Topic: [Ann] Safecoin maidsafecoin - page 31. (Read 76477 times)

Craig,

-Your reply clarifies a major point I've overlooked, that I'm surprised wasn't answered when David Irvine was pressed for questions on his thread.
Since it’s easier and more straightforward to particpate in the Crowdsale using BTC, it’s a reasonable assumption that the majority of particpants will be using BTC to participate.  Your statement “over inflated launch price” seems to imply your bias in this case, anyway.  The market sets these prices, even at the launch.  

Quote from: Chang Hum on Today at 04:47:50 PM
Bold part 2 again confirming the bizarre claim about issuance in the first quote

Since the protocol uses MSC to decide how many MSAFE to generate, this should be obvious.

Wow that is mind blowing you've confirmed that mastercoin really does work in this way I assumed it must have been a mistake by David Irvine.

Floors I can imediately see:
-sucks 100% of the value out of shares/assets/tokens issued. All funds raised go to Mastercoin holders who sell into this wave.
-You've had to reconfigure the crowdsale price so only 20% of all mastercoins in existence are required rather than the 66% required initially, this will work as long as the market follows such price fixings which in themselves would be criminal in any regulated financial market.
-You've given mastercoin holders a 400% incentive to dump hard to liquidate mastercoins into this project.

Quote from: Chang Hum on Today at 04:47:50 PM
Bold part 3 Someone should mention you're crazy for this as if what you're saying is true you're missing out on 400% profit presale because of price manipulations last week.

If the market responds favorably to this, the conversion rate may end up making it more beneficial to use BTC instead of MSC.  We didn’t want to see the price of MSC spike up to insane levels, so a “cap” was instituted to ensure the BTC/MSAFE ratio stayed fixed.  If anything, this actually *limits* the profit opportunity for BitAngels and MSC holders, since once the MSC/MSAFE ratio is fixed, it stays at that ratio for the duration of the Crowdsale, regardless of what the market thinks an MSC is worth.

Wow you're a piece of work  

Maybe your motivations are about quick and dirty profits, but the Mastercoin Foundation and the MaidSafe Foundation are not looking for a quick profit based on immediate market conditions.  This is about building decentralized systems than can be trusted by their algorithmic nature, and leveraging the strengths of projects in the space to do so.  We are ecstatic that MaidSafe has decided to use the Master Protocol for their Crowdsale, and we’re working hard to ensure that everything is as fair, open and transparent as possible.  


This is about coning a small Scottish tech firm into generating funds for the final days of Mastercoin. Everyone involved should be ashamed. No doubt you're ecstatic... pathetic I hope Kama get's you all.

So why choose an exchange rate that favours elevating the price of Mastercoin artificially in the short term?

I like the MaidSafe devs and I've met them in person, but the way you're going about this will ensure a fork of the software shortly after launch that will likely overtake the main chain.

The whole thing is awfully depressing to me.  Why not try to emulate Satoshi better, e.g. find some investors to help you spin up datacenters that mine your own coin, and then pay your investors in the coins you generate?

Mastercoin foundation only holds development MSC which cannot be used for stuff like this.  There are no Mastercoins that are going to the Mastercoin Foundation from this.  I have no idea where you see that.

MSC need to be used to create the new coin that is how Master Protocol works. Since most people have only BTC, they need to be converted into MSC.  But obviously MaidSafe does not want all MSC in their wallet.  So the way to do this is that a benevolent party needs to provide a loan of MSC.

So those MSC are being loaned to MaidSafe, when someone sends BTC to the crowd sale it will get converted to MSC to get the new coin.  At the end of the fundraiser  Maidsafe will pay back the MSC loan from the MSC that was sent to the crowd sale BTC address, any additional MSC that they have from people who did not send in BTC (for example I will use the MSC I bought at 0.1 for this ) they will get to keep as part of their funds.

At the end of the this the MaidSafe Foundation should have the equivalent of $10M or so of MSC and BTC.  The BTC that was converted to MSC through the loan facility, will be in their hands, and the MSC that was loaned will be returned to the person(s) who loaned them.

I hope that makes it clear, I know it's a little complicated to follow.

For clarity’s sake:

The Master Protocol Crowdsale feature allows tokens to be generated *in response* to the sending of digital currency to a particular Bitcoin address.  Claiming that “any tokens not purchased will be burned” is incorrect, because the only MaidSafeCoins that will be generated are done so *automatically* upon receipt of purchase to the Crowdsale address. 

