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Topic: [ANN][XEL] Elastic Project - The Decentralized Supercomputer - page 241. (Read 450524 times)

hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Nice to see Lannister being active Smiley

Lannister, if you need some shiny pictures for the ANN, hit me up (although I have no idea how to answer, if you send me a PM…).

@Evil-Knievel (and the rest), what do you think about the possibility to implement a whitelist for miners, meaning, a job author can decide who is or isn't allowed to work on their job? Obviously, this list is not meant to be mandatory, but job authors can decide to use one or not and who is on their list. I know this has implications, but maybe this should be a consideration nonetheless. As pointed out above, this may be a (albeit cruel) solution to possible attacks.

@jeffthebaker: tokens are distributed when mainnet starts. When it starts depends on when testnet has proven to be stable and (relatively) bugfree.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1034
What's been going on with Elastic? I threw some BTC in it near the beginning. Website is now down? What gives?

Also, donation warnings were implemented after my payment, that seems to not be a good sign.

devs are very activ working on it, just read some of the last pages and you will see that there is alot going on

Why is the website on the announcement down? That's really not the least bit encouraging.

I want to donate but since the website is down, I can't see the details of donating or anything. This is real dissapointing.

I already mentioned it two weeks ago, and it is still down.

http://www.elastic.pro/

The website seems to be down...
For me it "took too long to respond."

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the site or is it just me?

The Donation phase is over since end of August.

regards

When will coins be distributed?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1168
Hi I am new to this thread. How would you  compare Elastic to the gridcoin?

Gridcoin is centralized, it uses a third party service named BOINC and the distribution of "Gridcoins" is made by some generous "authority" (after checking how much you worked for their BOINC Team) which you eventually have to trust.

We don't want such schemes here  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
The Donation phase is over since end of August.

regards

Ah damn.

Oh well, i'll wait.

P.S. If anyone cares, I found this: https://web.archive.org/web/20160424121021/http://elastic.pro/donations

Can I just ask, how much BTC was donated in the end?

Between 500 and 650 BTC if I remember correctly.
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
Hi I am new to this thread. How would you  compare Elastic to the gridcoin?

I too would like to know about the differences.

Is anything not possible with gridcoin that is possible with Elasticcoin?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Hi I am new to this thread. How would you  compare Elastic to the gridcoin?
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
The Donation phase is over since end of August.

regards

Ah damn.

Oh well, i'll wait.

P.S. If anyone cares, I found this: https://web.archive.org/web/20160424121021/http://elastic.pro/donations

Can I just ask, how much BTC was donated in the end?
hero member
Activity: 792
Merit: 501
What's been going on with Elastic? I threw some BTC in it near the beginning. Website is now down? What gives?

Also, donation warnings were implemented after my payment, that seems to not be a good sign.

devs are very activ working on it, just read some of the last pages and you will see that there is alot going on

Why is the website on the announcement down? That's really not the least bit encouraging.

I want to donate but since the website is down, I can't see the details of donating or anything. This is real dissapointing.

I already mentioned it two weeks ago, and it is still down.

http://www.elastic.pro/

The website seems to be down...
For me it "took too long to respond."

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the site or is it just me?

The Donation phase is over since end of August.

regards
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
What's been going on with Elastic? I threw some BTC in it near the beginning. Website is now down? What gives?

Also, donation warnings were implemented after my payment, that seems to not be a good sign.

devs are very activ working on it, just read some of the last pages and you will see that there is alot going on

Why is the website on the announcement down? That's really not the least bit encouraging.

I want to donate but since the website is down, I can't see the details of donating or anything. This is real dissapointing.

I already mentioned it two weeks ago, and it is still down.

http://www.elastic.pro/

The website seems to be down...
For me it "took too long to respond."

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the site or is it just me?

Does anyone know if it will be up soon?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1034
What's been going on with Elastic? I threw some BTC in it near the beginning. Website is now down? What gives?

Also, donation warnings were implemented after my payment, that seems to not be a good sign.

devs are very activ working on it, just read some of the last pages and you will see that there is alot going on

Why is the website on the announcement down? That's really not the least bit encouraging.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Sounds fine, then. I guess I misunderstood it before. I sometimes think, I should just shut up and let you work Tongue I could make more shiny pictures instead…

I'm not sure about the fixed amount of the bounty deposit. I think, letting the work author set it is fine? Otherwise, I'd go with a percentual amount of the bounty to be earned.

Naah!  Smiley  Without all these productive discussions with you, we would still have the old flawed system.
Not even sure if the current one isn't flawed, so further discussions are appreciated.

I may have some experience coding, but my 2 eyes cannot see everything. That's why we need your 2 eyes (and any other spare eyes) as well.

Aww, you flatter me, sir Smiley

I think we have to come to terms with the fact, that there is no such thing as a system that isn't flawed. All we can do is to fix as much of the flaws up front as possible.

I like the approach I read in some Monero thread, about having mandatory hardforks at fixed points in time. I think the best we can do is keep the system as changeable as possible and roll with the punches. There is only so much you can find out on the testnet; in the end, you'll need guys with malicious intent to find abusive potential.

