Topic: [ANN] Moneypot (Discontinued) (Read 856 times)

Hi all. As some of you might have noticed moneypot is discontinued due to a lack of interest.

If you are interested in a service which offers a similar product you can check out blindmixer.

As always: use at your own discretion.

You have a copper membership and Moneypot looks a wonderful Mixer service, why dont you put images to make your ANN design appealing?

Hello everyone! Due to a number of unforeseen reasons our mainnet custodian has been offline for the last couple of months shortly after the initial launch, as have we. No user has been negatively affected by this.

We plan on coming back in the very near future in a more planned out fashion than we've done hitherto.
In the meantime we are testing out the custodian and wallet software on testnet. You can get a feel for the wallet and give us feedback if you'd like to do so.

Our project development thread can be found here.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/feedback-moneypot-wallet-chaumian-bank-provable-nologs-lightning-5349725

We would love to hear your opinions! Anything at all, granted that you are sincere.

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Please note:

We currently do not offer any monetary reward for reporting bugs that cause severe security issues such as exploits that cause loss of funds for the custodian operators, as was previously mentioned in the OP, however we would still love for you to report them to us.

No, for some reason tor did not properly restart. This is a mistake on our end and I simply didn't notice it until now.
It should work now.

I think it should work fine with Brave + privacy mode. To be quite frank -- I don't think we know exactly why it does not work using the tor browser, just that it is probably related to the limited access to certain instances. I should investigate this further.

Please note that tor has significantly longer syncing times due to the higher latency. That might become an annoyance if you use our wallet together with something such as "Privacy Mode", as you'll have to constantly restore your wallet, as i previously pointed out above.

I added Moneypot.com to the list as you posted a few hours ago.

Questions:

Is it me or?

I'm unable to open the link with Tor (used in privacy mode with Brave)


"ERR_SOCKS_CONNECTION_FAILED"

edit:

I believe the reason is the same as the one given above?

Hi, thanks for asking!

Does the Money pot wallet supports Tor?

I can not load the wallet page with Tor: https://wallet.moneypot.com/
I see the message "Are you sure you're using Tor?" when I load the page without Tor.

Well, if this software has already solved the complexity then the complexity would be a non-issue.

The main support issue would be that customers would lose their keys to their wallets and then contact support to try to recover them.

In theory, it looks quite doable. The only two things you can do with your blinded coins:

A) Make a bitcoin transaction ( https://github.com/moneypot/moneypot-lib/blob/master/src/hookout.ts )
B) Make a lightning transaction ( https://github.com/moneypot/moneypot-lib/blob/master/src/lightning-payment.ts )

which then you give to a custodian, who processes it. So it would be pretty easy to make a "soft fork" style custodian, that simply added additional restrictions (e.g. only pay lightning invoices that were to do with an internal payment). Or you could go all-out and make a special transaction type, and modify the wallet, etc.

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But on a pragmatic note, I don't think it would make much sense. The complexity involved is *insane*. And trying to do any customer-support would be a lolsfest, (compared to now, just doing some db lookups).


The only case I can think it could maybe make sense, would be as a "legal hack". Like I'm imagining that if you were in a regulated industry who is required record keeping (and KYC?) you could technically comply with those laws, while also being able to offer a huge amount of privacy.  But you're always running up against a stupid amount of complexity. So you really need an application where privacy is genuinely extremely important and its a real selling point

Do you think it might be possible to run an intentionally and explicitly hobbled instance of this that can't send funds outside the system for acting as a "gift card wallet"?

It can be pretty useful for a merchant to allow users to keep a balance and even transfer balance between customers... but in some jurisdictions having funds leave the system creates additional regulatory issues... and isn't really needed for the purpose.

I've looked into setting up a chaum token system for this application before.  Pay bitcoin in, get tokens that can be moved among users, or eventually turned into purchases of goods/services.  One reason to use chaum tokens for this application is so that the merchant doesn't unnecessarily learn the exact linkage between the customer's Bitcoin transaction history and their name and physical address (needed for shipping goods) in order to reduce the risks from hacks/thefts.

It would be nice if some existing software could be deployed off-label for this application.

Great seeing this finally released, I know it's been years in the making. I took it through a spin, and it's a bit rough (like states not automatically updating or showing that they're updating), but it works as advertised and is quite a big break through imo

Well, decentralized != non-custodial. It would just mean that we would (probably) use something like multisig for our deposit addresses and signing, and find a couple trusted forum users to hold some of the keys.