Participants in the crowdsale will send either BTC or MSC to one of the two Crowdsale addresses.  If they send MSC, the MaidSafeCoins will be automatically generated and delivered back to the sender’s address at the fixed ratio established, and the MaidSafe Foundation keeps the MSC.  If they send BTC, those BTC are held by the MaidSafe Foundation and MSC that have been loaned to MaidSafe by BitAngels will be used to convert the correct amount into MaidSafeCoin (using the same method as if an MSC holder were to send MSC), in order to maintain the 17,000 BTC / MSAFE ratio, and those generated MSAFE coins will be sent to the BTC participant’s Bitcoin address.  The MSC loaned to MaidSafe for this conversion will simply be returned to BitAngels, while the equivalent value in BTC will remain in the hands of the MaidSafe Foundation.  A fixed exchange ratio had to be established to ensure this happens in a way such that the maths can be verified by any interested third-party, and to ensure the entire Crowdsale amounts intended to be raised would be available to do so.

The entire Crowdsale will be occuring on the Bitcoin blockchain so that anyone can audit and see the funds flow between these addresses (including the generation of MaidSafeCoins).

Links to websites and wallets to check balances and send MaidSafeCoins will be published prior to the commencement of the Crowdsale.


Since it’s easier and more straightforward to particpate in the Crowdsale using BTC, it’s a reasonable assumption that the majority of particpants will be using BTC to participate.  Your statement “over inflated launch price” seems to imply your bias in this case, anyway.  The market sets these prices, even at the launch. 


Since the protocol uses MSC to decide how many MSAFE to generate, this should be obvious.


If the market responds favorably to this, the conversion rate may end up making it more beneficial to use BTC instead of MSC.  We didn’t want to see the price of MSC spike up to insane levels, so a “cap” was instituted to ensure the BTC/MSAFE ratio stayed fixed.  If anything, this actually *limits* the profit opportunity for BitAngels and MSC holders, since once the MSC/MSAFE ratio is fixed, it stays at that ratio for the duration of the Crowdsale, regardless of what the market thinks an MSC is worth.

Maybe your motivations are about quick and dirty profits, but the Mastercoin Foundation and the MaidSafe Foundation are not looking for a quick profit based on immediate market conditions.  This is about building decentralized systems than can be trusted by their algorithmic nature, and leveraging the strengths of projects in the space to do so.  We are ecstatic that MaidSafe has decided to use the Master Protocol for their Crowdsale, and we’re working hard to ensure that everything is as fair, open and transparent as possible. 

Craig

Yes, the exchange rate of MSC/maidsafecoin and BTC/maidsafecoin is a bit troublesome.  Obviously the price spike we have seen on MSC since the announcement is due solely to this IPO.  I am sure there are schemers over at the mastercoin foundation who saw this.  I suppose though it comes down to whether or not you trust the devs of maidsafe.

Are the maidsafe devs and mastercoin foundation laughing together right now over all the cash they are gonna dupe all us suckers out of?

Or are the maidsafe devs simply genuine believers in MSC who saw it as a perfect way to fund their IPO?  Maybe they just didn't want to shit all over MSC holders by offering a lousy price when they expected their IPO to revitalize interest in MSC anyway?

I don't know.  My rule of thumb when it comes to crypto is to assume everyone is a lying thieving bastard out to con and rob as much as they can from you, until I have evidence to the contrary.  A bit cynical but I'm sure you will agree is a pretty practical stance to take.

But I really wanna believe in these guys and really like the project.  First thing to truly capture my interest in a while.  I have read a lot of articles on this so can't remember where I saw it but hasn't this been in development for like 8 years by a team of over a dozen programmers and already received $5 million in funding during that time?  It was only the token system that was tacked on more recently as a way to incentivise the project, but the underlying technology supposedly has been in development since before BTC hit $1.  If all this is true doesn't this give the maidsafe team a certain level of legitimacy beyond being just a pump and dump squad?

And as far as saying well it can just be forked anyway because it's open source, well you can say that about BTC too, doesn't mean any of the hundreds of BTC clones is even close to dethroning it.  First mover advantage is a powerful thing.  I certainly don't think anyone would be applauding maidsafe for choosing the closed source route.

I have no stake in this thing yet either way, and don't give 2 shits about MSC, I am just asking questions to try to separate fact from FUD.

Great we're nearly on the same page all the maidsafe coins will go to the foundation, where do bitcoins come into it the only way they get bitcoins is by exchanging them for the loaned bitcoins from the mastercoin foundation as stated in the same thread.

So how are they paid back? theres an underhand deal right there, they're either short selling to pay back or the mastercoin foundation has said we'll trust you with these just give us some bitcoins to a value of xamount when you sell them! <<
The problem with the mastercoins going to the foundation is they've had all their value sucked out of them because the value has needlessly gone into Mastercoin project!!! it's a simple point! and it makes no sense for them to do this

You make a really important point here I'm also trying to get at, both mastercoin and counterparty work on top of bitcoin and the assets created can be sent to any address, therefore it would require 0 Mastercoin (except for the initial cost of creating an asset) and all bitcoins collected should end up in the hands of the issuer. (e.g. an exodus address is created in this case and tokens are distributed pro rata).

