Topic: [ANN] Klondike Indonesia (Big Picture Mining Indonesia) - page 4. (Read 15446 times)

u will not sell outside Indonesia ?

Yah a K16 on a Ras-Pi could do the trick.

To my understanding there is not many data centre's as well and the internet infrastructure is abit lacking at least in terms of speed. Then again I do not rate Australia's internet that crash hot either. (Hurry up with the NBN, the doctor said I need more fibre in my diet)

I would recommend leaving the unit at the school as the problems/issues created can be seen first hand and stimulate ideas that can later benefit a community.

For example it might spark an interest within a student to develop an efficient form of electricity generation because you have then exposed them the power issue needed to create a mining farm but later in life use their creative ideas in rural (kumpung) communities.

Exposing your students to bitcoin is awesome and for an approximately $160 its still very competitive.

Yes that is my own problem right now. These ASIC however run very little power. If you want a K16 that runs about 32W only for about 4.512 Gh/s so that is very good. Although with the difficulty going up 4.512 Gh/s might be better used on an altcoin later on.

If you are looking to build a mining farm you definitely have to look at commercial buildings in Indonesia and even then you have to be concerned with many other points. I personally will try and build a small 4U server unit and see if I can get it put into a data-center south of Jakarta that way power is never a problem, security, ambient temps etc are all taken care of. That to me would be ideal.

I think though most people would be interested in a few K16s or even just to get a few K1's to learn about mining and not worry about the electricity at all.

One of the main problems I would of thought why there are no GPU mining rigs in Indonesia would be the limitation of how much electricity is delivered to a house. I do remember my aunty's house only having a maximum of 4kw.

Well I will be sure to get the reciept pads ordered then... 

Excellent, this could work out really well then. I'll pm you with my email address.

I might even be able to write off a bit of my vacation expenses as a legal business tax deduction then, where I to do this, which would then be even better...

More than welcome to drop in and buy if we have them in stock. Drop me an email and I will keep you posted on our progress. If you have a few hours in Jakarta you can easily reach us in 40 minutes to 1 hour tops depending on traffic from the airport.

Well I was planning a Bali holiday in September.... hmm would be pretty awesome if I could move this up a bit and swing by to pick up a Klondike while I'm in the neighbourhood

Thanks Bicknellski for taking it upon yourself to introduce more Indonesian youth to Bitcoin. 

Heat Sinks Being Tested / Menjadi Diuji:

#1


Length 90.00 mm
Width 90.00 mm
Height 15.00 mm

#2


Length 100.00 mm
Width 100.00 mm
Height 18.00 mm

#3


Length 100.00 mm
Width 110.00 mm
Height 25.00 mm

#4


Length 100.00 mm
Width 97.00 mm
Height 32.00 mm

Latest information from 1 fabricator so far that parts from mouser would require 15% additional fee to get to Singapore then through to them in Jakarta. Also still waiting on cost of the board material itself as that was not factored in. We are currently checking out 2 other companies for PCB fabrication. Also we are still trying to track down suppliers for heat sinks, fans and PSU's. We are also working on configurations that can either be installed right inside your PC or alternatively with stanchions using an external PSU for those who want more than 3 boards.

Server Rack Mount Configuration /  Konfigurasi



Informasi terbaru dari 1 pabrikator sejauh bahwa bagian-bagian dari mouser akan membutuhkan 15% biaya tambahan untuk sampai ke Singapura kemudian melalui mereka di Jakarta. Juga masih menunggu biaya bahan dewan itu sendiri seperti itu bukan karena faktor masuk Kami sedang memeriksa 2 perusahaan lain untuk PCB fabrikasi. Juga kami masih mencoba untuk melacak pemasok untuk heat sink, penggemar dan PSU. Kami juga bekerja pada konfigurasi yang baik dapat diinstal tepat di dalam PC Anda dengan kandang menggunakan PSU eksternal bagi mereka yang ingin lebih dari 3 papan.

No.

Sorry not to be rude but please let me decide what I want to do with my post on this. There are plenty of people who speak English in Indonesia and I will keep this bilingual so that I can link my posts in the Bahasa Indonesia section to have them follow here. It is also posted for others to get a look at what we are doing here in Indonesia so that they can compare.

noted, maybe you should just post in bahasa indonesia... so you won't get inquiries outside of Indonesia if that is what you want that seems the way you want it to be

xe.com/ucc/ <--- We are not selling outside Indonesia. If you feel the need to do quotations in USD for yourself feel free to use XE.

