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Topic: [ANN] Introducing the Mt.Gox Trusted Vendor Program (Read 3773 times)

edd
donator
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1002
All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.



Any update on this?  I found this thread because I saw a particular business claiming to be a Mt.Gox trusted vendor and I want to verify it.
btradeaustralia.com

Has MtGox really implemented a 'trusted vendor program' without any easy way to confirm?? Bizarre.


I had just assumed this idea had died on the vine. How odd that a relatively unknown site is chosen as a "trusted" vendor over any that Mt. Gox has a professional relationship with.

The design of the trusted vendor logo at btradeaustralia.com instills very little confidence, however.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.



Any update on this?  I found this thread because I saw a particular business claiming to be a Mt.Gox trusted vendor and I want to verify it.
btradeaustralia.com

Has MtGox really implemented a 'trusted vendor program' without any easy way to confirm?? Bizarre.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
All the previous (and old) discussion aside, I cannot find a list of currently trusted vendors available on Mt.Gox Website. The way I see it now, anyone can put a logo on their Website and link to https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120705.html

How does this "improve confidence in Bitcoin businesses for consumers"? A consumer cannot easily verify that a business is verified by Mt.Gox as trusted.

sr. member
Activity: 303
Merit: 251
It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.


Personally, I do not see Mt Gox as evil and I applaud the work that they are doing in the front lines of where BTC meets national currencies. Furthermore, their non-US legal jurisdiction should serve them well in the future.
edd
donator
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1002
Just to be clear, I have never had a problem with Mt. Gox and I use them on a regular basis. I've even corresponded with Mark and others and they've been nothing but professional.

A "trusted by Mt. Gox" emblem, however, seems to me will be as helpful as belonging to the Better Business Bureau: giving the impression of more integrity than what's been earned and easily susceptible to corruption. My first boss once told me that the BBB kept files on businesses with details of customer complaints and your file "conveniently" improved once you joined and began paying dues. I never had an opportunity to verify this, but the point is, the checks and balances necessary to prevent it just aren't there.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.

Now to make things worse (for us) we have a fully acknowledge Withdrawal problem with Dwolla and by now you must ALL KNOW the reason why, there is also a small number of international withdrawal that are affected, but this as well we have been explained many times : most of the time user affected reach a threshold with several withdrawal that can trigger a check from a GVT or a BNK. And when a company with our volume start to send huge amount of money on a daily basis to international costumers we are subject to random checks, like for example at the airport/immigration.
Most people do not understand the situation here and see the problem with their local point of view. Tomorrow Mr Jon Doe could start an exchange in the US, Open an account and deal with US customers. This I can tell you will not raise any problems at first, start to deal with a lot more of money and customers and become the 2nd Tradehill (in Volume) and you will see how things will turn. Now add a layer of "Internationalization" to it and "voila" you do not have one more country or bank to deal with but a lot more and a lot more potential problem and risks.

Tight verification, yeah I know you all hate it, after all Bitcoin was supposed to be the holy grail of anonymity, and actually Bitcoin is pretty close to it IF and ONLY IF you Mine coins and spend coins without ever needing to cash IN/OU these coins. But reality force us, at some point to deal with Banks that are not seeing the overall Bitcoin thingy the same we we see it. We are no different than you, we value our privacy but we do not have a choice. If we do not comply with such basic verification process we will sooner or later loose all our financial partner due to fraud and risk meaning that ultimately you will no longer be able to buy or sell your coin. And this my dear friends ANY Bitcoin company Helping you yo cash IN/OUT have or will have to deal with it at one point, this is JUST a question of time.

