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Topic: Another way to hide your Seed and Private Keys (Read 641 times)

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
No, we can write the private key but not the QR code.

you can actually write or rather draw the QR code too. QR codes are just a big square that have small dots filled or empty to create the "picture". and for a private key with 32 bytes it won't be that big. you could also play around with the encoding (eg. use base43 or use all uppercase in bases like base16 that let it) and reduce the size even further.

in any case if the plan is to write down the key it is best to use an HD wallet and write down the mnemonic since they are words and easier to write down by hand compared to writing a key base58 characters.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 117
So, do you usually write down a paper wallet including the private key and the QR ?
Seems to be quite a lot of work.

Printing can under some circumstances leave traces, that's true.
Old print jobs might be accessible long time after the print job is done.

That's why it is recommended to print from a live booted USB distro and to use a non-network printer with storage for print jobs.
You can use a printer without leaving traces, but a few extra steps have to be made.

No, we can write the private key but not the QR code.

Printing without leaving any traces can be done. This would be safer! As you said, an extra step needs to be taken care and they should know the steps to remove the traces.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
If you print your seed on a paper, it may leave a file on the system(PC or Laptop) where you are printing which is not safe. Writing seed on a paper using a pen is also safe.

So, do you usually write down a paper wallet including the private key and the QR ?
Seems to be quite a lot of work.

Printing can under some circumstances leave traces, that's true.
Old print jobs might be accessible long time after the print job is done.

That's why it is recommended to print from a live booted USB distro and to use a non-network printer with storage for print jobs.
You can use a printer without leaving traces, but a few extra steps have to be made.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 117
Things we need to avoid while storing the Private keys are -
  • Never print on a paper or take a photo of a seed.

We can store the seed using a paper wallet, the cheapest, and the best way to hide the seed.
How can you claim that storing the seed printed on paper is insecure, while at the same time recommending a paper wallet?
If you print your seed on a paper, it may leave a file on the system(PC or Laptop) where you are printing which is not safe. Writing seed on a paper using a pen is also safe.


<..>
I have just added a note that we need to avoid a few things before thinking about how to store the private keys securely.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 4795
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Things we need to avoid while storing the Private keys are -

  • Never keep your private keys/seed online.
  • Never store the copy in a cloud, on pc or phone.
  • Never print on a paper or take a photo of a seed.

We can store the seed using a paper wallet, the cheapest, and the best way to hide the seed. For stronger security, we can use Cryptosteel metal to store the seed.
You are right, but nobody is disputing that here and this makes your post not to be online with the topic. There are different methods we can store private keys, I can encode my private key the way I like, but I will advise before to follow standard ways of encryption rather than brain work.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18771
A lot of very very rich people are trusting them, and they have been keeping secret/wealth of centuries.
Sure, but it still involves trust. Lots of people were trusting Mt Gox. Lots of people were trusting Lehman Brothers. Lots of trust doesn't mean too big to fail.

yes and lawyer have contingencies for this, how do you think that will are stored?
Again, yes, but how do the contingencies work? Making copies of the documents? Scanning them and storing them electronically? All this involves more people handling your passphrase and more additional risk.

Not saying your set up is necessarily bad, but it is worth considering all potential flaws.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1693
C.D.P.E.M
Anyone is seeing serious flaws here?
Complete trust in the bank or vault operator.
Same issues with diamonds, bearer share, family heirlooms...  A lot of very very rich people are trusting them, and they have been keeping secret/wealth of centuries.


Further, when you die, depending on your jurisdiction it might not be as simple as your heirs going and opening the vault. The vault may have to be opened by the bank, and the contents passed to lawyers to take a full inventory of so the contents can then be distributed according to your will. There are quite a lot of intermediaries in that process who may be able to get their hands on your seed. I would consider encrypting it first and storing the encrypted seed in the vault.
This is a good point, I believe that in my case I might need to change a few things to ensure a smoother transition between vault and heirs.
But no inheritance taxes where I am and pretty straightforward dealing with estates. Encryption is definitly needed to make sure that no one can have a look or take photos while it is being handed to heirs.

You are also trusting your lawyer to store your passphrase safely and securely (and not go out of business) for 30, 40, 50 years.
yes and lawyer have contingencies for this, how do you think that will are stored?


And of course, bear in mind that the plausible deniability of a passphrase only works if its existence can be plausibly denied. That means no obvious blockchain links between your standard wallet and your passphrased wallet, and enough funds on your standard wallet to justify the ownership of a hardware wallet. If your standard wallet is completely empty, it raises a strong suspicion that there is something more to be found.

Very true, only a fool would have an empty wallet and try to hide a juicy wallet with a passphrase.
sr. member
Activity: 1232
Merit: 379
This set up alternative way to safe private key is good but seriously I don't understand the whole process. Looking difficult to understand. You made mention to delete the thread, No this isn't good, others may learn from it, use and practice it on a daily basis and will work basically.