1,548,000.00 IDR   = 158.778 USD

XE Exchange Rate 1 IDR = 0.000102570 USD   1 USD = 9,749.45 IDR Mid-market rates: 2013-05-20 04:57 UTC


Note that in Indonesian notation of Rupiah (IDR) they use commas to separate the hierarchy of numbers into hundreds, thousands and millions and so on. Also note that they use the decimal to denote decimals rounded to tenths typically. So be careful posting your numbers above are inaccurate conversions please revise your post so there is no confusion. If you see anything I have missed out please let me know in terms of the board production costs.

------------------- Bahasa Indonesia -----------------

xe.com /ucc/ <--- Kami tidak menjual di luar Indonesia. Jika Anda merasa perlu untuk melakukan kutipan dalam USD untuk diri Anda merasa bebas untuk menggunakan XE.

1,548,000.00 IDR   = 158.778 USD

XE Exchange Rate 1 IDR = 0.000102570 USD   1 USD = 9,749.45 IDR Mid-market rates: 2013-05-20 04:57 UTC


Perhatikan bahwa dalam notasi Indonesia Rupiah (IDR) mereka menggunakan koma untuk memisahkan hirarki angka menjadi ratusan, ribuan dan jutaan dan seterusnya. Juga mencatat bahwa mereka menggunakan desimal untuk menunjukkan desimal dibulatkan ke persepuluh biasanya. Jadi berhati-hatilah Anda posting nomor di atas adalah konversi akurat silahkan merevisi posting Anda sehingga tidak ada kebingungan. Jika Anda melihat apa yang saya telah melewatkan tolong beritahu saya dalam hal biaya produksi papan.

" Tentative Pricing

We have found one PCB factory in Indonesia that can build our Klondike boards. The price for the board productions is only a first price. We are still looking for better pricing in Indonesia for making Klondikes.

100 Klondike Boards

First time set up costs: 900,000 Rp.
Testing costs: 110,000 Rp.
Total costs for production: 11,800,000 Rp.
Cost per assembled Klondike board: 118,000 Rp.
Cost per SMT part 400 Rp.
16 x Avalon QFN48 chips: Rp. 1.300.000
1 x 120mm Fan: Rp. 50,000
1 x 90x90x18mm Aluminum heat sink Rp. 80.000.

This is only a guess but the cost of production could be:

Production Costs 1 x Klondike with chips: Rp.1.548.000" Quote

Rate per Rupiah 9,755 = 1 usd, production cost is $1,209

and your production costs per Klondike? 1,548.00? or 1,548,000? is $0.158

May you quote in $Usd? Thanks

[Reserved for Updates]

Update  7/07/2013

We are working with Big Picture Mining Cooperative in a large production run possibly starting in July/August. Sales will be local and world wide. As a result this thread and the site will be closed and new thread for the Big Picture Mining Cooperative will be started.

Update  23/06/2013

We have found a fabricator in Batam as well. We will be posting more information about their prices soon.

Update  09/06/2013

Updated prices on the website. Developer chips are shipping.

Update  06/06/2013

Avalon Chip Group buy 500 FRC/chip! 8,985 left

http://www.freicoin.org/post4668.html#p4668

Also in talks with Indonesian based groups to do a group buy 10,000 chips for production of full miners. 780 BTC required.

Update  05/06/2013

BKKCoins Update on K1


Update  30/05/2013

So we can come up with a tentative timeline for Indonesian Klondike production:

BKKCoins receives his samples in late June or early July.
Prototype boards are tested and passed hopefully in July / August.
Orders for more chips made in July.
Gerbers are released and production starts in Indonesia for test boards in August.
25 -100 Board run for Indonesian Market September / October ready.

I may be interested in working in between 15 to 65 more boards in the AUGUST run but only if others ship me the chips and come to Jakarta and pick up the finished boards. Please PM or email me if you are interested in that arrangement but you would need a minimum of 5 boards or 80 Avalon chips.

