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Topic: [FEEDBACK] Moneypot | Wallet | "Chaumian Bank" | Provable Nologs | Lightning ϟ | (Read 335 times)

legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1014
All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Old Moneypot user here, and actually even used it when they were bought over by MonsterByte (IIRC).
Hi, thanks for your comment! Just want to quickly reiterate that we are not the old moneypot entity, nor do we offer the same kind of product.


how can we be sure that you are not the old moneypot owner = scammer?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1125
I have not tried your wallet for obvious reasons so yeah
Would you care to eleborate your "obvious reasons"? Quite curious.

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Why should I trust you with my bitcoins?
   - You should not.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5302025/

First of all I am not going to use or test a custodial wallet and I don't think that it should be supported but anyone can decide themselves if they wanna risk their savings. Second, missing links and buggy websites don't build trust either Smiley
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
I have not tried your wallet for obvious reasons so yeah
Would you care to eleborate your "obvious reasons"? Quite curious.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1125
I have not tried your wallet for obvious reasons so yeah, missing links and unprofessionalism are the only things I can comment on, sorry x)
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
{...}

What a shame that the only thing seemingly worthy of discussion is whether or not we have a prefabricated, copy-pasted TOS / Privacy-policy, while the actual product is completely ignored...

You are handling money and still couldn't get a privacy policy etc. online.. this is highly unprofessional.
Currently there is only a live testnet environment. And yes, we do agree that it is unprofessional to have any sorts of links that 404, but is this really the most pressing issue you encountered while using our service? Have you even tried the wallet?
Seems like we're just discussing semantics here while there are so many other and more interesting topics to discuss relating to our service, though of course, we are happy to resolve this issue.


Criticisms are always duly noted. For now instead of removing the links we've added a placeholder privacy-policy, cookie-policy, and TOS, at least for the time being.

Old Moneypot user here, and actually even used it when they were bought over by MonsterByte (IIRC).
Hi, thanks for your comment! Just want to quickly reiterate that we are not the old moneypot entity, nor do we offer the same kind of product.

the current moneypot wallet is a centralized wallet designed for the individual bitcoin user of which the predominant characteristic is the usage of blind schnorr signatures, while the old product was more centered around bankrolling? casinos.

Of course, the "current" moneypot wallet also allows users to send instant internal transfers to other users of the same custodian.

It's purpose is best described as a hot-wallet of which the intent is that you use it for day-to-day purchases where you would like to have a decent amount of privacy, and where all your deposited funds should be immediately voided in the back of your mind, as you do not control the keys to your exact inputs any longer. (Only an undisputable cryptographic claim to those inputs) that is to say: do not use moneypot for long-term storage of funds or for storage of a large amount of funds. We are completely open about this, and so to immediately discard us under the "Not your keys not your bitcoin" argument really is too short-sighted in our opinion.

They did have one pretty good use case back then (a free/instant transfer in between all dapps connected to the network). Wonder if you might look into doing that as well, encourage sites/services to use your wallet and all users can transfer between apps. Might even help with privacy, though I do see Lightning could absorb a lot of that advantage.

There was a little bit of discussion about something similar to this in the other thread, but this would require the service provider to place a lot of trust in us, as opposed to current processing services such as for example the bitpay servers, which are not custodial.

So there would be two options for what you're suggesting?:
1. Service providers can fully trust us (trust, but verify) and derive customer deposit addresses directly from our fundingkey / generate invoices just like regular users of our wallet would, and internally accredit users accordingly.
the users of these services can then request to pay to addresses/invoices to the service providers, and they in turn request the moneypot custodian to make that payment. If the lightning invoice is internal (another service provider or user also utilizing the same moneypot custodian), an internal (free) transfer can be made.

Now two, three problems here: Users need to trust their service provider, and the service provider needs to trust moneypot, whereby the only real benefit to this entire construction is somewhat lower costs in some cases, and no real privacy improvement for end-users. Of course, the third problem being that a correct implementation of this will definitely take a good amount of effort.
So is it worth it? Definitely?probably not. Alternatively instead of the service provider internally accrediting its users it could instead allow them to do this themselves to improve privacy in a meaningful way, but then what was the point of using the service provider in the first place apart from not having to use the original moneypot wallet?

