Topic: [ANNOUNCE, short one] Alt-currency Tenebrix now also traded (Read 3252 times)

Basically, something like that.

What you have to "grok" though, is that bicoins (and other coins) are not gold chunks that can magically travel by hitching a ride on electrons in the wires, they are unprecedented things that are best described as abstract, individually unique counterfeit-proof constructs created by means of complex mathematical computations and maintained in a rather unusual distributed database.

They are not gold and don't even really approximate "practical" behavior of gold (for starters, the excavation of gold is virtually guaranteed to not only remain stable, but to actually accelerate for the foreseeable future, while bitcoins will exhibit a sharp and unavoidable drop in production in our lifetimes...), and are distinct from (nearly?) any commodity due to being essentially infinitely divisible (the "8 decimal places" limit is arbitrary and can be programatically upgraded to "whatever number of places you feel like" with relatively little grief) and infinitely re-nominable (with same ease, you could move the dot the other way and trade Kilobitcoins and Megabitcoins, which by the way sound quite sweet)

And finally, coin-conomy is not a proper "state-like" economy as usually assumed in various x-flation arguments, and frankly I doubt that it could be, even in theory.

So all the usual arguments about coin-flation assume things about them 'coinsiz that are plainly wrong.

But I don't really mind deflation (technically, even my coins have it, and might get some more if I can seduce someone to code in a certain non-miner-offending pseudo-deflationary influence for a bounty in GG). What I find mind is the stale mindset that demands that every alt-coin have it implement the bitcoin way "BCoz it iz ze right way!1!"  (with all due respect, it is currently not practically known what are the mid, let along long term, effects of cutting miner subsidy in a system dependent on said miners for its very operation and prone to  "spirals of  doom" in case of their mass exodus)

It is pretty easy, that's why the alt chains are popping up like daisies.  Fairbrix and SolidCoin2 look good enough right now without me adding yet another chain to fragment the already limited support for alt chains.

To be sure, but the the ceiling is supposed to counteract inflation, right?  Once the maximum amount has been "minted", then deflation happens and prices of goods / services drop, right?  And that's why BTC is divisible to eight places right?  I'm just trying to make sure I understand the fundamentals.

Maybe you should make your own chain.  It can't be that difficult.

+1

I am currently standing by for some expert feedback, then, should it turn out to be in the "can be done with crypto already used in x-coins" range, I will publish a very general raw description for people to poke holes in. After that, I will need some code power

BTW, the laundry will be opensource, so people who so desire will be able to roll a BTC one (though of course, they won't have a huge-arse buffer to guarantee "history unbinding")

Well, did Satoshi intend to launch a huge transaction-mixer ?

Also, he didn't give it to himself upfront but got it nonetheless - not that anyone should give a fuck because unless he's batshit loco, he has a vested interest in not crashing BTC market.


Dear sweet Cthulhu in the sea, we have a whole thread about how does TBX behave on GPUs in the alt. forum.
Please discuss it here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tenebrix-scaling-questions-45849

Please roll this laundry service ASAP because that is what we need to get the value high enough etc. !!! Cannot wait for tenebrix to reach 100 usd !!

All of the reasons to do tenebrix apply to fairbrix and solidcoin2.  So, why get on a chain with 6 years worth of mining awarded to one person?  I'm positive bitcoin wouldn't be where it is today had Satoshi simply given himself a six year bonus upfront.

Also, I'm unconvinced the algorithm is not viable on a GPU.  It seems to scale with clock rate of my CPU and number of GPUs.  Just like a normal bitcoin miner.  I'll look further this weekend but first impression is it should run well enough on GPU -- it's just that nobody has ported the C code to OpenCL yet.

I am a graphic designer, not a cop or a judge, so I cannot assess the legality of activities of my future service's users, especially relative to laws of jurisdictions I have never been to, and never will.

I do however think that the unique position of launching a "neo-coin" grants one the ability to procure a huge mass of coins and forever lock them in a huge "relatively clean coin buffer" for just such a service, and operate said service in a manner that nominally, that mass of coins remains out of market proper forever.
Such set-up would allow the "laundry" to guarantee the client that they will never receive "their own" coins from the service, that the coins they get will always have a history completely unbound from their preceding activities.

I believe opportunity for creation of such a service to be unique and far more worthy than "premining a reasonabl-ish amount and/or leveraging first-adopter privilege, then cashing out"

P.S.:
Also, good sir, I can handle being accused of various unwholesome things - my hide is thick, but by insinuating that I am "normal people", you have insulted me greatly.

This. Would raise the price of TBX to hundreds ! Much more than BTC. Let us all be honest, the point of these currencies : they are begging for some illegal activity coming their way. Little use for normal people like you and me but huge use for nefarious purposes. Bring on the moneyzzz  !!!

No.

I intend to start a huge abstract-quasi-value-token "laundry" (aka Geist and Brix Transaction History Exchange Society) , which would be quite unprecedented at this scale. I would also like to implement it in a fairly innovative manner, but that I can't say much about yet (Unlike certain someone, I only make claims I know for certain to be at least theoretically possible)

So you are looking to cash out soon I assume ?

