Topic: Annual Proof of Keys January 3rd - page 2. (Read 685 times)
I think for now I'm not yet ready to take that proof of keys. I believe I'm still satisfied with my wallet. Being or having a third party to hold my bitcoin is somehow a great deal. Its quite interesting to try if what is really the best way to gain more.
Well, fees are their main source of income for them and can be divided into deposit, withdrawal and trading fees. In most crypto exchanges withdraw fee is 50 000 satoshis, and most of that coins stay in their pockets since actual blockchain fees (BTC) are at least 10 times less than that amount and they use bulk transactions. Users who are promoting yobit/cryptotalk pay 120 000 satoshis withdraw fee, so I would say fees are very important for them.
It's definitely mostly trading fees though, probably more than 95%. And my guess is that the withdrawal fees are higher than it should be for user experience reasons- for the network fees, so transactions would be confirmed faster. And probably also to make people leave funds on exchanges(hence increasing the chances of them making trades maybe?).We can conclude that one of the reasons why users do not withdraw their coins more often from exchanges is because of fees. Imagine that you are trading and every day moving your coins from an exchange, 30x50 000 satoshis = 0.015 BTC or even more in case of some exchanges.
That's a reasonable conclusion, but let's also not forget that some people aren't willing to write down 12-24 words on a piece of paper and take the security responsibility to themselves. 
Lol what. I don't think exchanges even monetize the withdrawal fees. And if they actually did monetize withdrawal fees, it wouldn't even be a significant amount for them in the slightly. 1 BTC is pretty much almost nothing for your typical exchange.
Well, fees are their main source of income for them and can be divided into deposit, withdrawal and trading fees. In most crypto exchanges withdraw fee is 50 000 satoshis, and most of that coins stay in their pockets since actual blockchain fees (BTC) are at least 10 times less than that amount and they use bulk transactions. Users who are promoting yobit/cryptotalk pay 120 000 satoshis withdraw fee, so I would say fees are very important for them.
We can conclude that one of the reasons why users do not withdraw their coins more often from exchanges is because of fees. Imagine that you are trading and every day moving your coins from an exchange, 30x50 000 satoshis = 0.015 BTC or even more in case of some exchanges.
Exchanges have a lot of fees and I think it is not worthful to join such an activity like OP talk about. I don't think it is worth profitable for using my time and efforts.
Lol what. I don't think exchanges even monetize the withdrawal fees. And if they actually did monetize withdrawal fees, it wouldn't even be a significant amount for them in the slightly. 1 BTC is pretty much almost nothing for your typical exchange.
Well, fees are their main source of income for them and can be divided into deposit, withdrawal and trading fees. In most crypto exchanges withdraw fee is 50 000 satoshis, and most of that coins stay in their pockets since actual blockchain fees (BTC) are at least 10 times less than that amount and they use bulk transactions. Users who are promoting yobit/cryptotalk pay 120 000 satoshis withdraw fee, so I would say fees are very important for them.
We can conclude that one of the reasons why users do not withdraw their coins more often from exchanges is because of fees. Imagine that you are trading and every day moving your coins from an exchange, 30x50 000 satoshis = 0.015 BTC or even more in case of some exchanges.
So if I'm understanding this properly, we are asking everyone to give even more money to exchanges on Jan 3? If everyone moved their funds out, let's say 10k people per exchange at just 10k satoshi withdrawal fees (and some are even more), do you realize that means we are giving the exchange FREE 1 BTC?
Only the rich will do it.
Only the rich will do it.
Lol what. I don't think exchanges even monetize the withdrawal fees. And if they actually did monetize withdrawal fees, it wouldn't even be a significant amount for them in the slightly. 1 BTC is pretty much almost nothing for your typical exchange.
I store a tiny amount of coins on an exchange for when I need to quickly tap into my BTC stash, simply because I don't want to wait for tx confirmations whenever I need to do it (and don't pay fees and don't launch my cold storage setup), and I will likely skip participating in this flash mob, because I don't see any reason to do so. I trust that my exchange is not embezzling user's funds, and if I'm wrong, I will only lose the amount I can easily afford to lose.