2. Service providers can run their own custodian and users deposit to their own version of the moneypot wallet, which can probably be integrated into any sort of modern shopping environment if the will to do so is there. They get awarded "blinded" coins (in the end nothing more than a balance like in any normal shopping environment) and spend them as allowed by the website/custodian (only on internal products). You could then integrate lightning invoices as a way to easily hook out all these coins to another moneypot product over the lightning network if there would be an interest in doing so.

This way the end-user benefits from a tremendous amount of privacy while shopping. (if the wallet is implemented correctly)

Though again, this would probably take an enormous amount of effort compared to the little benefits that the implementers of such a scheme would reap, not to mention that stuff such as customer support and maintenance becomes very tedious if not impossible. As such it seems highly doubtful that there will be much if any interest in these kinds of implementations specifically for merchants..

This has been more or less discussed here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.55964303
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 3684
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
Old Moneypot user here, and actually even used it when they were bought over by MonsterByte (IIRC). They did have one pretty good use case back then (a free/instant transfer in between all dapps connected to the network). Wonder if you might look into doing that as well, encourage sites/services to use your wallet and all users can transfer between apps. Might even help with privacy, though I do see Lightning could absorb a lot of that advantage.

On my "to check out" list.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1125

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TOS: 404: Not found.
Cookies: 404: Not found.
Privacy Policy: 404: Not found.
You're right. On our TODO list. Perhaps we should just remove the links for now.


It has been nearly a month since your post. You are handling money and still couldn't get a privacy policy etc. online.. this is highly unprofessional.
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
Bump! Let us know if you have any unanswered questions!
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
Try to refresh your connection?
Now it shows:
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Loading...
I've tried different IP addresses, all with the same result. I'm giving up for now.

That error has nothing to do with tor itself, but rather the browser you're using. Tor browser (and presumably "Tails Browser" which is a derivative of the former?) does not allow sufficient access to stuff such as the indexedDB, as mentioned.

If you CTRL + SHIFT + I it will probably say the following:

Code:
Uncaught (in promise) DOMException: A mutation operation was attempted on a database that did not allow mutations.
We've not found any "fix" for this yet as it seems to be a feature of the browser rather than a bug, but as mentioned previously, a browser which does not retain most data is not really that great to use in combination with moneypot in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Try to refresh your connection?
Now it shows:
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Loading...
I've tried different IP addresses, all with the same result. I'm giving up for now.
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
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I don't use Windows.
Even better! In that case you should be able to install tor by using `apt install tor` (on most distros), and set the socks5 proxy of your preferred browser to
Code:
127.0.0.1:9050
I don't want to make system changes just to review a website, so I tried Tails (in a VM).

Even though the page loads in my normal Tor browser, I get this in Tails browser:
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The page isn’t redirecting properly

An error occurred during a connection to wallet.moneypot.com.

    This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to accept cookies.

Try to refresh your connection?

While trying to replicate the issue it seems that the hosting for our wallet (Netlify) seems to deny some tor exits, but allow most. A trivial error from our side.

For example, loading the wallet with 185.220.102.248 or 185.220.101.20 seems to give this error, but 185.220.101.(3/24/204/21) work fine.


Not entirely sure if this is what you're experiencing, but I can't quite replicate the issue any other way. Will look further into this and see if netlify offers some sort of bypass like cloudflare does.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Quote
I don't use Windows.
Even better! In that case you should be able to install tor by using `apt install tor` (on most distros), and set the socks5 proxy of your preferred browser to
Code:
127.0.0.1:9050
I don't want to make system changes just to review a website, so I tried Tails (in a VM).

Even though the page loads in my normal Tor browser, I get this in Tails browser:
Quote
The page isn’t redirecting properly

An error occurred during a connection to wallet.moneypot.com.

    This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to accept cookies.
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
Quote
I don't use Windows.
Even better! In that case you should be able to install tor by using `apt install tor` (on most distros), and set the socks5 proxy of your preferred browser to
Code:
127.0.0.1:9050

For Firefox simply search proxy in settings -- manual configuration -- SOCKS host ... Perhaps this is a bit uncomfortable in comparison with the tor browser... Apologies, but there is not much we can do for now.

