Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 161. (Read 9723733 times)

I have been commenting for years that it is not worth having a good payment platform if nobody uses it.

Advertising in mainstream media, not on pages of crypto-loving teens.

Paying to post news on youtube, twitter, or crypto "specialist" blogs is fine, but it won't make my mother use Dash,

tick tock tick tock ... time is running out.

Serious proposals are needed in this regard, Venezuela is fine as an experiment, but Venezuelans do not want Dash, they want dollars.

If we manage to use Dash in the first world, the rest comes alone, but if we seek to use dash in poor countries, it will not attract the attention of anyone in the first world.

a greeting

I can say one: once dash gets to third page ( Coin market cap ) - all whistle/dingle will be obsolete. There doesn't matter is it 50:10:40 or 60:10:30, or 7% cut of production etc. Or is it safe, decentralized, fast, etc.

 Only good thing for dash I see is that btc, eth ( and hopefully ltc, bch ) fees are up. Wish they go to heaven so dash gets used instead

about competition to paypall: we are late. Paypall going crypto, Mastercard is all over this, Visa too. Crypto.com and so many others are on it.Even Crypterium has Apple-like demonstration of sending money over just phone nr. And ppl don't care is it centralized or whatever.

About privacy: btc, ltc, now even XRP is testing it. Not to mention Monero.

Venezuela: Dash is there but WITH btc, bch,...

Bottom line: I forgot who said that "greed is ultimate human trait. You can always count on greed." Hence importance of Coinmarketcap and price.
If you don't, it gets in small community of nice people who will ultimately pay for it to float.

...and DASH has to fight against ALL of them to get where it belongs, and I think this proposal is far from moving things.
 Counting only on MN owners greed will not get this up the mountain ( that is building fast up)

I also don't think Talk's way can help ( well my op is it is better than proposal) - problem is MUCH bigger.

The Dash network now owns a Dash trademark.
This protects Dash stakeholders from third parties when using the term in commerce, and also gives us more tools to combat fraud.
https://blog.dash.org/the-dash-network-now-owns-the-dash-trademark-34cda78e656e

Well it looks ok in that sense until you consider 45% of that mined supply is effectively then given away. This is the whole point to give away less of that scarce competitively mined digital asset for free to masternodes, instead the proposal is to increase that amount. And there is a lot of room for more hashrate. Bitcoin is a whole order of magnitude higher.  
 


Yes Peercoin. The shining light of proof of stake. But you are right. It is going in circles. I'm getting weary of it. I've heard the argument about how miners are forced to sell, so give them less. Incentivise more dash to be locked up as collatoral. Maybe we'll get a price pump. For a while if it works. More dash for me. I'll just quietly ignore the empirical evidence of the market.


I assume you mean ATH in fiat not bitcoin?



Thats what makes speculation fun. Any two people can view the same chart in different ways.  

It's at an ATH... so down from what? Down from what it would have been? How do you demonstrate that?


But I'm not the one speaking in absolutes and making guarantees. But the Peercoin comparison again? Really?


DASH has a bit of work to do but if it can first break 0.008 and hold as support and do likewise to the 0.01 BTC level all the while BTC breaks above $10500 and hold that as support then I think DASH can break it's ATH and create a new ATH in a blow off top, bubble bursting fashion, end of 2021, beginning of 2022...


Well, BTC did have a mini-bull run or fake out from about April 2019 to about September 2019, and then resumed its bear market until just recently, end of May 2020. So yes, I would agree it's in a technical bull market right now, just the beginnings, cross your fingers it's not another fake out.

But I'm referring to the downtrend BTC is in against the USD since its ATH of $20K or so... hitting only lower highs since then, and most recently a double top around $10.5K on February 10 2020 and again on Jun 1 2020. So, I'm talking about BTC needing to break above $10.5K to break out of this 2+ years long trend of lower highs.

Against BTC, DASH is still forming lower highs, however it seems to have started to form higher lows since end of December 2019. Still need DASH to break above 0.01 and even 0.012 I think and use that as support to confirm any kind of trend reversal.

I would not be entirely surprised to see BTC's break out above $10.5K propel DASH and a host of other altcoins out of their bear markets though.

