Quote from: bones261 on May 22, 2018, 09:41:12 PM

Quote from: Big Naturals on May 22, 2018, 08:55:36 PM

Quote from: bones261 on May 22, 2018, 07:47:44 PM

Quote from: Satosho Kakamolto on May 22, 2018, 01:05:48 PM

I didn't really understand what the new hard fork will change in Bitcoin Cash.

Enabled OPCODES. This should make programming smart contracts possible.
Block size limit is now 32MB instead of 8 MB.

Those two changes alone make bch flippening much more likely, and probably sooner than many realise.

Is there any project currently working on Bitcoin cash second layer scaling options similar to LN ?

Also, is there a viable Bitcoin cash version of counterparty?

IF/WHEN the flippening happens can bch accommodate these other technologies like LN without further updates like segwit?

BCH has to deal with the transaction malleability bug in order to implement something like LN, which relies on the transaction id to be fixed. (segwit fixed the transaction malleability bug.) However, someone may come up with a work around using the OPcodes. Or there may be another way to fix the transaction malleability. However, I think it is low priority for the BCH team to get BCH to scale by using off chain solutions. Being able to implement atomic swaps would be nice. However, Craight Wright seems to think that BCH will eventually replace all other crytopcurrencies. Everything else will only have very limited use cases, according to his vision.

Thanks for your reply, this thread is much more interesting when people are discussing the tech issues that separate btc and bch, the governance issues and politics is important too, but the short term market action and personalities much less so, this battle is critical for the whole crypto community, and helping non tech people understand the real issues is very important.

If transaction malleability can be fixed without segwit, and thus second layers can be added onto bch in another way, that would be cool. Segwit always looks dodgy to me,

Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Cash - Pro on-chain scaling - Cheaper fees - page 179. (Read 704529 times)