In the very, very, very worst case, job authors could either create or download a whitelist of approved miners (a blacklist wouldn't work for obvious reasons), or otherwise implement a reputation system, which prioritises approved miners or something like that. I'd call it plan z, but I think it would still be better than having no Elastic at all.

Don't take the following thoughts too serious, but I find them interesting nevertheless: If you spin the whitelist idea even further, you could create a licence for miners: to be able to mine jobs, you have to pay a rather hefty one time fee to register as a miner. You, as a miner, are known on the system and can be blocked, not by the system as a whole, but by job authors.

"plan Z" holds abusive potential of its own, since things like black- or whitelists run the risk of being effectively centralized due to their nature.

Another step further would be something like the DPoS system Lisk uses, where the network as a whole votes on delegates. This idea sounds interesting, actually, so let's go down this road for a second: instead of the 101 delegates, you'd have an open number of miners. To be allowed to mine on the network, you'd need votes by a considerable amount of XEL holders, let's say, for the sake of having a number, 1% of all tokens. To get people to vote for you, you can share earnings with them(this would happen anyway, so it could just be implemented from the beginning. That way, at least nobody gets screwed over.). Since the more computing power you have, the more you earn, more people will vote for you, so the more computing power, the more reliably you get voted in.
What this does on the other hand, is, that miners who try to abuse the network are either voted out by XEL holders, since they endanger the value of their holdings, or they need to buy enough XEL to vote themselves in, but the amount needed is probably multitudes bigger than what you'd need to make some fake deposits.
Another difference to Lisk would be that instead of checking your votes every block(or every few blocks, I don't remember), once you have 1%, you are good to go for at least a few days, maybe even a few weeks. Otherwise, you'd lose a lot of miners due to the insecurity.

Obviously, these ideas would mean, that regular joe can't easily rent out his idle computing power when he is not killing goblins or whatever.


Btw., there are too few people writing in here. If I am able to voice my shitty opinion, everybody else can, too. And where is Lannister, we need to talk about this horrific first post Grin
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1168
Sounds fine, then. I guess I misunderstood it before. I sometimes think, I should just shut up and let you work Tongue I could make more shiny pictures instead…

I'm not sure about the fixed amount of the bounty deposit. I think, letting the work author set it is fine? Otherwise, I'd go with a percentual amount of the bounty to be earned.

Naah!  Smiley  Without all these productive discussions with you, we would still have the old flawed system.
Not even sure if the current one isn't flawed, so further discussions are appreciated.

I may have some experience coding, but my 2 eyes cannot see everything. That's why we need your 2 eyes (and any other spare eyes) as well.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
@ttookk:

Right now its the other way around:

- A work has requested exactly 10 bounty submissions
- Only 10 bounty announcements (hash only) are allowed in total (no matter if revealed or not)
- All bounty announcements (hash only) have to be revealed with the full solution not earlier than the next block, and not later than 15 minutes after the work closes
- Since announcements without revealed submission constitute a DOS of the authors work, the author gets compensated if that happens (since he paid out PoW payments without the chance of ever getting his full 10 bounties)
- Therefore, all announcements have a ridiculously high deposit tax which the miners forfeit if they do not reveal their bounty solutions on time.

So:
- Miners are discouraged to DOS work by submitting announcements without the full solution
- If it happens nonetheless, the work author gets compensated generously

Mitigates:
- Due the fact that bounties can only be submitted when there was a hash announcement at least 1 block before, and because there can only be 10 announcements at a time, the work author cannot outrun the miner using a sybil attack and a vast amount of his own bounties. 1 hash announcement guarantees payment when the solution is revealed in time! If the hash announcement itself gets outrun by a sybil attack, no solution is revealed! Trapdooring the verify function makes no sense therefore.

Open for discussion:
- In this scheme the bounty tax is fixed ... it might be wise to let the work author decide this tax himself within preconfigured bounds, so if he wants to avoid being DOSsed at all cost, he must bump the tax to the maximum


This is at least the scheme as it is implemented now! Totally and 100% open for discussion  Wink

Sounds fine, then. I guess I misunderstood it before. I sometimes think, I should just shut up and let you work Tongue I could make more shiny pictures instead…

I'm not sure about the fixed amount of the bounty deposit. I think, letting the work author set it is fine? Otherwise, I'd go with a percentual amount of the bounty to be earned.
ImI
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1019
Very diligent and talent dev, when will launch? TY

EK, you should put something in your signature like: "Launch not earlier then xxxx. Thank you."  Grin

 Cheesy  I can wait, i am a patient person. But very curious about the date.  Cheesy

Rough estimate: 2 months from now.
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
Very diligent and talent dev, when will launch? TY

EK, you should put something in your signature like: "Launch not earlier then xxxx. Thank you."  Grin

 Cheesy  I can wait, i am a patient person. But very curious about the date.  Cheesy
ImI
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1019
Very diligent and talent dev, when will launch? TY

