Topic: [ANN BTCJam] - Loans denominated in other currencies (USD/EUR/RU) (Read 3541 times)
September 09, 2013, 01:50:44 AM
nice idea i like it! no more long waiting time and paperwork by banks.. hura
March 28, 2013, 04:01:37 PM
- I assume you use the same sell price (updated every 7 minutes) to determine the payment amount in BTC upon payment?
- Where can I see the BTC sell rate being currently used on the BTCjam website? I want to know exactly the rate I am accepting when activating a loan and paying an instalment. 7 minutes is a long time with a volatile BTC/USD exchange rate.
- If the exact rate is not available, could you at least indicate the 7 minute interval for exchange rate updates. At what time does the 7 minute interval start? 12:00 AM, 12:07 AM, 12:14 AM etc?
The exchange rate being used is displayed side by side with the bitcoin value at every payment.
The exchange rate at activation will be included at the activation dialog ASAP (today). I will also change the update interval to 3 minutes.
The site has been updated. The exchange rate update interval is now set to 3 minutes and you can see the exchange rate used both on activation and payment dialogs.
Thanks for the update. It is working well. Can you do something about the formatting of tables on mobile devices. I have tried 3 different browsers on android and on all of them the payment button is missing in on the loans page. The last 2 columns are cut off from view.
March 28, 2013, 02:54:17 PM
- I assume you use the same sell price (updated every 7 minutes) to determine the payment amount in BTC upon payment?
- Where can I see the BTC sell rate being currently used on the BTCjam website? I want to know exactly the rate I am accepting when activating a loan and paying an instalment. 7 minutes is a long time with a volatile BTC/USD exchange rate.
- If the exact rate is not available, could you at least indicate the 7 minute interval for exchange rate updates. At what time does the 7 minute interval start? 12:00 AM, 12:07 AM, 12:14 AM etc?
The exchange rate being used is displayed side by side with the bitcoin value at every payment.
The exchange rate at activation will be included at the activation dialog ASAP (today). I will also change the update interval to 3 minutes.
The site has been updated. The exchange rate update interval is now set to 3 minutes and you can see the exchange rate used both on activation and payment dialogs.
March 27, 2013, 12:36:40 PM
When creating a loan linked to MtGoxUSD, what rate is used to determine the equivalent USD value of the loan when it is activated and then the equivalent amount of BTC when it is repaid?
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
At activation, using the last sell price (updated every 7 minutes).
- I assume you use the same sell price (updated every 7 minutes) to determine the payment amount in BTC upon payment?
- Where can I see the BTC sell rate being currently used on the BTCjam website? I want to know exactly the rate I am accepting when activating a loan and paying an instalment. 7 minutes is a long time with a volatile BTC/USD exchange rate.
- If the exact rate is not available, could you at least indicate the 7 minute interval for exchange rate updates. At what time does the 7 minute interval start? 12:00 AM, 12:07 AM, 12:14 AM etc?
The exchange rate being used is displayed side by side with the bitcoin value at every payment.
The exchange rate at activation will be included at the activation dialog ASAP (today). I will also change the update interval to 3 minutes.
March 27, 2013, 08:40:28 AM
When creating a loan linked to MtGoxUSD, what rate is used to determine the equivalent USD value of the loan when it is activated and then the equivalent amount of BTC when it is repaid?
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
At activation, using the last sell price (updated every 7 minutes).
- I assume you use the same sell price (updated every 7 minutes) to determine the payment amount in BTC upon payment?
- Where can I see the BTC sell rate being currently used on the BTCjam website? I want to know exactly the rate I am accepting when activating a loan and paying an instalment. 7 minutes is a long time with a volatile BTC/USD exchange rate.
- If the exact rate is not available, could you at least indicate the 7 minute interval for exchange rate updates. At what time does the 7 minute interval start? 12:00 AM, 12:07 AM, 12:14 AM etc?
March 26, 2013, 07:57:36 PM
When creating a loan linked to MtGoxUSD, what rate is used to determine the equivalent USD value of the loan when it is activated and then the equivalent amount of BTC when it is repaid?
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
At activation, using the last sell price (updated every 7 minutes).
March 26, 2013, 09:18:03 AM
When creating a loan linked to MtGoxUSD, what rate is used to determine the equivalent USD value of the loan when it is activated and then the equivalent amount of BTC when it is repaid?
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
Is it the last price on the MtGox website or some weighted average for an hour, 6 hours, a day? Where can I see the exact rate that is used? I need to know at what rate I am working with.
March 03, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
http://www.judge.me/ I think you should integrate this into the site and people wanting to get loans could pay the $150 fee upfront as a "bond". Anyone who lent money to the person can then contribute to the case fee if a default happens.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
Yes, we are in contact with then.