Update  25/05/2013

We have made some inquiries into the Modular Python Bitcoin Miner and how it can be made ready for the Klondike boards that will be made here in Indonesia. When we are closer to testing a prototype we will get more information but we are very keen on using MPBM for the Klondike as it is a wonderful interface and as I own 3 X6500 fgpa miners that run it, I have found it very stable and easier for novice users which could be the case for Indonesian buyers. There are also plans by BKKCoins to adapt CGminer. We are also willing to support efforts by any other miner software developers.

Update  23/05/2013

The boards will have a 20,000.00 IDR developer royalty added that goes directly to the BKKCoins.

Update  22/05/2013

Website will be ready in:

http://www.bigpicturemining.asia/products.html

Update  21/05/2013

PCB fab house will ship BOM items from Singapore at a 15% Premium directly from Mouser etc.

Cost per assembled Klondike board: 135,700.00 Rp.

Additional PCB board material cost:  Yet to be determined.

Updated pricing per K16 is: 1,565,700.00 IDR


Update  20/05/2013

Only a extremely rough preliminary production estimate for 1 x Klondike 16 with chips with heat sink: 1,548,000.00 IDR

-------------------------------------------------
Pembaruan 2013/07/07

Kami bekerja sama dengan Koperasi Pertambangan Big Picture dalam produksi besar menjalankan kemungkinan mulai bulan Juli / Agustus. Penjualan akan lokal dan di seluruh dunia. Akibatnya thread ini dan situs akan ditutup dan benang baru untuk Koperasi Pertambangan Gambaran Besar akan dimulai.

Pembaruan 2013/23/09

Kami telah menemukan fabricator di Batam juga. Kami akan posting informasi lebih lanjut tentang harga mereka segera.

Pembaruan 2013/06/09

Diperbarui harga website. Chip pengembang adalah pengiriman.

Pembaruan  06/06/2013

Avalon Chip Grup membeli 500 FRC / keping! 8985 kiri

Juga dalam pembicaraan dengan kelompok-kelompok berbasis di Indonesia untuk melakukan kelompok membeli 10.000 chip untuk produksi penambang penuh. 780 BTC diperlukan.

Pembaruan  05/06/2013

BKKCoins memperbarui K1


Pembaruan 30/05/2013

Jadi kita bisa datang dengan waktu tentatif untuk produksi Klondike Indonesia:

BKKCoins menerima sampel nya pada akhir Juni atau awal Juli.
Papan prototipe diuji dan lulus mudah-mudahan pada bulan Juli / Agustus.
Pesanan untuk lebih banyak chip yang dibuat pada bulan Juli.
Gerbers dilepaskan dan produksi dimulai di Indonesia untuk papan tes pada bulan Agustus.
25 -100 Dewan dijalankan untuk Pasar Indonesia September / Oktober siap.

Saya mungkin tertarik bekerja di antara 15-65 papan lebih dalam jangka AGUSTUS tetapi hanya jika orang lain kapal saya keripik dan datang ke Jakarta dan mengambil papan selesai. Silahkan PM atau email saya jika Anda tertarik dalam pengaturan yang tetapi Anda akan membutuhkan minimal 5 papan atau 80 Avalon chip.

Pembaruan 25/05/2013

Kami telah membuat beberapa pertanyaan ke Modular Python Bitcoin Miner dan bagaimana hal itu dapat dibuat siap untuk papan Klondike yang akan dibuat di Indonesia. Ketika kita lebih dekat untuk menguji prototipe kita akan mendapatkan informasi lebih tapi kami sangat tertarik untuk menggunakan MPBM untuk Klondike karena merupakan antarmuka yang indah dan seperti yang saya sudah memiliki 3 X6500 fgpa penambang yang menjalankannya, saya telah menemukan itu sangat stabil dan mudah bagi pengguna pemula yang bisa menjadi kasus untuk pembeli Indonesia. Ada juga rencana untuk beradaptasi dengan BKKCoins CGminer. Kami juga bersedia untuk mendukung upaya oleh pengembang perangkat lunak penambang lainnya.

Pembaruan 23/05/2013

Dewan akan memiliki 20,000.00 IDR royalti pengembang menambahkan bahwa pergi ke BKKCoins.

Pembaruan 22/05/2013

Situs web akan siap dalam:

http://www.bigpicturemining.asia/products.html

Pembaruan 21/05/2013

PCB fab rumah akan kapal bahan BOM dari Singapura pada 15% Premium langsung dari Mouser dll

Biaya per dirakit Klondike papan: 135,700.00 Rp.