Quote from David:

Q) How many mastercoins are required to release the total amount of Msafe?

total issue of MSAFE == 429,496,729
MSAFE per MSC == 3400

MSC required == 429,496,729 / 3400 == 126322 (not counting the bonus, which makes it a little less, but harder to explain)

Quote from David:

We expect most (very large part) of the fund to be BTC in the background we will use the MSC loaned to make the transfers. Just see MSC as the vehicle to make MSAFE, it's driven by BTC mainly. MSC holders can directly get MSAFE.

For many people they do not need to know or care about MSC in any way, they will use BTC and get MSAFE, all our staff are doing this and ignoring MSC.

changhumnotes

Bold part 1 why would they mastercoin holders have a chance to liquidate large amounts of a coin that's been falling since its over inflated launch price.

Bold part 2 again confirming the bizarre claim about issuance in the first quote

Bold part 3 Someone should mention you're crazy for this as if what you're saying is true you're missing out on 400% profit presale because of price manipulations last week.


Edit source of quotes: Maidsafe Google Dev thread:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/j8QBYnXOYUI

http://www.safecoin.io/

hello,I do not know  what is this coin do?

He is talking about the coins going to the MaidSafe Foundation, not the Mastercoin Foundation.

In other words the Maidsafe foundation will be funded with about $10M in BTC and MSC, or whatever $ amount it is given the BTC exchange rate at the time assuming they sell out.

I will most certainly be buying in... the dev has been working on this for years and this "safe internet" could take off massively!

first of all this is not an IPO.  they are pre-selling pre-mined coins for their p2p internet system, they are not selling shares in their company.

second, regarding "pump" when people use something it should go up in value, at least that is how the laws of supply and demand usually work.  recall MSC went as high as 0.35 btc a few months ago on the promise of folks being able to create smart properties.

the sales of these coins is designed to ensure that MaidSafe can track who owns their coins during the beta and give them funds for operating nodes, development, etc.  you can read more at safecoin.io

and as far as someone being able to "simply fork" this, just like someone has simply can simple fork bitcoin, yet bitcoin has a market cap that is 20X the value of the highest altcoin (LTC) which does not even use the same algo.

so sure people can clone stuff, but I have yet to see one example of a clone overtaking its parent in this space.  of course anything can happen, but people want to know the developers get rewarded not some random dude that comes along and rips off an idea.

Oh OK, yes I thought it was it was made by David Irvine not me though, I'd like to invest too if everything's true and proper so would like to get to the bottom of it.

Here's the quote from David that says the cost to issue the asset Msafe is $10m usd (the total number of mastercoin needed to release the assets)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/j8QBYnXOYUI

How would you interpret that?

.

No one is giving Mastercoin Foundation $10M, that's just a completely irrational and bizarre claim.

Nice imagination though.

sixteendigits is right.  I don't think that this is a scam, I just have a few basic questions.  If I tried to answer my own question from the last page, I would venture to guess that having Maidsafecoin prior to the launch of the network allows for people to trade it if they decide that they want to try for their investment back...It's unique is my point.

These guys have been working a very long time and they have been very open...pretty legit in my opinion.

Edit - Yeah...defer to tacotime abve.  Valid concerns...

price manipulation 2.0, featuring the mastercoin foundation


because the IPO is designed to pump mastercoin price and someone can simply fork maidsafe and the token system because it's open source?

Please summarize and post links to these facts we should check out ourselves?  I too purchased MSC specifically for the purpose of this IPO.

MSC is certainly controversial, I have never held any until today, and I would have preferred to see the funding done through XCP but if all the maidsafecoins are sold during the IPO, this in no way gives mastercoin foundation $10 million.  Maidsafecoins created for this IPO will all be exactly the same thing regardless of whether you bought them with BTC or MSC.  When the SAFE network launches, the maidsafecoin will be exchanged with safecoins on a 1:1 basis.  If you don't want to trade or move your maidsafecoins in the meantime, you never have to touch MSC.  My understanding is you will just have to wait until safecoin is launched, download masterchest, swap your maidsafecoin for safecoin, and you can forget MSC exists after that if you so desire.  Simply because they are using MSC as a vehicle to hopefully raise $10 million in no way shape or form gives the mastercoin foundation $10 million.

Just curious if you know something I don't or if this is FUD, because if you have further information on why I should avoid this IPO, I would greatly appreciate hearing it.

Sorry guys thought to save anyone investing on the back of what I've said the whole thing looks mad on close inspection, I think it's a scam but in a bizzare twist it looks like the naive libertarian "business man" (I put in comas because it's clear he's only worked under funding before) has been duped by the mastercoin foundation!!

Anyway I've managed to Dump all my 700 odd mastercoin at a big loss. Looks like David the director has been conned into paying $10m usd asset issuance by mastercoin foundation scum!(equiv $1 on counterparty hahaha). Shame would have loved to invest clever guy (in one way) and great project. Hard to believe someone so clever can be so stupid but check out the facts yourselves.

I was wondering this too I'm selling off a few of my mastercoins until I get a bit of a clearer understanding of these things, try asking here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/maidsafe-development