Maybe I should put "we put a miner in your miner so you can mine while you mine" somewhere on the site ?


The thing with x-flation arguments in bitcoin/altcoins is that what (would eventually happen) to BTC isn't real deflation, and isn't even "monetary" deflation in the way it usually happened in history.

Also, classical economic arguments simply cannot apply because bit-coinomy (and x-coinomy) isn't a proper "autonomous" State economy, but is a kind of thing that dwells inside State economies and "in places between them".

BTW, since the amount of criticism I receive for removing the upper coin generation limits is about twice the amount I receive for premine (I just on principle no longer read PMs and emails that have words inflation/deflation in them because quite frankly I feel like I'm trying to generate proof of work based on re-iteration of same arguments), I am thinking of tweaking TBX and GEG in a manner that it will have an additional "pseudo-deflationary" factor without cutting miner subsidies (principles are principles)

P.S.:
Also, monopolization (or at least, stronger oligopolization) of supply is virtually guaranteed to lead to increase in per-coin price irrespective of whether there is an upper "production ceiling" or not

Great idea -- good thing I opted for a Athlon 2 instead of a Sempron in my mining rig :-D


I was just alluding to a small money supply leading to deflation.  I assume deflation to be a good thing, but I suppose some would disagree.

No, you're somewhat thinking on a price-abstracted level, that's the "pwoblem"

Let's see... Imagine a Tenebrix specialized mining device that costs Y dollars (just making custom gadgetry, not to consider the R&D costs) and outperforms, let's say, an i7-based rig by a factor of 100.

However, an i7 rig costs 0.0001Y. Thus, ceteris paribus, the dude with Specialized Mining Device would be inferior since his box is so damn expensive.

CPUs are cheap due to economies of scales involved in their production, which imposes a  combination of maximum price / minimum Performance Increase Factor any other device must have to compete.

So far, there is only family of semi-specialized gadgetry that might have the "right" combination of price and performance  that hypothetically might make them a bit better at TBX that CPUs are APUs which are basically "angry CPUs on horse  GPU steroids".

Also, you may accuse me of any number of things, but "miner hostility is not one of them"  - if anything, you can run TBX on the CPU of your GPU-mining rig at idle priority, thus mining both TBX and any GPU-coin at the same time. TBX literally puts a miner in your miner so you can mine while you mine.



See above

Also, consider this - CPUs GPUs and FPGAs all have uses outside mining TBX so should you quit mining, you can sell them.

Dedicated custom-designed TBX cruncher will be almost useless at anything else, making economic prospects of dedicated TBX mining devices even more unsound.


I think you confuse problem of monopolization of coin supply (and bitcoin supply is already oligopolistic, with about 5-7 pools running all the show) and the issue of (not really sorta-kinda) deflation which is another can of worms.


The appeal of TBX is that you are likely to be able to get quite some by using the spare cycles your mining rig is just wasting while you mine other coins, your employer's equipment which is far more likely to be CPU-dominated and not GPU-dominated, and your PS-3 which might be somewhere around a high-end Phenom CPU in terms of Tenebrix prowess.

And yes, TBX adoption is intended to be sperad-out among a greater number of smaller, CPU-loving devices, and not relatively rare and expensive GPU-centric machines or some lab-borne exotica.

Fortunately, current state of affair is that the majority of specialized TBX equipment would be economically unsound.

Actually it shouldn't matter if someone figures out how to use FPGAs or GPUs to mine tenebrix. The faster the network goes, the higher the difficulty, unless someone fairbrixes tenebrix, haha.

In 2 years time, if Moore's law continues, CPU speed will double anyway, thus driving difficulty upwards?

Isn't the algorithm supposed to generate 1 block every 5 minutes => 7200 bricks/day ?

At current prices of 0.0016 btc / tbx that's just over 4200 btc per year... which in the big scheme is nothing.

I don't understand all the sentiment against GPU mining, FPGA mining, and mining in general.

Mining (by any pseudo-anonymous party) keeps the currency network secure, and free from central control.

The way Tenebrix is set up, wouldn't the only big players in the mining sector be those that could afford super-specialized hardware?  Or am I understanding this the opposite of its intention -- that the only real mining hardware supported in Tenebrix is commonplace CPUs?

Because the more proprietary and costly hardware becomes for effective mining, the more the larger percentage of mining will fall into the hands of few people which equates to eventual monopoly or central control.

If you keep the hardware selection rather wide (as it is with Bitcoin), it is a good idea IMO to severely limit the total coin supply -- this seems to me to be in place to directly address the problem of eventual monopoly over the network.  I think the idea is that by the time any entity gets the necessary hardware organized for monopolization, all the coins will be in circulation and then currency holders will simply subdivide and lower costs of goods / services.  This is where deflation comes in?

Well, absence of cash-out on my part in both TBX and GEG is backed by blockexplorer.

Your claims are backed by...um... ... nothing.

Best idea ever !!!

1. Make alternate chain with huge premine
2. Wait until you can cash out
3.
4. PROFIT