Tambahan papan PCB biaya bahan: Namun harus ditentukan.

Updated harga per K16 adalah: 1,565,700.00 IDR

Pembaruan 20/05/2013

Hanya awal perkiraan produksi yang sangat kasar selama 1 x 16 Klondike dengan chip dengan heat sink: 1,548,000.00 IDR

Situation:

Bitcoin is relatively underdeveloped in Indonesia. There are no large mining farm operations and the market in Bitcoin is quite small. There is certainly a void currently in the market for miners that are produced locally. There are several PCB manufacturing operations that are subsidiaries of Japanese, Korean and Chinese PCB companies here in Indonesia. There are also large numbers of PCB designers coming out of the Universities in Indonesia so there are plenty of people to carry out the oversight and future development of Klondike Indonesia boards here. We are also keen on working and developing a strong and lasting relationship with BKKCoins in terms of licensing his design for production here in Indonesia and providing him royalties for each board that is sold.

Focus:

Currently there are no ASIC, FPGA mining rigs available in Indonesia other than DIY GPU's and a handful of purchased FPGAs. The Indonesian market for Bitcoin miners is limited although there are 1000's of people interested in Bitcoin and active in the community at various levels and this is growing every month. Import tariffs and delays for electronics is a prohibitive barrier for mining Bitcoin in Indonesia.

Response

Klondike Indonesia will fill the void by providing Indonesians with completed Klondike 1, 16, 64 and eventually K256 4U units with hot swap capable K16 / K64 boards. We have assessed the market and understand that there will at first be a limited market for miners. We will  provide locally made working miners so as to avoid importation tariffs and time delays that is the norm with Indonesian customs. Avalon chips will be ordered and delivered directly to our contracted PCB fabrication house. We will also be working with students at the Canadian Montessori School so they can learn about Cryptocurrencies and the students will be working on building a K16 that will be maintained as a student project at the school in the 2013/14 school year and beyond. Students will also learn about the production of Klondike boards and their ultimate sale here in Indonesia.

Evaluation

We will help create a new community of miners in Indonesia and we hope that will also help to diversify and secure the Bitcoin / Altcoin networks. We also see this as an excellent opportunity to support the local economy in Indonesia as well as providing educational opportunities for the students at Canadian Montessori Schools. To support the Bitcoin community we will not accept pre-orders and will produce units first, test that they function mining for 24 hours on the network and then box them up for sale so that customers can pay and take a unit. We do not offer shipping and customers can pay in Rupiah, Bitcoin or Freicoin.

Tentative Pricing

We have found one PCB factory in Indonesia that can build our Klondike boards. The price for the board productions is only a first price. We are still looking for better pricing in Indonesia for making Klondikes.

Cost for a 100 Klondike Board Run

First time set up costs: 900,000.00 IDR
Testing costs: 110,000.00 IDR
Total costs for production: 11,800,000.00 IDR 13,570,000.00 Rp.
Cost per assembled Klondike board: 118,000.00 IDR 135,700.00 Rp.
Cost per SMT part: 400.00 IDR  500.00 IDR
16 x Avalon QFN48 chips: 1,300,000.00 IDR
1 x 120 mm Fan: 50,000.00 IDR
1 x 90*90*18 mm Aluminum heat sink: 80,000.00 IDR
Board materials costs: Unknown
Developer Royalty: 20,000.00 IDR per board
Modular Python Bitcoin Miner Royalty: Burn in will be done via MPBM and pay the royalty fee.

This is only a guess but the cost of production could be:

Production Costs 1 x K16 with chips: 1,548,000.00 IDR 1,565,700.00 IDR  1,585,700.00 IDR

We are still not sure on shipping costs and other costs that might happen as we produce this product as well as our own additional costs to make a reasonable profit for developing the Klondike board here in Indonesia. We hope to price the product lower that what it would cost for importing similar boards and having something in stock as soon as we can that will be get these miners in Indonesian hands. We are still looking at September for these units to be available.

Retail Cost:

Klondike 1   -  "K1 Nano"

282 MH/s @ 2W
1 Avalon ASIC chip
BTC 0.50
FRC 3000
IDR 500,000
Available October 2013 only for in store purchases while in stock.
24 hour burn in testing

Klondike 16 - "K16"

4.512 GH/s  @ 32W
16 Avalon ASIC chips
BTC 5
FRC 40,000
IDR 4,000,000
Available October 2013 only for in store purchases while in stock.
24 hour burn in testing

* Doesn't include heat sink, power supply, stanchions or casing.