This a good question, and allows us to dive deeper into the philosophy with which we crafted moneypot.
So with any regular centralized exchange or mixer, you, the client, almost always assume that they are your "friend", whether that be in the promise of not keeping of logs, or sending transactions of the right amount to the right address.

We at moneypot have taken a different approach. We assume that anything that the custodial server CAN exploit, will exploit, and so we've attempted to protect the client from that.

And so to provably preserve your privacy we've implemented blind signatures, as mentioned above. However, the custodian cannot reasonably claim that it does not log your IP, because it is able to do so.
We don't actually log your ip!

So, to be completely "protected" from the custodian server with regards to your privacy, you will also need to mask your IP, and we cannot do this for you. Thus the warning.

Note: It doesn't really need to be through tor, you just need to make sure that the request for a hookin (deposit) is made with a different IP than the request for a transfer (withdrawal).

In conclusion, what happens if you don't use TOR? well, nothing. You just trust us and the hops between us to not log your IP and to not tie that to your requests.

It is good to know that you still want your wallet to be decentralized.  Because that is preferable to use by users with sole control over coins.  What is the use of blind signatures?  Does it have to do with verification?  When you open the page, there is a question that comes up "Are you sure you're using TOR"?  Your highest priority is privacy.  What if a user does not use TOR?

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Update: I have not heard back from this user, so I assume this issue has resolved itself. If not, or if you think certain parts could be improved  (that which supposedly caused your issues), let us know.

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Sorry, I glanced over your post.

See the answer above.

We don't. We'd rather seen that moneypot was decentralized as well. This is definitely something we would love to do in some distant future.

However, certain features of the wallet wouldn't make much sense in a non-custodial setting.

If we had no control over your funds, implementing a blind signature scheme wouldn't make much sense. In terms of lightning and fees, there would be no way to really differentiate from already existing and established wallets.

From a user POV, moneypot works just like your regular bitcoin wallet.

You deposit bitcoin by sending it to an address only we have the keys to. Once the BTC are confirmed, you will be able to claim your "coins" (this all happens automatically).

Note: for those interested, A "coin" is nothing more than a public key that has an (unblinded) receipt (signature from the custodian) for a certain magnitude (which has an associated signing key).

For the client, this is no different than what you would normally do. You don't really notice the entire scheme, at least, that's the idea.
You can choose to pay to an address, or a lightning invoice. Upon initiating a transfer, the wallet sends the coins (up to the amount requested) to the custodian. The custodian checks the validity, and whether or not they have been spent before, and if you actually authorized the transfer of these coins.

If that all checks out, it will attempt to fullfill the requested transfer, or offer you a refund. If you had sent more coins than required, e.g you sent two coins with magnitudes 3 and 4 (2^3 and 2^4), while the transfer was meant for 20 satoshis, you will also be allowed to claim the remainder (2^3 + 2^4 - 20 = a claim to a coin of 2^2)
(A refund really is nothing more than a claim to new coins.)

That's basically it. All this is done provably-honest, meaning that you provide signatures to the custodian signing your transfers with the inputs (coins) you're using, so that you cannot claim that the custodian sent out a transfer of the wrong amount, or to the wrong address. Because only you have access to the private key belonging to the coins, and thus only you can create a valid signature. Both parties can independently verify this after and during the transaction.

Hey, this doesn't sound quite right. Moneypot is supposed to be 100% automatic both in receiving deposits and making transfers.

Could you try to
A. sync your wallet

and if that does not work B. PM me your txid, so we can work from there.

I'm a little confused though: Did you attempt to deposit funds, and have they not been credited yet; or, did you attempt to withdraw, and has the withdrawal not been sent yet?

"The bonus transaction" was done through a fake lightning invoice.

What priority did you use?

I tried to send my bitcoins to the exchange wallet address, yeah and of course waiting more than 12 hours, is the sending process done manually? I prefer everything is done automatically, this is with a transaction speed problem, a little strange too when I saw my wallet address to receive bitcoins I did not find any transactions in the address including the bonus transaction that was previously sent

I just saw this new wallet you are developing in the service section that you paid to ten participants who were able to generate a lightning invoice.  So I visited here to get more information about the services you offer.  I read that it seems like a lot of people don't like it because you chose to use a domain with a bad history.  Are you aware of that before you purchase or reuse this domain?  Why do you prefer to make a custodial than a non-custodial wallet?

Sorry for my questions, I don't know much because I have not tried to use a wallet or transaction that has a lightning feature so I would also like to try and have ideas on how to use it and how it works.

I believe the idea is pretty standard though. It's almost synonymous to how non-hardened keys are normally derived.

