Topic: [ANN][XEL] Elastic Project - The Decentralized Supercomputer - page 291. (Read 450524 times)
If we are discussing changing the number of XEL; I think Lannister has to ok this?
i have no issues with supply multiplication. 1.000.000.000 might be bit steep but no problem with that.
fmp
i have no issues with supply multiplication. 1.000.000 might be bit steep but no problem with that.
you must mean 1 billion.
i have no issues with supply multiplication. 1.000.000 might be bit steep but no problem with that.
@Evil-Knievel please find some time to brainstorm "forger set fee" and "forger set block find reward share" with @Lannister in coming days.
This could be really Holy Grail for XEL.
If it comes to fees, just keep this in mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
Lower fees = more transactions = more transactions = more fees. People will be more convinced to give tips on forums, in giveaways more people will get coins (I'm writing only about initial stage of first, most important year for XEL). There are many votes that NXT fee is too high (for regular people who bought 1000 of NXT and want to make transactions ~10NXT). And finally more network transactions increasing probability to forge something. It's important for MOST of network users who have average ~10 000 coins and forge once per month. Right now in NXT network there is more probability that you forge block with 0 fees than with >0. This is really disapointing for them when they waited long for their first forge and see nothing. If they even could see 0.001 from block generation they will be much more glad that they have any coin and feel useful with their node.
Crypto leader BTC has fees about .5 cent as a result of full blocks and there is already loud voices to boycott BTC (and mass flow to ETH).
I'm going to vacation in coming week but later I'll fork XEL repo and try to help in any way.
This could be really Holy Grail for XEL.
If it comes to fees, just keep this in mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
Lower fees = more transactions = more transactions = more fees. People will be more convinced to give tips on forums, in giveaways more people will get coins (I'm writing only about initial stage of first, most important year for XEL). There are many votes that NXT fee is too high (for regular people who bought 1000 of NXT and want to make transactions ~10NXT). And finally more network transactions increasing probability to forge something. It's important for MOST of network users who have average ~10 000 coins and forge once per month. Right now in NXT network there is more probability that you forge block with 0 fees than with >0. This is really disapointing for them when they waited long for their first forge and see nothing. If they even could see 0.001 from block generation they will be much more glad that they have any coin and feel useful with their node.
Crypto leader BTC has fees about .5 cent as a result of full blocks and there is already loud voices to boycott BTC (and mass flow to ETH).
I'm going to vacation in coming week but later I'll fork XEL repo and try to help in any way.
Regarding the supply: as long as we keep the proportions constant, there should be nothing speaking against rising the supply. But that means, if we leverage the supply from 5M to 10M, everyone will receive twice as many XEL. It has to stay fair and nobody should have any disadvantage at all!
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
NXT quantity. That means 5m * 200 = 1b ( 1,000,000,000 ).
Proven quantity that worked well with NXT and nothing should surprise if we talking about code.
All distributed equally. That means everyone should get 200x as much as he would get in case of 5m.
vote for this. easy for adoption.
Regarding the supply: as long as we keep the proportions constant, there should be nothing speaking against rising the supply. But that means, if we leverage the supply from 5M to 10M, everyone will receive twice as many XEL. It has to stay fair and nobody should have any disadvantage at all!
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
NXT quantity. That means 5m * 200 = 1b ( 1,000,000,000 ).
Proven quantity that worked well with NXT and nothing should surprise if we talking about code.
All distributed equally. That means everyone should get 200x as much as he would get in case of 5m.
NEM has 9b and this decision ended very, very well for them.
@Evil-Knievel nice bug bounty list. Wondering if rewards aren't too small.
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
All the left over XEL left over at the end of the "donation" phase will be divided among all donators proportional to how much you donated.currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
I think 5 million will be sold out before the set block.
Regarding the supply: as long as we keep the proportions constant, there should be nothing speaking against rising the supply. But that means, if we leverage the supply from 5M to 10M, everyone will receive twice as many XEL. It has to stay fair and nobody should have any disadvantage at all!
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
as i recall, all increasing supply tactic just psychological strategy to increase liquidity.
just as bitshare did 2 years ago, increasing by 200 times.
quite shocking to newbies, but actually make marketcap rise easily.
I know the most important thing is delivery of promised development, but as XEL is ready to go, it is no harm to increase supply and make xel easily stand among most legit coins.
100* or 200* of current supply is quite reasonable for future user expansion.
glad to hear from you.
cheers.
Regarding the supply: as long as we keep the proportions constant, there should be nothing speaking against rising the supply. But that means, if we leverage the supply from 5M to 10M, everyone will receive twice as many XEL. It has to stay fair and nobody should have any disadvantage at all!
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
The thing is, what would be the correct amount @unvoid, cyberhacker?