Klondike 64 - "K64"

18.048 GH/s @ 128W
64 Avalon ASIC chips
BTC 20
FRC 160,000
IDR 16,000,000
Built to order available in October / November 2013
24 hour burn in testing

* Customers need to buy and provide the Avalon chips for these units. These units do not come with heat sinks attached, power supply and stanchions. 50% up front 50% on delivery via escrow. Delivery, tariffs and insurance fees are not included. We also offer boards sans chips. Email for more details.

Klondike 256 - "K256 Gold Pan"

72.096 GH/s  @ 512W
256 Avalon ASIC chips
Rack Mounted 1U Server Chassis with 700 W PSU
BTC 99
FRC 700,000
IDR 70,000,000
Built to order available in October / November 2013
24 hour burn in testing


* Customers need to buy and provide the Avalon chips for these units. These units come with heat sinks attached, power supply and 1U rack mount casing. 50% up front 50% on delivery via escrow. There will be hosting of miners in local Tier 2 or Tier 3 data center. We also offer boards sans chips. Email for more details.

---------------------------- INDONESIAN --------------------------------

Situasi:

Bitcoin relatif terbelakang di Indonesia. Tidak ada operasi pertanian pertambangan besar dan pasar di Bitcoin cukup kecil. Tentu saja ada kekosongan saat ini di pasar untuk penambang yang diproduksi secara lokal. Ada beberapa operasi manufaktur PCB yang merupakan anak Jepang, Korea dan Cina PCB perusahaan di Indonesia. Ada juga sejumlah besar desainer PCB keluar dari Perguruan Tinggi di Indonesia sehingga ada banyak orang untuk melaksanakan pengawasan dan masa depan pengembangan Klondike papan sini. Kami juga tertarik pada bekerja dan mengembangkan hubungan yang kuat dan langgeng dengan BKKCoins dalam hal lisensi desain untuk produksi di Indonesia dan memberinya royalti untuk setiap papan yang dijual.

Fokus:

Saat ini tidak ada ASIC, FPGA rig pertambangan yang tersedia di Indonesia selain DIY GPU dan beberapa FPGA dibeli. Pasar Indonesia untuk Bitcoin penambang terbatas meskipun ada 1000 orang yang tertarik dalam Bitcoin dan aktif dalam masyarakat di berbagai tingkatan dan ini terus bertambah setiap bulan. Tarif impor dan penundaan untuk elektronik adalah penghalang penghalang untuk pertambangan Bitcoin di Indonesia.

Response

Klondike Indonesia akan mengisi kekosongan dengan menyediakan Indonesia dengan selesai Klondike 1, 16, 64 dan akhirnya K256 4U unit dengan hot swap mampu K16 / K64 papan. Kami telah melakukan penilaian pasar dan memahami bahwa akan ada pada awalnya menjadi pasar terbatas bagi penambang. Kami akan menyediakan buatan lokal penambang bekerja sehingga untuk menghindari impor tarif dan penundaan waktu itu adalah norma di pabean Indonesia. Chip Avalon akan dipesan dan dikirimkan langsung ke kami dikontrak PCB fabrikasi rumah. Kami juga akan bekerja sama dengan mahasiswa di Kanada Montessori School untuk belajar tentang Cryptocurrencies dan siswa akan bekerja pada membangun K16 yang akan dipertahankan sebagai proyek mahasiswa di sekolah. Siswa juga akan belajar tentang produksi Klondike papan dan penjualan akhir mereka di Indonesia.

Evaluasi

Kami akan membantu menciptakan komunitas baru para penambang di Indonesia dan kami berharap bahwa juga akan membantu untuk diversifikasi yang aman jaringan Bitcoin / Altcoin. Kami juga melihat ini kesempatan yang baik untuk mendukung ekonomi lokal di Indonesia serta memberikan kesempatan pendidikan bagi para siswa di Kanada Sekolah Montessori. Untuk mendukung komunitas Bitcoin kami tidak akan menerima pre-order dan akan menghasilkan unit pertama, uji bahwa mereka berfungsi pertambangan selama 24 jam pada jaringan dan kemudian kotak mereka untuk dijual sehingga pelanggan dapat membayar dan mengambil unit. Kami tidak menawarkan pengiriman dan pelanggan dapat membayar dalam Rupiah, Bitcoin atau Freicoin.