I guess this non-standardness will actually be a bit of an annoyance to technical users, but the real beauty is indeed the solution rhavar came up with, that is to derive a private key out of a public key
like

And to then derive the deposit address from that, as we described above.


Indeed, if our "wallet" custodian shuts down, you will no longer be able to access your bitcoin. However, I think you have the wrong understanding of moneypot. You shouldn't use our wallet as a wallet to hoard your coins in until the end of days.

Instead, you should us as an intermediary between your primary wallet, and the goods and services you want to acquire.

Let's assume you make 5 transactions a week currently from your primary wallet to something like bitrefill, or another payment service.

Now, instead of those 5 transactions, you can also make a single transaction to moneypot, and then use our lightning services to pay for your goods on bitrefill. Much cheaper!
Of course - not every service accepts lightning, but in that case you will still be able to make use of our batched / immediate transactions.

Again, all while enjoying a revolutionary amount of privacy.


While I agree with your initial statements, (you should aways use any service with caution!), I don't see how we can distance ourselves any further from the previous owners of this domain than we've already done. What are other issues you're having that cause you to view us negatively?

Quick sidenote: while you do not hold the keys to your bitcoin, you do solely hold the keys to a claim equivalent to the bitcoin you deposited.

You can't because in the OP, it’s mentioned that moneypot wallet is a custodial one. Not your keys. You should use the site  with caution, as stated above there are a lot of negativity going on. Just a friendly suggestion.

it's complicated. If your wallet shut down and never online anymore. how to recover bitcoin into another wallet?. I just want to know where to see the private key address.

It is interesting idea you are using with two private keys and creating child key, but maybe you need to think of creating some hacking competition or bounty reward for people who want to try and abuse your wallet and find some bugs or maybe you should complete audit for wallet code.

thanks for your question, because this allows us to point out some of the beauty of moneypot.

So, with a regular wallet that uses BIP39, you take your mnemonic, convert it into a seed using PBKDF2, so far so good, this is what moneypot does client-side as well.

Now, moneypot does something similar to BIP32, but not exactly.

Most wallets using BIP32 would derive a master key from the seed using PBKDF2 and a salt. Then, from that master private key, they generate (mostly?!) hardened private keys while using a path like m/0/0'..


Now, what moneypot does, is that it takes your seed, and generates a private key out of it through a hash function, I assume it's mostly kind of similar to a standard BIP32 wallet up to this point. Derive the resulting public key, and you have your "xpub", or claimantGenerator.


Because moneypot is a custodial wallet, the client can't just tweak the private key by an index to then derive the adress.

What we actually do is the following (although the next step is not really related to it being a custodial wallet) : We take the private key derived from the seed, and add another private key to it. The final result serves as our "child key". The added private key is the hash of an index parameter + the previously derived private key from our seed (see above), converted to a public key. I assume this is pretty standard too for most wallets.

This function is described here.

This derivation function is equivalent to as can be seen here.
Deriving by the claimantGenerator allows you to generate addresses without access to the seed/private key, which could be useful in certain situations!

Note: This does mean that if one of your child keys + your xpub leak out, an attacker could probably access *what would be equivalent to* your "xpriv", just like all unhardened keys. However, this would only be a problem for new hookins which are accepted but not yet claimed, as the coins resulting from claims from hookins are not derived from the same private key, but rather from the wallet seed.



How do we actually do this? In the case of a public key for a deposit address, we take the private key from the seed, and we first derive it by it's purpose. In this case, it's a deposit address, so "bitcoinAddress".
After that, we take the resulting private key, and derive it again. This time we derive by the index. Let's say it's our first key, so we derive by 0.

And you get

You can check it out here
We end up with a private key that's actually a key for a yet to exist  "bitcoinAddress 0". Let's call the public key resulting from this private key "claimant bitcoinAddress 0"

However, we do not want to derive an address from this key and subsequently send this key to the custodian, because then we would not be able to prove that we initiated or signed certain actions pertaining to this address. Such as claiming coins!

So what do we do? We hash the resulting public key again, and convert the hash into a private key. From that private key, we derive the public key, and then add the public key to the custodian's fundingKey.
From the resulting public key, we derive either a nested segwit address, or native.

The database function is described here and the function to add the public keys together is described here. Although, they're not really that interesting because it still hides the abstracts away.

Now, whenever we deposit funds on bitcoinAddress 0, we send a hookin to the custodian using "claimant bitcoinAddress 0". The custodian derives the private key from "claimant bitcoinAddress 0" and can subsequently claim the bitcoins deposited on the address. Now, because the custodian does not know the private key to the claimant, only you, the client, can initiate a claim! thus making it provably-fair, as the custodian will be unable to provide a valid signature for the claimant, and thus cannot falsely claim that your coins have already been claimed.