Btw, DASH and LTC's chart against BTC are practically the same right now, with both fighting to break thru their 50 day moving average...

Just having another play with the Dash USD chart. There is a more bullish view hidden away.

Chart

The one I am more interested in personally is the DashBTC chart, but anyway. Bull season will be on us sooner or later.
Maybe I even forget 'the proposal' (of doom) if I get enough of a dose of euphoria.

I agree with you qwizzie when you mention crypto have their own cycles of both expansion and contraction but there are also cycles where nearly all crypto increase and decrease with varying degrees but near the same time in mass pumps and dumps during bull runs.

Just picking one out from the list you posted, the thing with LINK is that I just do not trust it, its price seems so over-inflated and something never seemed right about it, eventually it will go down big and many investors will lose money. As for the others, they will not be doing well long term either but DOGE just might be near the best performing one because of historical references in media which made novices and investors rush to it with a view for pumping and dumping.

Bear trend ends surprisingly, as always before (i don't know when this happens, but an asset cannot reach zero, besides the dev group are thefts). And for most investors it's too late then, at least for some wales, who sold before a large quantity to force down the price. They cannot buy back because of no volume. These wales are thefts, gangsters and terrorists, and they will lose their wealth.

Bitcoin against the US$

Chart

Or maybe like this ?

Chart

Dash against bitcoin, losing since 2017

Chart

I haven't looked at Dash versus fiat much but on a quick glance it doesn't look very bullish either yet.

Chart



I don't yet see obvious signs of when the bear will end for Dash. I see it more obviously in bitcoin that it has ended.

I don't forget that at all. Although Ryan is not scared of opening cans of worms, maybe he will persuade the community to adjust the 7% reductions next. My initial interest in crypto currency was the way the inflation was designed to decay to zero. Your capital when you attain a masternode (or a share of a masternode)  is subject to capital gains or losses. But it doesn't do any work. (You spend  small amount on cost of running a server, that is the only expense). It is not expensive. Those coins are cheap. It doesn't matter who hodl'd them miners or masternode owners. But a portion of the supply, 45% rising to 55% is cheaply attained. The scarcity isn't maximised in Dash like it is with most proof of work cryptos.  


Down relative to what it would have been without the incentives being decreased. Ryan's proposal has helped me realise that Dash already suffered from too much cheap supply of coin to the market. His solution aggravates it not makes it better.


Besides speculation there are real monetary forces at play. As I have said, I believe Dash has to chime with these monetary principles in order to reach its potential and blossom with value. It cannot choose what the monetary forces will be important for it. Dash cannot throw scarcity away in favour of cheap security without then living with the consequence of it.

First mover advantage is not a guarantee of success. Peercoin was first mover of proof of stake. Where is it now? Yet the idea has persisted but the project, not so much.


Whats your prediction in terms of market cap ?


I don't see the same technical analysis as you do. Bitcoin broke out some time ago by the way i look at it. Dash against bitcoin showing no sign yet of breaking its years long bear channel.

So you're basically saying that a digital asset is as valuable as its holders want it to be. It's nothing to do with how scarce the blockchain protocol makes it but rather how scarce the "hodlers" make it. In that respect Dash's "store of value" integrity rests on identifying one hodling group over another and diverting most of the chain rewards to that one in the hope that they won't pass it on to the market. (Even though it's the minority group that paid for the mining cost).

If that is what you're arguing for I'd suggest crossing your fingers is at least as powerful a "store of value" principle. What you've described applies to matchsticks as easily as a blockchain asset.


The masternodes obtain the rewards at near 100% margin over cost. That usually means "free". Also by most definitions of "circulating supply" in this sector, that term refers to supply that's "out there" in someones wallet able to be spent. The fact that there's a variety of opinion over "who" is most likely to exchange their holdings for something else has no bearing on that definition which is why the claim that diverting rewards to masternodes reduces "circulating supply" is somewhat fraudulent IMO. There has been plenty of changing hands of masternodes over the years. There is also plenty of continual dumping of masternode rewards because the whole idea of investing in a node for many is to establish a revenue stream that's used for something.