Hahah yah I had a funny chat over your site with a judge.me employee ;/
March 03, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
http://www.judge.me/ I think you should integrate this into the site and people wanting to get loans could pay the $150 fee upfront as a "bond". Anyone who lent money to the person can then contribute to the case fee if a default happens.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
Yes, we are in contact with then.
March 02, 2013, 11:07:48 PM
http://www.judge.me/ I think you should integrate this into the site and people wanting to get loans could pay the $150 fee upfront as a "bond". Anyone who lent money to the person can then contribute to the case fee if a default happens.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
The personal details you collect can then be sent to the impartial third parties. It would make collection of the debt easier.
March 02, 2013, 10:25:03 PM
It clearly states that the loan amount is 50 BTC and the payment is 17.00111 BTC per month, but those are completely false. The amount paid back will not be 50 BTC and the payments will not be 17.00111 BTC. Both will change depending on what happens in the future. My suggestion is to show the numbers in the currency of the loan agreement. Otherwise, you are going to have a lot of angry lenders who were fooled by the hidden terms of the loan.
I see. Yes, this is confusing.
This needs more clarification. The point is we also must be clear about the fact this is not a USD loan.
March 02, 2013, 07:51:05 PM
I am also concerned that Tulkas is confused. Compare these two contradictory quotes.
In the first one, the borrower returns the principal's value in USD. In the second, the borrower returns the borrowed amount about regardless of the value of USD.
In the first one, the borrower returns the principal's value in USD. In the second, the borrower returns the borrowed amount about regardless of the value of USD.
You borrow 30.0 BTC today, to pay next month, suppose BTC is at USD$30.00.
Next month you will make the payment, BTC price is now USD$ 60, instead of paying 30 BTC back, you will pay 15 BTC, the amount in MtGox USD remains constant.
Next month you will make the payment, BTC price is now USD$ 60, instead of paying 30 BTC back, you will pay 15 BTC, the amount in MtGox USD remains constant.
If you borrow 10 bitcoins today, to pay next month, you will theoretically pay aprox. USD $300.
Now suppose that in 10 days the bitcoin price jumps to USD$ 1000.00 per bitcoin, you still need to pay 10 bitcoins back, but now you will need USD$ 10,000.00 to buy 10 bitcoins!
Now suppose that in 10 days the bitcoin price jumps to USD$ 1000.00 per bitcoin, you still need to pay 10 bitcoins back, but now you will need USD$ 10,000.00 to buy 10 bitcoins!
I gave two opposite examples. The first illustrates the USD referenced loan, the other a BTC referenced loan.
You never answered my question about what happens when a user verfies all doc and decides to scam you with out ever paying you back and it says right here https://btcjam.com/legal/rules_for_borrowers. "Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this contract, or the breach of this contract, shall be settled by binding internet arbitration to be defined. The arbitrator's decision shall be final and legally binding and judgment may be entered thereon."
I think I deserve at least a responce like "hay man I'm sorry that you got scammed on my site but you gotta watch out for those people who verify all documents and whose credit score was a 14/17. And you gotta watch out when I don't do anything with this documents even though I claim I will on my site peace out sucker."
I'd love a public reponce man can you at least do that for m.?
March 02, 2013, 07:16:02 PM
I am also concerned that Tulkas is confused. Compare these two contradictory quotes.
In the first one, the borrower returns the principal's value in USD. In the second, the borrower returns the borrowed amount about regardless of the value of USD.
In the first one, the borrower returns the principal's value in USD. In the second, the borrower returns the borrowed amount about regardless of the value of USD.
You borrow 30.0 BTC today, to pay next month, suppose BTC is at USD$30.00.
Next month you will make the payment, BTC price is now USD$ 60, instead of paying 30 BTC back, you will pay 15 BTC, the amount in MtGox USD remains constant.
Next month you will make the payment, BTC price is now USD$ 60, instead of paying 30 BTC back, you will pay 15 BTC, the amount in MtGox USD remains constant.
If you borrow 10 bitcoins today, to pay next month, you will theoretically pay aprox. USD $300.
Now suppose that in 10 days the bitcoin price jumps to USD$ 1000.00 per bitcoin, you still need to pay 10 bitcoins back, but now you will need USD$ 10,000.00 to buy 10 bitcoins!
Now suppose that in 10 days the bitcoin price jumps to USD$ 1000.00 per bitcoin, you still need to pay 10 bitcoins back, but now you will need USD$ 10,000.00 to buy 10 bitcoins!
I gave two opposite examples. The first illustrates the USD referenced loan, the other a BTC referenced loan.
March 01, 2013, 09:30:28 PM
Yeah, now that this is becoming clearer ,I will avoid these loans. If I want to lend dollars, I'll use my lending club account long before btcjam where borrowers are actually verified and go through proper underwriting.
March 01, 2013, 09:25:38 PM
I don't think this is actually hedging at all, but rather allowing loans denominated in other currencies but settled in BTC...
Who decides on the "hedge"? The borrower when creating the listing or the lender when funding?