Of course, you could also send us your claimant and ask us for a deposit address, but that solution would not be as elegant, would it? (This is exactly what we do for lightning invoices though!)

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So, no. You cannot use any standardized third-party tool to derive your deposit addresses, for moneypot is far too "un-standard". However, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with an api to generate keys following the same derivation as the wallet does.

Let us know if anything was vague, or if it was too technical.

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No, you're not missing much. I'd say that that is about right. Sure, there are a lot of things that can go wrong, but we believe that this could also blossom into something cool, otherwise we wouldn't have started it.
I'm not dismissing your concerns, I think they are understandable, obviously we do hope you change your mind sooner or later.

Did you mean this RHavar- https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/rhavar-389331
If I got you correctly, the domain was in control of RHavar, he sold to someone who was a scammer. Later RHavar somehow purchased the domain again and sold to you. Interesting. You didn’t know the history of the website?
Anyway, you have somehow started with a controversial domain. You have to struggle a lot if you want to stay on the market.

OK, I'm obviously missing something here.
Custodial wallet with full access to user funds
A domain with a dubious past
Newbie account on the forum

What could possibly go wrong?

I tried your wallet and got one address only, native segwit by default, to change into nested we should go to settings,

Is moneypot using BIP39 mnemonic seed? because I don't see my address when putting it in the bip39 tool, If using BIP39 seed what derivation path of address?

Thanks for answering and providing explanation, and I am not frustrated but I just posted my feedback after visiting your website and testing the wallet, so you can maybe improve some things.

As I saw in my previous posts. You start with a negative marked brand name which will make it very difficult for you to reach a good position in the market. For example, a few comments here is about some old scam moments related to your business name and we should talk about your service and how to improve it perhaps.
Month ago, maybe more, one team running giveaway content for best name suggestion for his new created altcoin. they got a lot of good and creative ideas and this is a good start even if it's just about coin name.
The good marketing program is always appreciated if you want to make your service more recognised but of course, you must have a competitive and solid quality product.

all this does not mean that I am 100% right, certainly, the decision is up to you.

Hi, yes, that was the project previously hosted on this domain. While we are not completely aware of the exact depths of their scummy behaviour, we do recognize they probably were up to no good, and have undoubtedly scammed people.

It's a complicated story as to how we got this domain, and we do not actually know entirely how it ended up in our hands.
So, in short, It originally belonged to rhavar, which used it for a gambling bankroll service slash wallet. He ended up selling that project to the abovementioned - what turned out to be - scammers.

At some point, he (or a group representing him) has bought back the domain from Monsterbyte.io (which merged with the buyers of "moneypot.com"), and we currently "lease" it from him. Note: rhavar is in no other way currently directly involved with moneypot.

So while we accept that you might want to give us this negative connotation due to the domain name, we do not believe it is right, and hope you'll view us differently over time.

I do not necessarily see how the three are correlated with each other, but there are numerous arguments why a service such as moneypot would be useful. For one, it pushes other services and bitcoin to innovate. While we recognize that extreme trust is required to use a custodial wallet, and currently, maybe ever, we are not deserving of that trust. So you're just going to have to make a decision based on the risks vs the rewards.

The risks:
 - We could scam everyone and run with the deposited funds. please note: It is impossible for us to unprovably scam any individual user, at least; that's the idea.
 - You might lose funds due to poorly implemented code.

The benefits:
 - Make transactions with enormous privacy. (every input is blinded using an established blind schnorr signature scheme.)
 - Use lightning efficiently and with privacy.
 - Make use of our cheap on-chain transactions.

You're right. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement. In your opinion, apart from using a different domain name; how could we improve how you view us?

Yes, We understand your frustration, however if you want to enjoy complete privacy, tor is more or less required. You can download the standalone tor client for windows, or install the package on linux, and then simply route all your browser traffic through
Tor is not synonymous to the Tor Browser, but this should perhaps be a bit more clear, I agree.

A VPN with a rotating IP would also suffice in most cases.

Like I said in your other topic, I don't understand why you are asking people to use TOR but website and wallet is not working with Tor browser.
It is better to remove this popup or fix the problem, and I didn't even know there is software version until I visited main website and saw that in releases.

Yeah, acts amateurish. This also: "so please come back in a week or two!"
I did not delve deeper into the analysis, but to me, all this does not inspire confidence. maybe they really have good intentions, but I think the chances of using this wallet are very low.

