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Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 311. (Read 1276817 times)

sr. member
Activity: 390
Merit: 254
Counterparty Developer
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

Any specs yet on what a "full node" represents?

In terms of actual capacity you're probably donating quite a bit more than 1.1% of the capacity of the network - for starters there aren't 11,000 full nodes reachable at any one time, more like half that number.

Noted. A preliminary list of requirements is probably:

* Has a complete copy of the blockchain.
* Has a high likelyhood of being on a different physical machine from all other nodes.
* Has an external IP address and allows incoming connections.
* Has a large number of relatively low-latency connections to other nodes.
* Is well-situated geographically.

We are also in the process of developing the required hardware specs as well. The RAM per node will be between 1GB and 2GB. While we are staging hardware requirements experiments internally, we would be interested to know if anyone has had issues running bitcoind on Linux (Ubuntu) server with 1GB of RAM (especially with 0.9.0+). The VPSes will be dedicated to running bitcoind, essentially.
sr. member
Activity: 386
Merit: 250
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction.


This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient.



this question related to the red-marked quote:

What happens if I moved a BTC to a side chain to be used with a financial instruments such as options or even betting and GAINED an equivalent value to what I moved out. I now have 2 sidecoins but previously moved only 1BTC. can I go 1-way with one of them?

Yes, because the 1BTC that you gained through trading had to be originally moved into the sidechain as well, and it can be redeemed in the same way.

Where did this gain, this additional sidecoin, come from?

Who knows?  Trading?  Betting?  SatoshiSidecoinDice?  Either way, that coin didn't come from nowhere.  It came from someone who moved it into the sidechain from the mainchain.

So is it the case that at any time, anyone can move any amount of BTC that they control into any sidechain?
EDIT: What I am getting at is whether there are limits to the number of units on a particular sidechain. One does not need to find a "seller" or "redeemer" of sidecoins to make a BTC-sidecoin trade, since the sidecoin is not truly a separate unit of currency, so one is not really trading into it, correct?

(Thank you all for your patience and generosity in responding to my questions. I assume others trying to learn, too. I'm trying to piece things together from here and the two reddit threads.)
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

Any specs yet on what a "full node" represents?

In terms of actual capacity you're probably donating quite a bit more than 1.1% of the capacity of the network - for starters there aren't 11,000 full nodes reachable at any one time, more like half that number.

Noted. A preliminary list of requirements is probably:

* Has a complete copy of the blockchain.
* Has a high likelyhood of being on a different physical machine from all other nodes.
* Has an external IP address and allows incoming connections.
* Has a large number of relatively low-latency connections to other nodes.
* Is well-situated geographically.
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1012
the coins come from somewhere.when you enter into a contract with someone else their loss is your gain. when it comes your time to redeem the coins it does not matter where they came from, just who currently holds them.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1160
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

Any specs yet on what a "full node" represents?

In terms of actual capacity you're probably donating quite a bit more than 1.1% of the capacity of the network - for starters there aren't 11,000 full nodes reachable at any one time, more like half that number.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction.


This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient.



this question related to the red-marked quote:

What happens if I moved a BTC to a side chain to be used with a financial instruments such as options or even betting and GAINED an equivalent value to what I moved out. I now have 2 sidecoins but previously moved only 1BTC. can I go 1-way with one of them?

Yes, because the 1BTC that you gained through trading had to be originally moved into the sidechain as well, and it can be redeemed in the same way.

Where did this gain, this additional sidecoin, come from?

Who knows?  Trading?  Betting?  SatoshiSidecoinDice?  Either way, that coin didn't come from nowhere.  It came from someone who moved it into the sidechain from the mainchain.
sr. member
Activity: 386
Merit: 250
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction.


This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient.



this question related to the red-marked quote:

What happens if I moved a BTC to a side chain to be used with a financial instruments such as options or even betting and GAINED an equivalent value to what I moved out. I now have 2 sidecoins but previously moved only 1BTC. can I go 1-way with one of them?

Yes, because the 1BTC that you gained through trading had to be originally moved into the sidechain as well, and it can be redeemed in the same way.

Where did this gain, this additional sidecoin, come from?
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction. The "2-way" is in contrast to one-way pegging, which is for example how Counterparty was issued. Unlike proof-of-burn, 2-way pegging involves sending coins to a special form of output which identifies the destination chain and recipient on the other side. At this stage it is similar to proof-of-burn: you have provably made the currency unspendable to you, and in doing so you gain the right to claim an equal number of coins at the destination side chain.