The bottom line is...for an investor investing in Dash, they receive 1 Dash for every one that ends up in a masternode wallet. Either that or the coin supply is non-fungible and the masternode rewards are worthless. Take your pick of which perspective you prefer.

The wider market unfortunately has a 3rd option which is to invest in neither.

You seem to forget this phased in shift of 10% from miners to masternodes is occurring gradually over a 5 year span where at the same time DASH inflation decreases by over 7% per year. So I restate what I already said, that is the net effect is essentially masternode rewards staying roughly the same (at least for the next 2 years, then decreasing again yearly) and miner rewards decreasing more each year until after the 5th year it's 7% reduction again like the masternode share.

These 'cheap' coins, as you labelled them though, don't seem as easily obtained as you make it seem. I mean, there's not even 5000 masternodes and I don't see any evidence they've been giving them away for free. The idea that someone bothers to accumulate 1000 DASH, sets up a masternode just to dump the rewards at the bottom in a bear market is just an idea. The miner has to sell the rewards to survive. The masternode owner is likely in it longer term and will hold. If they are dumping rewards, they'll just as likely dump the collateral and hand it over to someone that will hold.

How cheap really is it to obtain the masternode rewards? Can anyone do it?

And did I miss something? DASH's hashrate is going down? Thought it just hit another ATH even after the 7% reduction we just had? Certainly you don't think this proposal being implemented will cause DASH's hashrate to go down? I mean it didn't even stall with the 7% reduction. This is not even close to as jarring as a halvening event.


Answered already... you know, speculation, market cycles. First mover advantages and innovation keep projects in the game and after that a lot of stuff is just noise to investors. Cryptos are highly speculative still and you give way too much credit to the average investor who will over and over again buy high and sell low. Btw, DASH is a first mover in its own right.

LTC and XMR are still decent enough projects and having a higher circulating supply in my opinion actually helps keep their price more stable (at least in crypto terms). DASH, less circulating supply, easier to push up in a bull market or down in a bear market.


And yet it was worth asking as I got a much more concise answer from you and toknormal than ever before.

Don't fully agree with your opinions though and neither of you have adequately proven your position.


Oh, so DASH not going to page 3 of coinmarketcap? DASH will have another bull market and won't end up like PPC?

Let's just see what happens over the next year. I suspect it surprises both of us.


Uhm... that was quoted a little out of context you think? It was merely one of a list of questions I posed, ending with me suggesting that all of that was just noise anyway. Regardless, the marketing of that time left a lot to be desired, there were a few hits, but mostly misses.


Blackcoin? Cinnicoin? Really now? You should definitely sell as soon as you can.


Yeah, that was me and I stated clearly that DASH does need to break this resistance to enter its 2nd bull market. But, there's every indication that it will if and when BTC breaks its years old bear channel with the USD. Both coins are battling strong resistance for weeks now staying relatively stable in price. This itself is a show of strength. BTC and the entire market is gearing up for a major move. Dump to $6200 or break out to $12000+? We should find out soon.

Yes its horribly familiar. Obyte was like this. Many examples.    


The trouble is hardly anyone in the current community sees this archetype as important. Much more interested in 'payments' over 'store of value'. These people want Dash to be paypal not gold or bitcoin. Its a shame, missed opportunity for dash.  I got into dash visualising it to be as good as bitcoin. I imagined value. For a long time I have kidded myself this was still the aim. For a long time I didn't even question things that I should have like the block reward split.  


Some have repeat cycles, some have a nova explosion then fade away to obscurity. Peercoin faded away, blackcoin, cloakcoin, obyte too, many have done.

Dash, as someone said in a recent post, has only been through  one market cycle. This means it is not yet proved it can repeat its one boom with another.  Against bitcoin dash is still deep in a bear channel which is years old. (on log scale) . The most recent spike above 0.01 seems to have been a pump and dump of dash.

In my opinion store of value should be primary aim, instant settlements, chain reorg protection are icing on the cake, they are not the cake. We don't replace the cake with more icing. If we want dash to stay with the leading group it has to aim to be gold. I am convinced of this.