Tentatif Harga

Kami telah menemukan satu pabrik PCB di Indonesia yang dapat membangun papan Klondike kami. Harga untuk produksi papan hanya harga pertama. Kami masih mencari harga yang lebih baik di Indonesia untuk membuat Klondikes.

Biaya untuk 100 Klondike Dewan 'Run'

Pertama kali mengatur biaya: 900,000.00 IDR
Biaya pengujian: 110,000.00 IDR
Jumlah biaya untuk produksi: 11,800,000.00 IDR 13,570,000.00 Rp.
Biaya per dirakit Klondike papan: 118,000.00 IDR 135,700.00 Rp.
Biaya per TPS bagian: 400.00 IDR  500.00 IDR
16 x Avalon QFN48 chip: 1,300,000.00 IDR
1 x 120 mm Fan: 50,000.00 IDR
1 x 90*90*18 mm Aluminium heat sink 80,000.00 IDR
Dewan bahan biaya: Tidak diketahui
Royalti Pengembang: 20,000.00 IDR per papan
Modular Python Bitcoin Miner Royalti: Membakar in akan dilakukan melalui MPBM dan membayar biaya royalti.

Ini hanya menebak tetapi biaya produksi bisa:

Biaya Produksi 1 x K16 dengan chip: 1,548,000.00 IDR 1,565,700.00 IDR  1,585,700.00 IDR

Kami masih tidak yakin pada biaya pengiriman dan biaya lain yang mungkin terjadi seperti kami memproduksi produk ini serta tambahan biaya kita sendiri untuk membuat keuntungan yang wajar untuk mengembangkan papan Klondike di Indonesia. Kami berharap untuk harga produk yang lebih rendah bahwa apa yang akan biaya untuk mengimpor papan yang sama dan memiliki sesuatu dalam stok secepat kami bisa yang akan mendapatkan penambang ini di tangan Indonesia. Kami masih mencari di September untuk unit-unit ini akan tersedia.

Biaya Retail:

Klondike 1 - "K1 Nano"

282 MH / s @ 2W
1 Avalon ASIC chip
BTC 0.50
FRC 3000
Rp 500.000
Tersedia Oktober 2013 hanya dalam pembelian toko sementara di saham.
24 jam burn dalam pengujian

Klondike 16 - "K16"

4,512 GH / s @ 32W
16 Avalon chip ASIC
BTC 5
FRC 40.000
Rp 4.000.000
Tersedia Oktober 2013 hanya dalam pembelian toko sementara di saham.
24 jam burn dalam pengujian

* Tidak termasuk heat sink, power supply, kandang atau casing.

Klondike 64 - "K64"

18,048 GH / s @ 128W
64 Avalon chip ASIC
BTC 20
FRC 160.000
Rp 16.000.000
Dibangun untuk memesan tersedia pada bulan Oktober / November 2013
24 jam burn dalam pengujian

* Pelanggan harus membeli dan menyediakan chip Avalon untuk unit ini. Unit-unit ini tidak datang dengan heat sink terpasang, power supply dan kandang. 50% di depan 50% pada pengiriman melalui escrow. Pengiriman, tarif dan biaya asuransi yang tidak termasuk. Kami juga menawarkan papan sans chip. Email untuk lebih jelasnya.

Klondike 256 - "K256 Gold Pan"

72,096 GH / s @ 512W
256 Avalon chip ASIC
Rack Mounted 1U Server Chassis dengan 700 W PSU
BTC 99
FRC 700.000
Rp 70.000.000
Dibangun untuk memesan tersedia pada bulan Oktober / November 2013
24 jam burn dalam pengujian


* Pelanggan harus membeli dan menyediakan chip Avalon untuk unit ini. Unit ini datang dengan heat sink terpasang, power supply dan casing 1U rack mount. 50% di depan 50% pada pengiriman melalui escrow. Ada akan menjadi tuan penambang di 2 Tier lokal atau data center Tier 3. Kami juga menawarkan papan sans chip. Email untuk lebih jelasnya.