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I've seen many algorithms that suggest much higher fees than necessary. In the past day (or week), a few sat/byte was always enough to confirm within 6 blocks.
We use Bitcoin Core's `estimatesmartfee` though we have done fairly limited testing on mainnet to see how accurate these guesstimates actually are. Hard to simulate in a testnet environment. Definitely something we look to optimize further if it turns out to be necessary.

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I just got the problem to request payment/invoice from https://htlc.me/, (due to temporary network connectivity issues). but it's ok for an on-chain deposit, which I have received in minutes.
Please further detail what is not working for you, for example:

are you:
1. - unable to send a lightning payment from moneypot to an invoice at HTLC.me?
or
2. - unable to send a lightning payment from HTLC.me to an invoice generated from moneypot?

Just tested both ways and it seems to work fine....?

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So where I can find node address (pubkey)?,  because I try another faucet that needs pubkey (I tried pubkey in the config, that isn't worked), https://faucet.lightning.community/.
While we do offer the pubkey of the lightning node (go to wallet -- FAQ / GENERAL), it is not clear what you're trying to do. Opening a channel with us won't give you any balance inside your wallet.

Code:
021ee5979b05c162a18531a7316b8a7ea64c902cac7140f42c562912e644065ce1

Node

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Can we set an expired payment? look like 24 hours set by default. I want to set it in 2 hours expired time.
We could probably let you pass expiry time as a variable when requesting an invoice which would allow users to set the expiry time themselves, but what exactly would the use of this be? Seems to only add unnecessary complexity?

legendary
Activity: 2366
Merit: 2054
~
Yes, thank you for the tutorial, that's worked.

I just got the problem to request payment/invoice from https://htlc.me/, (due to temporary network connectivity issues). but it's ok for an on-chain deposit, which I have received in minutes.

So where I can find node address (pubkey)?,  because I try another faucet that needs pubkey (I tried pubkey in the config, that isn't worked), https://faucet.lightning.community/.

Can we set an expired payment? look like 24 hours set by default. I want to set it in 2 hours expired time.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
It also would not make much sense to use the Tor Browser as it does not persist most data (cookies, local storage), which for the moneypot wallet would mean that you'd have to resync your entire wallet every time you open your browser.
I don't mind, it's just for testing.

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So a workaround would be to download the standalone tor client (if on windows), and set the socks proxy of your browser of choice to
Code:
127.0.0.1:9050
I don't use Windows.

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These are the recommended fees to get confirmed within 6 blocks
I've seen many algorithms that suggest much higher fees than necessary. In the past day (or week), a few sat/byte was always enough to confirm within 6 blocks.

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Our business model is not centered around collecting fees from in- and outputs in any way.
That's good Smiley I see the benefits of batching transactions though, it's basically what most exchanges do nowadays too, except for they charge the users a much higher fee.
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
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Of course I'm sure, but why are you asking this? All I can click is "Close" anyway.
We use cloudflare to determine if you're behind tor, but it seems that this api is not correctly identifying tor exits.. I've encountered this myself, so this is something we'll need to look into, although it is very important to make users aware that they should at least use a rotating IP.

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but why are you asking this
IPs are one of the few obvious things we (or other parties that are between the custodian and the user) can undetectably log to link your in and outputs together.

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TOS: 404: Not found.
Cookies: 404: Not found.
Privacy Policy: 404: Not found.
You're right. On our TODO list. Perhaps we should just remove the links for now.

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Nothing happens when I click the button.

So I can't test anything else for now.

Here's where things get tricky, and perhaps have been explained a bit poorly from our side of things..
While we absolutely recommend you to use tor, due to the level of access the wallet requires from features such as indexedDB, it seems impossible (for now at least) to use it in combination with the Tor Browser itself.

It also would not make much sense to use the Tor Browser as it does not persist most data (cookies, local storage), which for the moneypot wallet would mean that you'd have to resync your entire wallet every time you open your browser.