According to their website, they said they have purchased the domain from monsterbyte.io, what the f is this? I have no idea though. And it seems fishy to me, why would anyone with such a domain to start a custodial wallet service, at the BTC peak?

the first thing I thought too, whether these are the same fraudsters come back again or it's just a mistake. if there really is a new team behind this domain, I have to admit it was a very bad decision to use moneypot name in new business.
In essence, they start from negative, it will probably take a lot of energy and time to build a positive reputation. much more than starting with a brand new and unknown name and domain. Especially if we are still talking about the very sensitive matter as it is Bitcoin wallet.

Great to see that your wallet have a few good features including LN payments. I would be more than happy to use that, unlucky that I couldn’t test it free. Welcome, anyway.
What's the agenda you are talking with the moneypot domain? Was it used to scam previously? If so, how did you get the domain and why such a domain?
Is this- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scam-scammoneypotscam-scam-officially-announced-not-to-buy-rbies-as-promised-2207833

We know, you're probably wondering; "What?! Moneypot?! Again?!"

Rest assured, we are not in any way related to the previous owners of Moneypot.com, for we have only the domain name in common.

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Preface: Moneypot is currently in beta so we want to re-emphasize to not deposit more funds than you are willing to lose.

moneypot is a completely functional bitcoin wallet. It has all the quirks one could reasonally expect from a web wallet: feebumping, custom fees, segwit.

However, it introduces a number of new, unique features, which we think you're going to like;
 

• moneypot utilizes so-called "blind signatures", which allows the user to transact with the utmost privacy. Your inputs and outputs are cryptographically unlinked within our ecosystem.

• moneypot utilizes in-house coin selection algorithms, allowing us to not only batch transactions at scale, but we are also able to make the smartest choices when selecting inputs.

• moneypot brings lightning to the average Joe. No longer will you be required to set up your own node, or use a separate wallet for your lightning transactions. moneypot allows you to pay and generate invoices from the comfort of the same wallet you do your daily transactions with.

• moneypot is provably-honest. We will be unable to get away with duping any single person.

• moneypot offers their service at cost. Apart from very limited anti-dusting fees, all of moneypots services are ran at cost. There are no hidden fees.

• moneypot allows instant and free transfers between users.

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What are the drawbacks?!

• moneypot is a custodial wallet. Through malice, error, or other causes, your funds* could potentially disappear at any given time, without you being at fault. Your funds as in the collective of all of the users of a custodian(s)
  

• moneypot is coded by -humans-, sentient beings, and so there might be unspotted glitches in the wallet software that could lead to a loss of funds.

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In what scenario would I use this wallet?

We think moneypot is to be fully appreciated when used as your day-to-day wallet. Used correctly, a transaction costs as little as a regular input. And that's not even mentioning the ease with which you can use our lightning services to pay for any service or everyday goods, all while retaining full privacy.

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FAQ:
 Why should I trust you with my bitcoins?
   - You should not. Everyone needs to assess the risk they're willing to take with their coins, and we hope we offer enough to make it worth it for you to take that risk. There is no compelling argument we can make as to why we are worthy of safe-guarding your coins, because really, we aren't.

For more frequently asked questions, you can visit our FAQ

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How exactly does moneypot work?

In layman terms: moneypot takes the bitcoin you deposited, and returns to you a claim to a set of coins equal to the deposited amount. Only you have the keys to those coins, and you use them each time you want to make a transaction. Due to how moneypot works, we do not know your coins, nor the keys. We only know whether or not they are valid, and whether you are the actual owner of them.

For more detailed information, please check out: Overview

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How to use

Step 1. Visit wallet.moneypot.com

Step 2. Choose a custodian (use the affiliated ones for now. See below)

Step 2.1 Choose both a password and a name. Save your password and mnemonic phrase!

Step 3. Deposit bitcoin through either lightning or a normal transaction.

Step 4. Start blazing!

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Electron
Moneypot also offers an electron shell, should users be interested in using that. We think it could be of benefit to both your privacy and security.

For more information, please visit Releases

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Source code

For those interested in the source code, our github repositories are publicly accessible. You are welcome to contribute, run your own custodian, or point out bugs.

For those who spot critical security vulnerabilities; please PM us here on bitcointalk or send an email to our support.

moneypot-wallet
moneypot-lib
moneypot-wallet-electron
moneypot-custodian

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We support both TOR and clearnet for our affiliated custodians.

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Our PGP key used to sign releases

38876AFC1172E3DFA17A84BB2E5F4A83BFE81B1B

You can import this using


Latest wallet release

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