Are we perfect? No! But we are working into making things faster and safer for our customers and hope to achieve perfection at some point. So this Trusted Vendor Program is nothing more than a seal (that will be soon be improved) let people know : Yes we know this merchant, they are legit and they gave us all documents to prove us that they are who they are.
+100

My thanks to Mark and the other members of the MtGox team for being patient enough to explain all this (over and over again) Wink

MtGox really is critical and we're lucky that the 'Tux is willing to spend so much time dealing with bankers and lawyers on our behalf.
I'm sure he gets a very fair compensation for his trouble Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
My thanks to Mark and the other members of the MtGox team for being patient enough to explain all this (over and over again) Wink

MtGox really is critical and we're lucky that the 'Tux is willing to spend so much time dealing with bankers and lawyers on our behalf.
vip
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
It seems that a lot of people see us as "EVIL" and the next bad thing to kill or abolish... Well this is "normal" after all, MtGox has been the leading exchange since quite sometimes now and despite having many different new players coming in we are still on top, so yes we understand that to some we can be seen as monopolistic despite the fact that we are just a drop in the Bitcoin Ocean. Mt.Gox is not Bitcoin and will never be, we are just an exchange with a huge volume and more track records that many others today. Today it is us, tomorrow it may be someone else and we live with it, but we are working hard to keep our edge with our Merchant Solution and this new Trusted Vendor program.

Now to make things worse (for us) we have a fully acknowledge Withdrawal problem with Dwolla and by now you must ALL KNOW the reason why, there is also a small number of international withdrawal that are affected, but this as well we have been explained many times : most of the time user affected reach a threshold with several withdrawal that can trigger a check from a GVT or a BNK. And when a company with our volume start to send huge amount of money on a daily basis to international costumers we are subject to random checks, like for example at the airport/immigration.
Most people do not understand the situation here and see the problem with their local point of view. Tomorrow Mr Jon Doe could start an exchange in the US, Open an account and deal with US customers. This I can tell you will not raise any problems at first, start to deal with a lot more of money and customers and become the 2nd Tradehill (in Volume) and you will see how things will turn. Now add a layer of "Internationalization" to it and "voila" you do not have one more country or bank to deal with but a lot more and a lot more potential problem and risks.

Tight verification, yeah I know you all hate it, after all Bitcoin was supposed to be the holy grail of anonymity, and actually Bitcoin is pretty close to it IF and ONLY IF you Mine coins and spend coins without ever needing to cash IN/OU these coins. But reality force us, at some point to deal with Banks that are not seeing the overall Bitcoin thingy the same we we see it. We are no different than you, we value our privacy but we do not have a choice. If we do not comply with such basic verification process we will sooner or later loose all our financial partner due to fraud and risk meaning that ultimately you will no longer be able to buy or sell your coin. And this my dear friends ANY Bitcoin company Helping you yo cash IN/OUT have or will have to deal with it at one point, this is JUST a question of time.

Are we perfect? No! But we are working into making things faster and safer for our customers and hope to achieve perfection at some point. So this Trusted Vendor Program is nothing more than a seal (that will be soon be improved) let people know : Yes we know this merchant, they are legit and they gave us all documents to prove us that they are who they are.
sr. member
Activity: 303
Merit: 251
Another good step in the right direction would be to actually pay people the funds they withdrew.  Roll Eyes

This is the essence of the issue, really, for any BTC exchanger or vendor. As bitcoin moves into the area of Tor and 'lex mercatoria' with less dependence on State-invented regulations like AML/KYC or the BSA of 1970, trust without jurisdiction moves to the forefront.

We are reminded that money laundering is an artificial crime totally made up and non-existent about 20-30 years ago. Before it was invented as a term, it was merely called "banking".

http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/doug-casey-cashless-societies
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
I think that some people are reading too much into this based on some weird government paranoia. This has nothing to do with the government, it has to do with Bitcoin users being able to trust that a merchant is a real person or a real company. Bitcoin is the wild west of the Internet after all and trust is what keeps it together. More trust is better.

There are other ways though, for instance the extended validation certificate is a good way of adding trust. Our company doesn't quite afford that yet but we'll make the upgrade at some point.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
I don't see how this could be leveraged into monopoly unless people stop trusting any merchant that isn't MtGox verified. If that happens, all it means is we need to do a better job of building out trustworthy markets and dispute mediation protocols. Not a problem.
sr. member
Activity: 574
Merit: 250
My point exactly... monopolies are bad, monopolies taking it upon themselves to anoint who is "trusted" and who is not, is even worse. This is a predictable step for an overpowering player in a market to make to cement their control of the market eg: If Business X is willing to play with Gox, then X will become a trusted vendor, regardless of what X might be up to because Gox has to validate their system by having "trusted vendors". Just as I wouldn't trust an auto company to make reasonable standards for the safety of their product, I don't consider the 800 pound gorilla of exchanges deciding who is a good vendor or not by criteria that they and they alone set.