Who decides on the "hedge"? The borrower when creating the listing or the lender when funding?
The loan is still denominated in Bitcoin.
When the listing is activated the aquivalent amount of the loan is calculated using the other currency.
When the payments are made, the amount to be paid in bitcoin is calculated using the current exchange rate (accordingly to MtGox) with the target currency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_(finance)#Categories_of_hedgeable_risk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_risk
The loan is NOT denominated in Bitcoin. It's denominated in USD but transacted in BTC.
You should be able to work this out for yourself by considering the question "how much will the repayment be?". When you realise that you can ONLY give an answer to that in USD yoi've just worked out what the loan is denominated in.
Additionally, all such loans should have the amount of the loan AND the size of payments displayed in USD:
1. So lenders have it made very clear to them that what they get back will be valued in USD.
2. Because if the borrower wants to borrow USD then the amount they want to borrow is likely set in USD not BTC (i.e. they want to borrow BTC sufficient to buy something work X USD).
At present people are going to lend to these sort of loans without noticing that if they mouse over the USD/GOX symbol it tells them that what they get back depends on an exchange-rate. There should be no possibility for such misunderstandings.
Its highly misleading to say that BTC has anything at all to do with these loans. http://www.prosper.com/ one may as well use this and avoid the bitcoin scammers.
March 01, 2013, 09:20:19 PM
I don't think this is actually hedging at all, but rather allowing loans denominated in other currencies but settled in BTC...
Who decides on the "hedge"? The borrower when creating the listing or the lender when funding?
Who decides on the "hedge"? The borrower when creating the listing or the lender when funding?
The loan is still denominated in Bitcoin.
When the listing is activated the aquivalent amount of the loan is calculated using the other currency.
When the payments are made, the amount to be paid in bitcoin is calculated using the current exchange rate (accordingly to MtGox) with the target currency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_(finance)#Categories_of_hedgeable_risk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_risk
The loan is NOT denominated in Bitcoin. It's denominated in USD but transacted in BTC.
You should be able to work this out for yourself by considering the question "how much will the repayment be?". When you realise that you can ONLY give an answer to that in USD yoi've just worked out what the loan is denominated in.
Additionally, all such loans should have the amount of the loan AND the size of payments displayed in USD:
1. So lenders have it made very clear to them that what they get back will be valued in USD.
2. Because if the borrower wants to borrow USD then the amount they want to borrow is likely set in USD not BTC (i.e. they want to borrow BTC sufficient to buy something work X USD).
At present people are going to lend to these sort of loans without noticing that if they mouse over the USD/GOX symbol it tells them that what they get back depends on an exchange-rate. There should be no possibility for such misunderstandings.
February 28, 2013, 08:50:06 PM
Loaning someone 10btc and then getting back only 5btc because the USD sucks ass isnt a good investment plan.
Loaning someone 10btc and then getting back only 10 btc despite the trading price plummeted isn't a good investment plan eitherr.
February 28, 2013, 07:58:07 PM
Loaning someone 10btc and then getting back only 5btc because the USD sucks ass isnt a good investment plan.
February 24, 2013, 06:30:12 PM
Sounds like nothing more than a calculation provided for the borrowers convince, but actually serves no real purpose. You might look at actually providing a hedge to protect from a rising bitcoin value against fiat for an added fee by buying calls.
Please, read the OP again.
If you borrow 10 bitcoins today, to pay next month, you will theoretically pay aprox. USD $300.
Now suppose that in 10 days the bitcoin price jumps to USD$ 1000.00 per bitcoin, you still need to pay 10 bitcoins back, but now you will need USD$ 10,000.00 to buy 10 bitcoins!
yah i really do give a fuck im sorry but if i gave you 10,000$ and next month 1& was worth 10,000 i'd still want the 10k because most loans arent used right away they sit till they are at the last second also this would allow people to say get a 1000btc loan for 1 year and just have it sit then when they have to pay up they simply send it one BTC
profit 99BTC(if the exchange rate is exploded) so it only benifeits people who need loans not the lenders which are the most important.
also im done with your site because iv'e loaned out to people who have 5 postive loans repaid and then they just leave with out paying back shit and all their doxs are verifed.
take this listing for example https://btcjam.com/listings/1783 this is a fucking kid who has almost every dox verified and i might never get my coins back and this motherfucker has verified i know hes a kid becuase the number he gave me after wanting more money went to his dads cellphone his fucking dads phone and his dad tells me he is a "con artist".
so if i get my money back im never coming back to this site while nice it still to easy to scam people even if you verify your dox.......................
February 21, 2013, 02:32:17 PM
At this point, I sure wish I was able to index my loan in USD instead of BTC... since BTC has more than doubled in price since I took it out. 
-- Smoov
-- Smoov
Agreed. Though having it pegged at USD at this point wouldn't be very attractive either...
-- Smoov
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