Okay, I'm on board with the spirit of the re-brand, but not so much the names so far. "Bitcoin Day" sounds far too generic and not particularly informative. "Be your own bank" is good, but it sounds like more of a tagline than a name. We want to convey the importance of not relying on others to store your BTC. What name would sum that up best?
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Every year HODLers celebrate with a test of trust.
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Proof of Keys is the annual HODLer initiation.
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On January 3rd HODLers everywhere celebrate Bitcoin by withdrawing all their bitcoins
If you are a "HODLer" and not actively trading, then your coins shouldn't be on a exchange to begin with.
You got me, I didn't read that
Indeed, the writing is ... newbish?! Indeed, in the light of that, you are right.It may still worth mentioning that some may simply buy bitcoin and not withdraw, for various reasons. In that case (which I don't know how many bitcoin add up) the page may be correct.
Have an event called "Be your own bank" instead and run an education campaign to tell people how and why they should hold their own keys. Make it about the users - protecting their assets, security, privacy, etc. - and not about testing exchanges, most of which we already know are shady and shouldn't be trusted.
This would be a great idea if many people would not "know better" and would avoid this exactly because it's "educational".
I really don't know which of the two direction would actually get anywhere. Maybe .. both?
I agree that Jan 3 should be celebrated, but as Bitcoin day rather than this pointless exercise in futility.
Maybe a Bitcoin day where we try to open people's eyes that storing their funds in the exchanges is bad for everybody, including them.
So if I'm understanding this properly, we are asking everyone to give even more money to exchanges on Jan 3? If everyone moved their funds out, let's say 10k people per exchange at just 10k satoshi withdrawal fees (and some are even more), do you realize that means we are giving the exchange FREE 1 BTC?
Only the rich will do it.
Only the rich will do it.
This event makes absolutely no sense. The only funds you should be storing with a third party or custodial wallet are funds which are actively being traded. If you are not actively trading, then why are you storing your bitcoin on an exchange or with a third party? And if you are going to go to the effort of setting up your own wallet and transferring your bitcoin out on January 3rd, why on Earth would you then transfer this bitcoin back to the third party on January 4th? If you are truly concerned that the third party you are using is not solvent, then by the time you try to withdraw on January 3rd along with hundreds or thousands of other users, then you may already be too late. Furthermore, companies know this is coming so could quite easily sell other assets to cover the date, whilst still not holding enough bitcoin the other 364 days of the year.
The whole thing is just backwards. If you want "proof of keys", then hold the keys yourself. Any other solution is incomplete.
The whole thing is just backwards. If you want "proof of keys", then hold the keys yourself. Any other solution is incomplete.
I agree, this event is useless. First everyone is not doing it, which defeats its purpose. Second, its only once a year, it isn't incredibly difficult for online agents playing fractional reserve to anticipate the day and prepare for it. Third, all this does is provoke an unwanted spike in traffic. This is the day you can expect your transactions to last a day rather than an hour...
I agree that Jan 3 should be celebrated, but as Bitcoin day rather than this pointless exercise in futility.
Incidentally, none of the exchanges/sites that cheated on users, actually failed on Jan 3.
Somehow these 2 statements contradict themselves.
Not if you look at the page that OP has linked to. For example:Quote
Every year HODLers celebrate with a test of trust.
Quote
Proof of Keys is the annual HODLer initiation.
Quote
On January 3rd HODLers everywhere celebrate Bitcoin by withdrawing all their bitcoins
If you are a "HODLer" and not actively trading, then your coins shouldn't be on a exchange to begin with. Having an event to stress test exchanges for a single day and then going back to "business as usual" (which they obviously define as leaving your coins under the control of someone else) makes no sense. None of this is necessary if you aren't actively trading.