EK, you should put something in your signature like: "Launch not earlier then xxxx. Thank you."  Grin
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
Very diligent and talent dev, when will launch? TY
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1168
@ttookk:

Right now its the other way around:

- A work has requested exactly 10 bounty submissions
- Only 10 bounty announcements (hash only) are allowed in total (no matter if revealed or not)
- All bounty announcements (hash only) have to be revealed with the full solution not earlier than the next block, and not later than 15 minutes after the work closes
- Since announcements without revealed submission constitute a DOS of the authors work, the author gets compensated if that happens (since he paid out PoW payments without the chance of ever getting his full 10 bounties)
- Therefore, all announcements have a ridiculously high deposit tax which the miners forfeit if they do not reveal their bounty solutions on time.

So:
- Miners are discouraged to DOS work by submitting announcements without the full solution
- If it happens nonetheless, the work author gets compensated generously

Mitigates:
- Due the fact that bounties can only be submitted when there was a hash announcement at least 1 block before, and because there can only be 10 announcements at a time, the work author cannot outrun the miner using a sybil attack and a vast amount of his own bounties. 1 hash announcement guarantees payment when the solution is revealed in time! If the hash announcement itself gets outrun by a sybil attack, no solution is revealed! Trapdooring the verify function makes no sense therefore.

Open for discussion:
- In this scheme the bounty tax is fixed ... it might be wise to let the work author decide this tax himself within preconfigured bounds, so if he wants to avoid being DOSsed at all cost, he must bump the tax to the maximum


This is at least the scheme as it is implemented now! Totally and 100% open for discussion  Wink
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Amazing work ttookk!

Thanks, I appreciate it Smiley

I think this whole bounty announcement by hash-only thing with later uncovering the bounty solution still is flawed.

- Attacker sends 20 valid but meaningless bounty announcements (attacker is the work author and has created a trapdoor in the verify routine) but does not yet reveal them
- An honest bounty announcement is posted
- A few minutes later the bounty announcement is uncovered
- At the *very* same time, the attacker unveils his 20 bounties and tries the race to be included in the block before the honest bounty gets included claiming the whole bounty pool for himself

We need a solution for that, some kind of total order!

Or we just allow as many bounty announcement submissions as bounties were requested. This would allow potent attackers to stall/DOS the job at the cost of the bounty deposits, but prevent a race by preparing and submitting "more bounty announcements" than wanted in the hope that only the own bounty revealings end up in the next block after a true bounty has been uncovered.

Also we could "throw away" not claimed bounty announcements opening up the slot again after a fixed period of time in which the bounty announcement has not been uncovered. DOSsing would be then only possible for a limited time only at the cost of the bounty deposit.
... Instead we could just leave it as is and close the job after a sufficient amount of bounty announcements starting the grace period for revealing. So a DOS attack with fake hash announcements stops the POW fund being drained and, in the worst case, earns the author the bounty deposits.

 Angry

Yeah, this really is a pain in the butt… Here are some of my thoughts on that matter:

I think there is a whole slew of possible attacks that we know and that we don't know of, which all either abuse or circumvent the bounty deposit system.

I think I stated it before, but I don't like the idea of the bounty deposit going to either of the involved parties. Here is a possible scenario:

- A job has a maximum amount of pending bounties allowed. If this is reached, no new bounty requests are allowed and no new bounty deposits happen. Once a reveal happens, a slot opens(provided there are still bounties) and the next miner can enter. Ideally, there would be some kind of qeue, but this qeue could be subject to DoS attacks…

- The bounty deposit is not a deposit, but a tax. This tax is not paid out to the job author or the miner, but enters the PoS* pool.

- There is no way for the job author or the miner, to get the "bounty deposit" back directly. The miner is rewarded in form of the bounty they receive. Obviously, the "bounty deposit" must be smaller than the potential bounty, in this case.

- A possible, albeit controversial scenario would be this: XEL has an "offline penalty", meaning, wallets that are offline/not active lose percentual parts of their funds over time. The XEL lost is paid out to stakers, as rewards. This mitigates two problems, XEL possibly has:
--> It is impossible to "burn" funds, therefore, the total amount of XEL won't decrease over time. In a system with fixed supply, this may become a problem at some point.
--> The "bounty deposit" is sent to an address with unknown priv. key (to prove this, the public key could be something like "XELDepositaddressforjobNo.1234", a string of zeros or something like that). Since no one has access to the funds, they decrease over time and float back into the ecosystem to stakers.

Obviously, this will not be well received by speculat*rs and invest*rs, because you can't hold XEL long term. Whether or not you want speculation to happen or not, is a different story, though. If you view XEL as a ticket rather than a currency, I don't see much wrong with it being a tokens that is not meant to be held for long periods of time.

Thoughts?


*There is PoS, right? I'm a little fuzzy in that regard… I mean, you could pay it out to whoever keeps the "regular" system moving
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1168
For those of you who work on the wiki:

Here are all possible "work states" with explanations:

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