 

Looking at the charts i suspect these cryptocurrencies will be facing a long term down trend, which looks to me like whales have already initiated.
This could lead to a situation similar to what Ripple, Dash, Litecoin and other Altcoins went through 2018-2020 :  80% - 90% retraction from their ATH price. Particularly for Chainlink and Tezos.
I suspect Dogecoin to get a much higher 'Down from ATH' pretty soon anyways (somewhere in the 90% - 100% range), as that was a simple pump and dump scheme that ended up damaging their long term value (which was already on the decline). Stellar could be the exception, it is still pretty high with its 'Down from ATH %'.

This just shows that cryptocurrencies have their own cycle at which they expand and retract in both price and marketcap. Some of these cryptocurrencies that were doing so well during
this long bear market are now getting into a situation where there is less hype, less investment and way more sell pressure. I don't think they will be setting a new ATH in price anytime soon,
as they are still pretty overvalued right now.

So what i see in common for these cryptocurrencies is a long term bearish outlook taking form, which is frankly giving me a deja-vu feeling.
I'm not sure it will take them a long time to hit rock bottom either, this could go very fast if whales wants to get out quickly to pump other kind of Altcoins (those that hit bottom already and are recovering).

Lets wait and see the difference in snapshot between now and a few weeks / months, to see if this is indeed turning much more bearish long term for these cryptocurrencies.

I am all intrigued now, please enlighten us and elaborate further 

Chains like ETH, XTZ et al are a world away from Dash in terms of market sector. They are designed from the ground up as services. They are not stores of value primarily. This is why archetypes are everything because crypto-assets are synthetic assets. You can't start off being gold, then decide to be a bit of a gold coin then say, "hey..those equities over there are getting a bit of love, we need some 'a that luv as well", then, "hey..we need to be a currency also !".

That is destructive and will end up creating a carbuncle out of what was originally a very promising archetype that Dash was following. This is why I said:


Dash has not a hope of competing with the non-mined chains on their own territory. Their token issuance is arbitrary for a start (as opposed to competitively mined). They can run rings round us on services - create entire stable coin platforms, host national GDP sized bond offerings, on and off-chain apps, you name it. Those chains are having utility priced in. They're valuable while they're useful and valueless when they become obsolete. As an archetype, more like a corporation than a precious metal. They are well suited for paying dividends because they're more like equity investments in that they can pay a return based on activity growth.

Dash is nothing like this. It inherits bitcoin's monetary model which is a digital commodity that's invested in for capital growth. You would not normally expect to receive a revenue from such an investment (because there's no service provision and no service cost for the holder). If you ain't got capital growth you got "nottin". The idea of the masternode revenue was to incentivise a high performance node network and make the capital asset more competitive (as a capital asset, not a service). Nor is currency an appropriate archetype for Dash other than in a barter sense because it's not a stable coin (if it was it wouldn't be worth investing in other than as a hedge).

For all these reasons, sacrificing mining reward for masternode reward amounts to cannibalising the capital. Like when a person starves and the body starts consuming its own organs to stay alive. Sounds a bit melo-dramatic but that's how I see it.


How very myopic if I may say so.

Were you here for the last 4 years ? Dash out-marketed everybody. What "marketing" does Litecoin do ? What does XMR do ? What do the bitcoin forks do ? None of them even had a marketing budget never mind a fully funded core group or army of decentralised marketing recruits while we have had budgets in the millions. Ben Swan alone was paid in 7-figure dollar sums. Merchants were plastered in Dash stickers and given POS terminals all across Venezuala for years. Amanda B. Johnson drew audiences from everywhere. We had Dashforce, eduction arms in Germany and we got listings on all major exchanges including Coinbase.

What those other coins DO have that we don't, however, is an efficient monetary protocol that rewards the stakeholders who bear the the network costs instead of the ones that don't.

Why look at indirect effects on competitiveness when you have a direct one staring you in the face ? Answer: cognitive dissonance and a blind tribal belief in the asset because that's what we're invested in. I've seen it in every single community from Blackcoin onwards. Even Cinnicoin was like this. Completely incapable of re-appraising what they were invested in any dispassionate way.

Unfortunately, the only meaningful appraisal in these matters can come from un-invested parties and I'm afraid those are even scarcer than a 100% mined crypto in this debate.