What's new is the return peg: to move those side chain coins back onto bitcoin, you perform the same operation again. First you send the side-chain coins to a special output naming the bitcoin chain and yourself as recipient. On the bitcoin side you take one of those previous burn-like outputs which sent coins into the side chain, and present your proof of having "burnt" sidecoins in order to claim an equal number of real bitcoins.

This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient.


This sortof-is and sortof-isn't fixed exchange rates. If you are coming from an economic background you know the problems of fixed exchange rates, but those problems don't really apply here. The problem with a fixed exchange rate over national currencies is that the two are not in fact equivalent -- you have two issuers that are separately backing each currency. In the case of 2-way pegging however, the two currencies are equivalent. You only ever get sidecoins by making bitcoins inaccessible, and vice versa. It isn't about fixing exchange rates between two currencies, rather it is about using the same exact currency on two different networks: sidecoins are bitcoins, and bitcoins are sidecoins.


Regarding innovation, monetary reward from speculative asset issuance is a failed model. Any innovation that occurs could be cloned on a side chain using bitcoins, freicoins, or some other already issued coin as the native currency. In a free market there is absolutely no reason to prefer the non-pegged alternative.

this question related to the red-marked quote:

What happens if I moved a BTC to a side chain to be used with a financial instruments such as options or even betting and GAINED an equivalent value to what I moved out. I now have 2 sidecoins but previously moved only 1BTC. can I go 1-way with one of them?

Yes, because the 1BTC that you gained through trading had to be originally moved into the sidechain as well, and it can be redeemed in the same way.
sr. member
Activity: 386
Merit: 250
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

The pope just rang me up to tell me you guys have just been granted Aureoles. Wash them separately at 30 degrees.

But really, this is incredible. After paying a 2000+ dividend to all holders of BTC rather than keeping it for yourselves you step up once more and do this. May the haters forever be silent, and may all the initiatives in the community share this spirit. I salute you.

What's just as incredible is that in the hour or so that this post has been up on reddit, 8 comments have been made, and none of them is hating on Counterparty. This is some kind of record, I think.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction. The "2-way" is in contrast to one-way pegging, which is for example how Counterparty was issued. Unlike proof-of-burn, 2-way pegging involves sending coins to a special form of output which identifies the destination chain and recipient on the other side. At this stage it is similar to proof-of-burn: you have provably made the currency unspendable to you, and in doing so you gain the right to claim an equal number of coins at the destination side chain.

What's new is the return peg: to move those side chain coins back onto bitcoin, you perform the same operation again. First you send the side-chain coins to a special output naming the bitcoin chain and yourself as recipient. On the bitcoin side you take one of those previous burn-like outputs which sent coins into the side chain, and present your proof of having "burnt" sidecoins in order to claim an equal number of real bitcoins.

This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient.


This sortof-is and sortof-isn't fixed exchange rates. If you are coming from an economic background you know the problems of fixed exchange rates, but those problems don't really apply here. The problem with a fixed exchange rate over national currencies is that the two are not in fact equivalent -- you have two issuers that are separately backing each currency. In the case of 2-way pegging however, the two currencies are equivalent. You only ever get sidecoins by making bitcoins inaccessible, and vice versa. It isn't about fixing exchange rates between two currencies, rather it is about using the same exact currency on two different networks: sidecoins are bitcoins, and bitcoins are sidecoins.


Regarding innovation, monetary reward from speculative asset issuance is a failed model. Any innovation that occurs could be cloned on a side chain using bitcoins, freicoins, or some other already issued coin as the native currency. In a free market there is absolutely no reason to prefer the non-pegged alternative.

this question related to the red-marked quote:

What happens if I moved a BTC to a side chain to be used with a financial instruments such as options or even betting and GAINED an equivalent value to what I moved out. I now have 2 sidecoins but previously moved only 1BTC. can I go 1-way with one of them?
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
Somebody please explain what the fee required and provided mean exactly. Understand that lay people who are used to buying and selling on an exchange have no idea what
this means and who pays which. I made two sell xcp for btc orders. The first one was matched and expired without btc pay. I then cancelled it. The second time I just let it expire. Now my btc balance has been reduced permanently. Really? So just putting up innocent sell orders and nobody buying them results in me losing btc? Please explain for all the non techs.

In order to disincentivise trolling of the orderbook, offers to sell BTC must provide a fee to miners, which must match the 'fee required' by orders buying BTC. The default fee is 1%. You can extend the expiration time of your order when selling BTC, so that the fee paid per unit time is as low as you want. I've just opened up a GitHub issue about this, so that the default expiration time for BTC sell orders is greater than for other orders.