~14 days left so I think all will be sold out distributed in exchange for donation before last block.
small PHP script to see how much XEL is already taken:
$json = file_get_contents('https://raw.githubusercontent.com/elastic-project/genesis-block/master/genesis-block.json');
$arr = json_decode($json);
$sum = 0;
foreach($arr as $transaction) {
$sum += $transaction->mir_amount;
}
echo $sum;
small PHP script to see how much XEL is already taken:
Quote
$json = file_get_contents('https://raw.githubusercontent.com/elastic-project/genesis-block/master/genesis-block.json');
$arr = json_decode($json);
$sum = 0;
foreach($arr as $transaction) {
$sum += $transaction->mir_amount;
}
echo $sum;
@Evil-Knievel nice bug bounty list. Wondering if rewards aren't too small.
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
Hi,
This is what the terms and conditions say:
Quote
The Elastic Coins (XEL) giveaway ends when Bitcoin block 425920 has passed or a total of 5 million Elastic Coins (XEL) have been given away. Any of these 5 million coins that are not given away, are distributed proportionally to all donators depending on the size of their donation.
EDIT @BigBoom3599: aaaaah, seconds too late
@Evil-Knievel nice bug bounty list. Wondering if rewards aren't too small.
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
All the left over XEL left over at the end of the "donation" phase will be divided among all donators proportional to how much you donated. currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
@Evil-Knievel nice bug bounty list. Wondering if rewards aren't too small.
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
currently owned XEL: 2,956,849.9301157 (I'm joining to cyber question: What if XEL are out before end? And what will happen with remaining XEL if we hit last block and there will be still some XEL left without owner?)
another question, what if xel sold out before the set block?
again request you to increase the supply.
thanks.
All information is here: http://elastic.pro/donations
Still 2110+ blocks time.
Still 2110+ blocks time.
can you update me please?
can I still donate and receive a proportion of the coins or we are past this block?
can I still donate and receive a proportion of the coins or we are past this block?
unvoid, cyberhacker ... I will try to address your suggestions very soon!
We all agreed a few weeks ago that we need some bug bounties to "stress test" the software in the testnet. In the end, Lannister will have to manage that, but as I do know the code best and you guys have very brilliant ideas, we could come up with a list of possible bounties to suggest.
As a first shot, I would come up with these possible bounties and these rules:
General rule:
All attacks must be submitted using a proof of concept script which is easily executable. The attack must be reproducable and not use any kind of 0day attack, or any other vulnerability in Java, the Operating System, or other external pieces of software. The attack must result from a faulty implementation of Elastic itself.
Every security hole must be only submitted once. When a bug submission is made, no other submissions are allowed until the bug has been fixed and confirmed to be fixed. All submissions that occur while another submission is not yet fixed are ignored and blacklisted from resubmission.
Invasion of the user's end system:
Here, any attack that shows that a program, which is written in ElasticPL and executed in Elastic's VM can escape the sandbox and gain access to the end user system. Here, it is required that the attacker is able to extract sensitive information from the attacked system such as content of the memory (which is not part of Elastic's VM) or the content of the hard drive.
Suggested Bounty: 10 BTC
Stealing user funds or causing loss of funds:
Here, any attack that shows how other user's funds can be stolen or destroyed without access to the user's private key / passphrase. This attack has to work with arbitrary amounts, and does not include "rounding errors" where minimal amounts of XEL get lost. This also includes double spending a transaction without reorganizing the blockchain.
Suggested Bounty: 5 BTC
Hard Forks:
Here, any attack that shows how the blockchain can be forked in multiple chains that start coexisting and have no chance of being repaired are included.
Suggested Bounty: 2 BTC
DOS Attacks:
Here, any attacks that show how the Network can be DOS'ed are included. The DOS attack must have an efficiency of O(N^2) meaning that the negative impact on the network increases by the power of two compared to the resources invested.
Suggested Bounty: 0.5 BTC
Rounding Errors:
Demonstrate how XEL can be destroyed by exploiting rounding errors.
Suggested Bounty: 0.5 BTC
What do you think? We need a few more bounties, and we have to rethink the amounts maybe.
We all agreed a few weeks ago that we need some bug bounties to "stress test" the software in the testnet. In the end, Lannister will have to manage that, but as I do know the code best and you guys have very brilliant ideas, we could come up with a list of possible bounties to suggest.
As a first shot, I would come up with these possible bounties and these rules:
General rule:
All attacks must be submitted using a proof of concept script which is easily executable. The attack must be reproducable and not use any kind of 0day attack, or any other vulnerability in Java, the Operating System, or other external pieces of software. The attack must result from a faulty implementation of Elastic itself.
Every security hole must be only submitted once. When a bug submission is made, no other submissions are allowed until the bug has been fixed and confirmed to be fixed. All submissions that occur while another submission is not yet fixed are ignored and blacklisted from resubmission.
Invasion of the user's end system:
Here, any attack that shows that a program, which is written in ElasticPL and executed in Elastic's VM can escape the sandbox and gain access to the end user system. Here, it is required that the attacker is able to extract sensitive information from the attacked system such as content of the memory (which is not part of Elastic's VM) or the content of the hard drive.
Suggested Bounty: 10 BTC
Stealing user funds or causing loss of funds:
Here, any attack that shows how other user's funds can be stolen or destroyed without access to the user's private key / passphrase. This attack has to work with arbitrary amounts, and does not include "rounding errors" where minimal amounts of XEL get lost. This also includes double spending a transaction without reorganizing the blockchain.