So a workaround would be to download the standalone tor client (if on windows), and set the socks proxy of your browser of choice to
Code:
127.0.0.1:9050

Quote
Those fees aren't encouraging to switch to a custodial service: I paid 111 sat fee on my last on-chain Bitcoin transaction
These are the recommended fees to get confirmed within 6 blocks, and so if you were to make a "batched" transaction using moneypot, which means you only pay for a single output (32 vbytes in most instances), it would be significantly cheaper than using any other wallet (where you will always pay for the entire transaction, so roughly 561 WU against 32 * 4 WU).

Of course, you'd need to wait for an initatior that is willing to pay for an IMMEDIATE transaction, so depending on the number of people using moneypot this might take a significantly longer time than liked.

You can also send custom transactions with whichever feerate you like (1 sat/vb) while paying for the entire transaction. And, if above 0.01BTC (for now), a free transaction, but this only gets send if we find an "optimal solution" in regard to input usage (no change). which again could take longer than liked to be sent.


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, and I don't pay anything to receive a payment.
We will probably scrap these "consolidation fees" completely for any incoming transfer over 100k sats, as it's really not meant to be anything other than a deterrent from users sending dust to our wallets from stuff such as faucets. Our business model is not centered around collecting fees from in- and outputs in any way.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Things I've noticed:

The first thing I see is a popup:
4. Click "Create Wallet".
Nothing happens when I click the button.

So I can't test anything else for now.

Those fees aren't encouraging to switch to a custodial service: I paid 111 sat fee on my last on-chain Bitcoin transaction, and I don't pay anything to receive a payment.
copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
Regardless of the extent of the wallet's development, it is a mistake to trust web wallets, especially since private keys are generated by servers that cannot know their content.
Hi, we understand your concerns. We fully acknowledge this issue and we have done everything short of making the wallet decentralized to mitigate this issue as much as possible, mostly by ensuring that all communication between the custodian and the user (wallet), is proveable to be fair. This basically entails that either the custodian can scam everyone, or no one, as scamming individual users can be proven at all times, or so is the idea at least.

Currently for a wallet with the features of moneypot (we use blind signatures to essentially let the user blend in his inputs between all the other users) not having full access over the users onchain inputs seems impossible to merge with these said features.

Decentralization seems feasible, but not at this stage.

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The development of the site is slow and some parts do not work, it gives a negative impression towards it, I advise you to stop the site and turn it into a beta version.
It seems you've reviewed our landing page. What exactly was not working? It should show everything properly now.

our wallet is located here if you wish to try that out as well:
Code:
https://wallet.moneypot.com

Quote
The comparison that appears on the first page (Why moneypot? See for yourself: moneypot   Any Wallet)[1] indicates a lack of professionalism. I hope to remove it. interface looks attractive. The rest of the site is not working.

I'm not sure I understand what you think it lacks? It's meant to give a quick impression on how moneypot differs from your regular webwallet and showcase its unique features in comparison to, say, blockchain.com.


The testnet custodian is back online!
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 4002
I thought it was a statistics website like mempool, but I was surprised that it was a wallet. Cheesy
Regardless of the extent of the wallet's development, it is a mistake to trust web wallets, especially since private keys are generated by servers that cannot know their content.
The development of the site is slow and some parts do not work, it gives a negative impression towards it, I advise you to stop the site and turn it into a beta version.

The comparison that appears on the first page (Why moneypot? See for yourself: moneypot   Any Wallet)[1] indicates a lack of professionalism. I hope to remove it. interface looks attractive. The rest of the site is not working. Smiley



[1]

copper member
Activity: 36
Merit: 80
Usually, finished software can be good to test out, I'm not sure you create semi-finished software? or you can tell us how to use it clearly like a tutorial.

That's interesting.. Had hoped that this would have been self-explanatory, but guess it needs further addressing.

So boiled down to a couple simple steps you basically do the following:

1. Take the custodian URL.
Code:
https://testnet.moneypot.dev/#pubmp1qftltpt79ucaqcsff4hxt57wl6yn59nuy06xmcv2laxjcysdyeq8xy5l4nj
2. Visit our wallet. (https://wallet.moneypot.com)
3. Insert the custodian URL in the corresponding field, insert a wallet name, and optionally a password.
4. Click "Create Wallet".

(5. Ignore the poor spelling on the wallet landing page!)


Please note: we currently have some downtime on the testnet custodian. Will update once it's online again.
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