And that's before we even get to the AML/KYC issues. Anyone who has had legal or business dealings in Japan can speak to the challenges if government decides they want to access your data/customer base/transaction histories, and Mt Gox is based where? There you go. They have no choice but to lay down and play nice if a single ministry so much as looks at then sideways, no court orders, no due process and no particular reason required.
edd
donator
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1002
An equally useful approach would be to put General Motors in charge of automobile safety standards. I expect we will soon see accelerated processing for "trusted" vendors and their customers. This is one of those sad moments when you realize your child is maturing and turning out to be just as evil and stupid as his parents.

Ummm how exactly do these two compare? The way I read it they're just saying that they'll share these verification details with the public so peeps can know that the person on the other end is who he/she say she is. That way you don't have to run around too much knocking on wrong doors with a bat sticking up over your shoulder, while trying to collect if you've been ripped off. All this is going to do is make scamming harder, or not?

I don't believe Mt. Gox said anywhere that they will share verification details. All they are doing is vouching for vendors who have gone through their verification process, giving them permission to use a logo that basically says "Mt. Gox vouches for us." As LoupGaroux point out, this opens the door to all manner of shady practices. It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox succumbs to the temptation to use their position for unethical dealings or not, the opportunity for it exists.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
bitcoin hundred-aire
Another good step in the right direction would be to actually pay people the funds they withdrew.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
AurumXChange and Bitinstant have had 'Trusted Vendor' status for a few months now.

The only difference is now I can put a MtGox Logo on my website?
hero member
Activity: 1138
Merit: 523
An equally useful approach would be to put General Motors in charge of automobile safety standards. I expect we will soon see accelerated processing for "trusted" vendors and their customers. This is one of those sad moments when you realize your child is maturing and turning out to be just as evil and stupid as his parents.

Ummm how exactly do these two compare? The way I read it they're just saying that they'll share these verification details with the public so peeps can know that the person on the other end is who he/she say she is. That way you don't have to run around too much knocking on wrong doors with a bat sticking up over your shoulder, while trying to collect if you've been ripped off. All this is going to do is make scamming harder, or not?

sr. member
Activity: 426
Merit: 250
Will there be an other way to benefit form the trusted vendor program? We do a lot of trading trough mtgox, but we don't use the mtgox payment services. Maybe provide a list on which we could refer to?
sr. member
Activity: 574
Merit: 250
An equally useful approach would be to put General Motors in charge of automobile safety standards. I expect we will soon see accelerated processing for "trusted" vendors and their customers. This is one of those sad moments when you realize your child is maturing and turning out to be just as evil and stupid as his parents.
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1311
This is a much needed step in the right direction.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
I think this is a good step forward, so thanks to MtGox for effectively donating to the community the ID verification work they are doing.

Exactly

I fully support and encourage any voluntary certification program that establishes the identity, location, reputation, and trustworthiness of a specific vendor.

However, I oppose any certification program that establishes AML or KYC compliance... these are statist standards that have nothing to do with respectability nor trustworthiness of the vendor (and nothing to do with protecting customers). They have everything to do with obedience to government, and breaching privacy between two voluntarily contracting parties.

To use Coinabul as the example here: I want them to provide the goods they promise. I do not want them to spy on customers and report that information to governments wishing to steal property.

So Gox - you get a +1 for creating a certification program, but -1 for lumping AML/KYC nonsense into that certification.

In the context of this solely being used to verify that people are who they say they are where exactly does the government part come into this?

 I have no issue with a certification or verification program at all. Im also sure that in a free market mt gox will have competitors in the rating and verification of sites. I hope an impartial entity that also verifies and rates Mt Gox themselves comes about soon.


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