Yes but I was Buying BTC. Why was my btc balance reduced permanently twice after 2 unsuccessful orders.

That may be a bug in the UI. The only BTC you spend when buying BTC is the (very small) regular Bitcoin tx fee.

EDIT: What's your address?

16khUbFwUK6X7U5X919RJeWyfBHSLfJMda

My btc balance is 0.0144398 I know before it was .016xxxx

Does a buy BTC order still spend the regular Bitcoin tx fee if it is never filled? Another problem I have with the wallet is I do not have a way to see an accounting of my btc
balance. I mean like I know it has been reduced but I do not know by how much because I do not remember exactly how much I had. Shouldn't there be a history transaction
list for btc to verify that your balance is what it should be weather it be a math error or a sent payment I don't remember doing.

The difference in those two balances was probably the fee for merely broadcasting the transaction to the network. If you want to see how much you are paying in network fees to Bitcoin miners, then look at Blockchain.info.

The logic for calculating these fees was very recently changed to keep it as low as possible.

So to make it clear for me and other laymen you are saying that every time I want to place an order for btc in counterparty as opposed to bter I have to pay a small btc fee?
How is this better than a centralized exchange? At bter I can place orders all day and not lose anything until my order is filled which is fair obviously. If this is the only way to prevent order trolling and other things then perhaps we should push much harder services like XBTC so orders can be escrowed properly. When XBTC is automated .1% sounds low but it is not low enough. It should be close to free because if bter charges .2% I think its worth it to people who trust bter more than the XBTC issuer who you basically
have to blindly trust. At least bter is a known company.

Thank you for everything you have created something special with counterparty. But I just want to remind you guys to think in terms of regular Joes. Even to Joe the idea to
trade btc without trust is exciting. But it has to be simple like cryptsy.

I am wondering what you guys have planned to make XCP valuable enough for people to want to use it to make bets in the future. If people ever see XCP as valuable like BTC
and then they can use it in a completely trustless way with no middle man to make bets and KNOW you will get paid if you win will be huge.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
Somebody please explain what the fee required and provided mean exactly. Understand that lay people who are used to buying and selling on an exchange have no idea what
this means and who pays which. I made two sell xcp for btc orders. The first one was matched and expired without btc pay. I then cancelled it. The second time I just let it expire. Now my btc balance has been reduced permanently. Really? So just putting up innocent sell orders and nobody buying them results in me losing btc? Please explain for all the non techs.

In order to disincentivise trolling of the orderbook, offers to sell BTC must provide a fee to miners, which must match the 'fee required' by orders buying BTC. The default fee is 1%. You can extend the expiration time of your order when selling BTC, so that the fee paid per unit time is as low as you want. I've just opened up a GitHub issue about this, so that the default expiration time for BTC sell orders is greater than for other orders.

Yes but I was Buying BTC. Why was my btc balance reduced permanently twice after 2 unsuccessful orders.

That may be a bug in the UI. The only BTC you spend when buying BTC is the (very small) regular Bitcoin tx fee.

EDIT: What's your address?

16khUbFwUK6X7U5X919RJeWyfBHSLfJMda

My btc balance is 0.0144398 I know before it was .016xxxx

Does a buy BTC order still spend the regular Bitcoin tx fee if it is never filled? Another problem I have with the wallet is I do not have a way to see an accounting of my btc
balance. I mean like I know it has been reduced but I do not know by how much because I do not remember exactly how much I had. Shouldn't there be a history transaction
list for btc to verify that your balance is what it should be weather it be a math error or a sent payment I don't remember doing.

The difference in those two balances was probably the fee for merely broadcasting the transaction to the network. If you want to see how much you are paying in network fees to Bitcoin miners, then look at Blockchain.info.

The logic for calculating these fees was very recently changed to keep it as low as possible.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
I tried to transfer xcp from blockchain address to counterwallet. I take private key from the blockchain BTC wallet under the option " Export unencrypted and and Bitcoin-Qt format". When I imported the private key to counterwallet, it shows "Not a valid private key". Anyone know how to solve this problem? Many thanks.
anybody help me?
Importing uncompressed keys is high on our todo list.

It should have been the very first feature.
I don't see the use of this wallet if I cannot import the priv key from blockchain.info and I think everyone would agree.


It can import some private keys from Blockchain.info. The lack of support for uncompressed keys was an oversight which we will rectify as soon as possible.
sr. member
Activity: 602
Merit: 252
ROCKMINER is considering to issue their shares via Counterparty, let's help them to go this way successfully.