Suggested Bounty: 5 BTC
Hard Forks:
Here, any attack that shows how the blockchain can be forked in multiple chains that start coexisting and have no chance of being repaired are included.
Suggested Bounty: 2 BTC
DOS Attacks:
Here, any attacks that show how the Network can be DOS'ed are included. The DOS attack must have an efficiency of O(N^2) meaning that the negative impact on the network increases by the power of two compared to the resources invested.
Suggested Bounty: 0.5 BTC
Rounding Errors:
Demonstrate how XEL can be destroyed by exploiting rounding errors.
Suggested Bounty: 0.5 BTC
What do you think? We need a few more bounties, and we have to rethink the amounts maybe.
yeah, how about increase the coin supply to one billion to ease liquidity.
just asking, supply increase will not dilute our value.
thanks.
just asking, supply increase will not dilute our value.
thanks.
1. Is there a reason for 5m coins? Why not 0.5m or 50m? 21m would be much better for potential bitcoin investors.
2. The fee will be static at 1 XEL? In that case fee will be big problem of XEL like it was in case of NXT and because there will be 5m coins problem will show up earlier.
3. In NXT case many people left forging because with sums below 100k NXT they was wating too long for any kind of block. I've seen possible solution to this once - can we extract 10% from block reward and send them to the random (hallmarked) forger? This way even people with 100 XEL forging have chance to get rewarded for thier time and money spent on forging.
2. The fee will be static at 1 XEL? In that case fee will be big problem of XEL like it was in case of NXT and because there will be 5m coins problem will show up earlier.
3. In NXT case many people left forging because with sums below 100k NXT they was wating too long for any kind of block. I've seen possible solution to this once - can we extract 10% from block reward and send them to the random (hallmarked) forger? This way even people with 100 XEL forging have chance to get rewarded for thier time and money spent on forging.
Hey, sorry that I didn't answer immediately. I am pretty busy getting all things together.
1. I have no idea why 5M coins. The guy who "invented" this project specified 5M (i guess he chose it randomly) and I sticked to that specification during development.
2. You are perfectly right! I have been thinking about this for a long time. For the testnet, I guess we can leave it like this but for the mainnet we have to find a better solution. Do you have any suggestions? I thought about some minimum threshold and then requiring a certain percentage of the transaction volume (again, capped by an upper bound). That would scale sort of. Whatever way we go, we have to make sure that DOS style blockchain spamming attacks remain too expensive to be carried out.
3. The POS style forging is just there for blockchain integrity. There is not much to be earned except the transaction fees. So yes, you are right we will experience the same "problem" as we have in NXT but the real XEL earning is done by solving the user-provided algorithms (by submitting bounties or proof of work transactions). These are scaled using a similar targeting mechanism as we have in Bitcoin except we adjust the target value each block. I like your idea with the hallmarked forger, but 10% will be nearly nothing. Again, the POS mining is just to ensure blockchain integrity and there is nothing to earn except the transaction fees. This was necessary because simply relying on the user-provided algorithms (and using them to form consensus about the blockchain) is prone to the so-called "faster algorithm attack" where a malicious miner creates a program that he knows a shortcut for and so can mine the majority of the blocks. By having a POS/POW combination we can circumvent that.
1. I think we should really consider to rise this supply. 5m is quite small if we think about hitting XEL adoption. As I remember (correct me if I'm wrong) NXT have 1b coins but in comparasion to BTC, comma is moved right in NXT. 1b coins like NXT have is already proven solution and we should not change that number but anything above 5m will be much better (latest example, see at daily increase in ETH mined coins. Madness and for some reason (don't ask me) people like it when there is lot of them).
2. We should learn here from giants. BTC has config setting for minimum fee that miner will accept transaction. Let's add static to config that define minimum fee that forger
3. But we are dividing this at PoS and PoW participants. Many people would like to just confirm transactions and stay with coin with lot of reasons (they don't understand PoW thing in this coin; they are afraid that solving problems will drive theirs CPUs/RAMs to roof; they are afraid that if someone can run code in their machine they expose themselves to attacks; you name it). Let's just assume that lot of people will be interested just in forging. You can't say 10% is nothing and I have two arguments for this:
3a. Many people ran away from NXT just because they seen nothing. Absolutley nothing for months of forging. Lot of people will run their nodes just for love for technology they believe but if they see nothing happening for months they will feel useless; not contribute to support network. So if they see "something" happening, lot of them will stay.
3b. I agree that it's not up to us to decide if 10% is small or big amount. Let's just take previous (and I think best) idea for now and create static config where every miner will decide how much he want to give away for rest of the forgers. Minimum setting would be 5% and maximum 50%.
Don't complicate things that aren't complicated or lot of top brains in the world can't find solution to. Just trust forgers and move on, focus on great things/coding and let the forgers decide.
Couple lines of code and we covered up most of the NXT dark sides. Not to mention that already XEL have better distribution (one of the most butthurts in NXT community). So I think XEL can be great only if we patch it up with cosmetic changes just before main net launch.
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