Have an event called "Be your own bank" instead and run an education campaign to tell people how and why they should hold their own keys. Make it about the users - protecting their assets, security, privacy, etc. - and not about testing exchanges, most of which we already know are shady and shouldn't be trusted.
This event makes absolutely no sense. The only funds you should be storing with a third party or custodial wallet are funds which are actively being traded.
Somehow these 2 statements contradict themselves. (Maybe not exactly "contradict", but I guess you'll understand what I mean.)
Yes, people should keep minimal funds on custodian wallets. But the size of the known custodian wallets shows clearly that this doesn't happen.
If really big number of people would withdraw it would be great. Not because of the extra hassle they'd create to custodians/exchanges, no. Because quite a big number of people will not deposit back, just because they don't need to, achieving exactly what's intended: having their coins under their keys.
Sir, I believe you are grossly underestimating the amount of people who have their holdings on an exchange for the mere fact that they have not yet learned how to hold on a wallet or understand the implications of allowing a custodial to do it for them.
Which is why we should be teaching them to how and why to take control of their own private keys immediately and permanently, and not just for a single day a year. The page you linked even states there will be a return to "business as usual" on the 4th of January. Business as usual meaning giving up control of your assets to a faceless third party? No thanks.This event should be less about testing the solvency of an exchange or third party and more about educating people to hold their own keys.
during this event, many exchanges are disabling the withdrawal
Any exchange which does this is a scam. 
Almost all of the bitcoin I have are on exchanges for trading or are invested somewhere. I know it's better to be safe and hold the ownership of the coins yourself, but the larger the liquidity I maintain larger would be my profit.
3rd January is still to come and we would know which of the exchanges hot wallet would go dry.
3rd January is still to come and we would know which of the exchanges hot wallet would go dry.
On January 3rd each year, Bitcoin hodlers worldwide celebrate the genesis block anniversary in an event started by Trace Mayer known as "Proof of Keys". This is the powerful and simple concept of moving your Bitcoins, for this one day of the year, from exchanges and other custodial holdings to a wallet or address that you personally control. This action is important as it lays claim to our monetary sovereignty while ensuring that custodial solutions cannot easily become insolvent or bad actors in our communities.
If you are unfamiliar with moving or storing Bitcoin, please take this opportunity to get support from the community here and refresh your confidence in your ability and that of your custodian.
https://www.proofofkeys.com/
during this event, many exchanges are disabling the withdrawalIf you are unfamiliar with moving or storing Bitcoin, please take this opportunity to get support from the community here and refresh your confidence in your ability and that of your custodian.
https://www.proofofkeys.com/
in this event, we can see which exchange has back up bitcoin
those who disable withdrawal don't have enough bitcoin for their user to withdraw
so if one of you is using one of those exchange its better not to put a large amount of bitcoin on it or stay away from the exchange
I think the idea is a good one anything that promotes the practice of hold your own keys is a worth while venture in my book, I do however have some concerns that users who may not understand how to use wallets may get into trouble either downloading the wrong wallet or even compromising there new wallet some how in the process.
I think if this was to go ahead it should focus on the education behind how to use and setup a wallet in a safe manner and how to back up that wallet to ensure coins remain safe.
As said already a lot of people are put off by installing there own wallet dew to may factors the easier we can make it for new users to understand how to do this and how to make secure backup's of funds is something I feel is more important at this time.
I love the concept but I feel users who feel un-easy about installing wallets could still run into trouble trying this out with no guide.
I think if this was to go ahead it should focus on the education behind how to use and setup a wallet in a safe manner and how to back up that wallet to ensure coins remain safe.
As said already a lot of people are put off by installing there own wallet dew to may factors the easier we can make it for new users to understand how to do this and how to make secure backup's of funds is something I feel is more important at this time.
I love the concept but I feel users who feel un-easy about installing wallets could still run into trouble trying this out with no guide.