ROCKMINER official website: http://www.rockminer.com/

Havelock said their policy is changed,and they only accept direct shares right now.
XCP is under developing,we will consider it if it really works well.
Thanks for your supporting.

Should I contact Havelock about the terms and conditions of running a Passthrough?
Do we want to keep everything in whole shares or rather fractional shares (1/100 maybe, like AM100?).

Would an external operator of a passthrough be OK for ROCKMINER?
legendary
Activity: 1321
Merit: 1007
Hey guys, I am offering a XCP import/transfer service. PM me for more details.

Alot of people can vouch for me
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
Somebody please explain what the fee required and provided mean exactly. Understand that lay people who are used to buying and selling on an exchange have no idea what
this means and who pays which. I made two sell xcp for btc orders. The first one was matched and expired without btc pay. I then cancelled it. The second time I just let it expire. Now my btc balance has been reduced permanently. Really? So just putting up innocent sell orders and nobody buying them results in me losing btc? Please explain for all the non techs.

In order to disincentivise trolling of the orderbook, offers to sell BTC must provide a fee to miners, which must match the 'fee required' by orders buying BTC. The default fee is 1%. You can extend the expiration time of your order when selling BTC, so that the fee paid per unit time is as low as you want. I've just opened up a GitHub issue about this, so that the default expiration time for BTC sell orders is greater than for other orders.

Yes but I was Buying BTC. Why was my btc balance reduced permanently twice after 2 unsuccessful orders.

That may be a bug in the UI. The only BTC you spend when buying BTC is the (very small) regular Bitcoin tx fee.

EDIT: What's your address?

16khUbFwUK6X7U5X919RJeWyfBHSLfJMda

My btc balance is 0.0144398 I know before it was .016xxxx

Does a buy BTC order still spend the regular Bitcoin tx fee if it is never filled? Another problem I have with the wallet is I do not have a way to see an accounting of my btc
balance. I mean like I know it has been reduced but I do not know by how much because I do not remember exactly how much I had. Shouldn't there be a history transaction
list for btc to verify that your balance is what it should be whether it be a math error or a sent payment I don't remember doing.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1131
I tried to transfer xcp from blockchain address to counterwallet. I take private key from the blockchain BTC wallet under the option " Export unencrypted and and Bitcoin-Qt format". When I imported the private key to counterwallet, it shows "Not a valid private key". Anyone know how to solve this problem? Many thanks.
anybody help me?
Importing uncompressed keys is high on our todo list.

It should have been the very first feature.
I don't see the use of this wallet if I cannot import the priv key from blockchain.info and I think everyone would agree.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

Awesome, can we just bump this on /r/Bitcoin ?
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
Counterparty Chief Scientist and Co-Founder
Somebody please explain what the fee required and provided mean exactly. Understand that lay people who are used to buying and selling on an exchange have no idea what
this means and who pays which. I made two sell xcp for btc orders. The first one was matched and expired without btc pay. I then cancelled it. The second time I just let it expire. Now my btc balance has been reduced permanently. Really? So just putting up innocent sell orders and nobody buying them results in me losing btc? Please explain for all the non techs.

In order to disincentivise trolling of the orderbook, offers to sell BTC must provide a fee to miners, which must match the 'fee required' by orders buying BTC. The default fee is 1%. You can extend the expiration time of your order when selling BTC, so that the fee paid per unit time is as low as you want. I've just opened up a GitHub issue about this, so that the default expiration time for BTC sell orders is greater than for other orders.

Yes but I was Buying BTC. Why was my btc balance reduced permanently twice after 2 unsuccessful orders.

That may be a bug in the UI. The only BTC you spend when buying BTC is the (very small) regular Bitcoin tx fee.

EDIT: What's your address?
hero member
Activity: 617
Merit: 528
This is interesting!

"To address the dearth of nodes in the Bitcoin network, the Counterparty Team will be launching the Nodeshares initiative. Nodeshares is a
non-profit that collects donations for the setup and maintenance of full bitcoin nodes."




"To kick-start the Nodeshares initiative, Counterparty will be donating 100 full nodes to Nodeshares, which is approximately 1.1% of the total nodes in the Bitcoin network. For comparison, Counterparty data currently makes up approximately 0.03% of the data in the blockchain."

https://www.counterparty.co/full-bitcoin-nodes

... and ...

http://nodeshares.com

The pope just rang me up to tell me you guys have just been granted Aureoles. Wash them separately at 30 degrees.

But really, this is incredible. After paying a 2000+ dividend to all holders of BTC rather than keeping it for yourselves you step up once more and do this. May the haters forever be silent, and may all the initiatives in the community share this spirit. I salute you.
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