Is it ? What I see is that it's showing every sign of a dead cat bounce. Buoyancy is about as robust as a lead balloon. We hit rock bottom, bounced a bit, and are now trundling along at a bitcoin ratio from early 2014 days. As far as investment performance is concerned, it's against bitcoin that matters. If bitcoin hits $200,000 one day do you think a masternode will be worth $1.4 million ? That's $9 million a WEEK in masternode revenues. Half a BILLION per year. How will you justify to markets maintaining a valuation that supports such a gargantuan revenue stream doing effectively nothing ?

Even if a masternode were to be worth $200,000 at that point (which will be nearly 3 x from here), that puts Dash price at only 0.001 BTC. A loss of over 80% from here. That is why competitiveness and ranking matter, because without them you'd be better off buying BTC unless you're using Dash to buy chicken nuggets.

IMO, Dash has no option but to stick hard with its original archetype which is to inherit as much of bitcoin's monetary model as possible while making it versatile and easy to use, otherwise it'll fall into the crack between stores of value and services and disappear out of the top 100.

I always liked those community members wearing their Dash t-shirts and taking photos for promotions and publishing videos talking positively about Dash and I am referring to the non-English language videos. Those users from the South American and African countries never gave up and they never stopped being positive about Dash so full credit to them.

Well, at least you finally, sort of, answered one of my many questions... that is according to you DASH has had this problem since pretty much the beginning when masternodes were invented.

Who is we? And how was this proven? Are you just concerned with the 100% mining coins? No need to compete with non-mineable coins (which are the majority)?

Do you consider yourself smarter than most others? How do you know DASH is not less competitive (your conclusion, one I don't share) because of some other trait, maybe not enough marketing directed at the right audiences? Maybe the delay for platform? Maybe Dash Labs? But maybe all that's just noise, and this is just a market cycle.

After being created in a bear market, DASH has gone thru exactly one bull market (a fluke according to you that it did so well) and has now suffered it's first bear market. It's showing every sign in technical analysis that it's fighting to enter its second bull market. Of course if it fails to break key resistances in price while other projects don't then I suppose you can claim it will go the way of PPC. Maybe you have a crystal ball?

And how does it not follow that all other coins that pay to stake/hold/delegate are not competitive either (Tezos, ATOM, etc, etc, soon Cardano and maybe one day ETH)?

When bitcoin supply is cut in half it makes bitcoin harder to mine, that reduces inflation of supply, ie less dilution of the real supply. 'real' not 'circulating' It is harder to get the bitcoin this helps further make it more scarce. When Dash cuts miner reward to give more to masternode owners the real supply hasn't been altered at all, however there are now more cheaply obtained coins hitting the market than before in effect this has made the dash less scarce than before. Scarcity is a monetary property which is very important for store of value. Also miners have more incentive in bitcoin to compete for the less bitcoin available. In dash maybe the miners give up mining and become masternode owners. More cheap coins hitting the market in the case of dash. Less hashrate too has similar effect. Less hashrate, difficulty goes down. Scarcity goes down. Ryan has forgotten about scarcity and only considers network security. To be a successful monetary crypto dash will have to conform to monetary archetypes not the other way round. Ryan seems to think dash's technology can bend monetary principles to its will.    


The main point I was trying to make was to the ongoing discussion about how projects such as XMR and Litecoin have much more valuable blockchains despite not having the same innovation as dash and how even with no XMR or LTC locked in collatoral they still seem to have plenty of demand in their respective markets  and value in their respective blockchains


I would have though in context of previous posts it would be understood. The existing problem as I see it, is that we pay masternodes too much, which is hurting our value. We don't have enough mining.


toknormal has been very active presenting his viewpoint in various discussion threads. I struggle to imagine that this effort has not been noticed by anyone. 

Dash might be a survivor but I think it should be obvious that Dash with its innovations should be valued much more than it is. I think we all agree about that. Where we disagree is the method by which we improve it. Ryan goes in the exact opposite direction thinking he can manipulate the free market with bribes and incentives. But at the cost of scarcity wether he has realised this or not. Digital Scarcity from Proof of Work mining. That is where value comes from. Not from securing transactions cheap.  I predict Dash will do well against fiat in the next bull market, but will continue to fall in rank against other crypto projects