If Bitcoin were used by everyone in the way it was designed to be used, there would be no need for a 'Proof of Keys' event. But because far too many people entrust custodial services with the bulk of their stash, this event is, sadly, quite necessary in terms of raising awareness about the pitfalls of "trusted" third parties.
I can only agree that this kind of idea does not make much sense, because the crypto community is not united enough to do something like this, and even if it were, crypto-exchanges would prevent this from happening by stopping withdraws or by increasing withdraw fees.
I agree with the message this initiative is sending, coins on exchanges are actually left at the mercy of those who hold them, and they can do whatever they want with them. We cannot completely devalue the value that crypto-exchanges have for the overall crypto system, but it's crazy to use them for anything but trading. There are many safer ways to keep our coins safe, but many do not understand it, or for some reason completely ignore this whole aspect of safety and risk.
Personally, I can't even participate in this event even if I want to, 99.99% of my coins are in hardware wallets, and just by holding them I profit more then if I do trading.
I agree with the message this initiative is sending, coins on exchanges are actually left at the mercy of those who hold them, and they can do whatever they want with them. We cannot completely devalue the value that crypto-exchanges have for the overall crypto system, but it's crazy to use them for anything but trading. There are many safer ways to keep our coins safe, but many do not understand it, or for some reason completely ignore this whole aspect of safety and risk.
Personally, I can't even participate in this event even if I want to, 99.99% of my coins are in hardware wallets, and just by holding them I profit more then if I do trading.
This event makes absolutely no sense. The only funds you should be storing with a third party or custodial wallet are funds which are actively being traded. If you are not actively trading, then why are you storing your bitcoin on an exchange or with a third party? And if you are going to go to the effort of setting up your own wallet and transferring your bitcoin out on January 3rd, why on Earth would you then transfer this bitcoin back to the third party on January 4th? If you are truly concerned that the third party you are using is not solvent, then by the time you try to withdraw on January 3rd along with hundreds or thousands of other users, then you may already be too late. Furthermore, companies know this is coming so could quite easily sell other assets to cover the date, whilst still not holding enough bitcoin the other 364 days of the year.
The whole thing is just backwards. If you want "proof of keys", then hold the keys yourself. Any other solution is incomplete.
The whole thing is just backwards. If you want "proof of keys", then hold the keys yourself. Any other solution is incomplete.
Quote
This event makes absolutely no sense.
Sir, I believe you are grossly underestimating the amount of people who have their holdings on an exchange for the mere fact that they have not yet learned how to hold on a wallet or understand the implications of allowing a custodial to do it for them.
Less than 1 year ago several friends lost a substantial amount to the quadrigacx exit scam. Had they understood that exchanges were not actual banks but more of a wild west or had the support or understanding to transfer to a wallet, this wouldn't have happened.
You are correct with the entirety of the rest of your rant however this event nor the intention of my post is aimed at someone who already understands the nature of Bitcoin and how to Hodl. You will do more harm than good to make such comments in an environment with so much misunderstanding. Please consider. This is a positive event that makes sense on many levels.
Of course removing coins from exchange January 3 and moving back to exchange in 4h is idiot, but that's not what the event is about
Withdrawing the funds on the 3rd and bringing it back on the 4th isn't THAT stupid per se, it's not stupid if you're a daytrader. Especially for those people who's main source of income is trading. But yes, checking an exchange's solvency isn't the only goal to be achieved here. It's to hopefully make people comfortable in holding their funds ont heir own wallets as it's pretty safe to assume that a huge majority of people still store non-trading funds on centralized exchanges.
I am actually also guilty of storing some of my cryptocurrencies in centralized exchanges but it is because the dollar equivalent of those assets are not really gargantuan. I am more inclined to believe that centralized exchanges are actually anathema to the very idea of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency which is decentralization. However, nothing can really be perfect and we have to accept that for now (and I am hoping this can be changing soon) centralized exchanges are offering better and convenient services and of course they know how to market their services to the targeted market.
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