Other ways to safe keys too have been written here as shown above, I think if I keep to that side would be more better for me  for better understanding. Thanks anyway for your shared idea.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18771
Is there any flaw if you were to put a laminated seed inside a bottle and then buried the bottle in the backyard or inside a large pot?
Depends on the bottle. You'd need to make sure the cap was totally waterproof and airtight. The glue used in lamination can last decades if not exposed to the elements, but it will eventually break down, and exposure to water or moisture will expedite that. There are specific water and moisture proof tubes you can buy which would be better than just using an old drinks bottle, for example.

In terms of what else could go wrong - depending on where you live, you may need to bury it in the middle of the night to avoid any neighbors seeing you do it. You may also need to hide the evidence that you've dug a hole in your garden, and disguise it as part of larger garden work, a new flower bed, or something similar. Be sure there aren't any cables or pipes which run under you proposed burial site - you don't want it being discovered by a contractor trying to repair a leak.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
Things we need to avoid while storing the Private keys are -
  • Never print on a paper or take a photo of a seed.

We can store the seed using a paper wallet, the cheapest, and the best way to hide the seed.

How can you claim that storing the seed printed on paper is insecure, while at the same time recommending a paper wallet?

Storing the seed on a piece of paper is not insecure by definition. However it depends on the thread model, as always.
If an evil maid scenario is possible for you, storing it in plaintext on a piece of paper is insecure. If your physical storage however is safe, that's not the case.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1599
Is there any flaw if you were to put a laminated seed inside a bottle and then buried the bottle in the backyard or inside a large pot?

Unless you sell your lot completely forgetting the fact that you have buried a seed under the ground or you tell your friends where the "secret bottle" is located, I don't know what else could really go wrong: a house fire would not affect it if you bury it in the right place, no scanner or metal detector will ever find it and a thief won't start digging your garden whatsoever.

Might be the oldest way of hiding some valuable things, but I have a feeling it's giving the least headache overall.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 117
Things we need to avoid while storing the Private keys are -

  • Never keep your private keys/seed online.
  • Never store the copy in a cloud, on pc or phone.
  • Never print on a paper or take a photo of a seed.

We can store the seed using a paper wallet, the cheapest, and the best way to hide the seed. For stronger security, we can use Cryptosteel metal to store the seed.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18771
Anyone is seeing serious flaws here?
Complete trust in the bank or vault operator. Further, when you die, depending on your jurisdiction it might not be as simple as your heirs going and opening the vault. The vault may have to be opened by the bank, and the contents passed to lawyers to take a full inventory of so the contents can then be distributed according to your will. There are quite a lot of intermediaries in that process who may be able to get their hands on your seed. I would consider encrypting it first and storing the encrypted seed in the vault.

You are also trusting your lawyer to store your passphrase safely and securely (and not go out of business) for 30, 40, 50 years.

And of course, bear in mind that the plausible deniability of a passphrase only works if its existence can be plausibly denied. That means no obvious blockchain links between your standard wallet and your passphrased wallet, and enough funds on your standard wallet to justify the ownership of a hardware wallet. If your standard wallet is completely empty, it raises a strong suspicion that there is something more to be found.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1693
C.D.P.E.M
What about this one :

You have a ledger or trezor.

You engrave your seed on a steel plate (many options available on the market).
You add a passphrase
You put your steel plate in a bank Vault (like a proper vault, that has been here for a couple of hundred years without any breach).
You write your passphrase in your will, let with your lawyer.

Case 1 : you die. Your heirs have access to the vault and the lawyer gives them the missing 25th word.
Case 2 : you break your ledger, you go to your vault, you go to your lawyer and you have your backup
Case 3 : the vault is breached (unlikely), well, that will definitely be in the news, and you have your ledger, you move your coins to a different wallet ASAP.
The thieves will need days to test all the possible passphrases (especially if you have large entropy). And usually, bank robber are not crypto experts.
Case 4 : someone rob you and take your ledger, they only have 3 chance before wipe out.
Case 5 : someone does a $5 wrench attack, you unlock your ledger (without the  passphrase) no one is supposed to know that there is a passphrase (plausible deniability).


Anyone is seeing serious flaws here?
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
Confidentiality: Your mnemonic code is not encrypted. It is visible for anyone who looks for it.
First that one should find it  Grin , it is invisible.

And yet, does your method not protect the confidentiality of the information.


Integrity: Anyone can change your mnemonic, append new words, delete words etc.
Again. try to find it if it is supposed to be invisible  Grin

And yet, does your method not protect the Integrity.

Your method does not increase the security of your data.
sr. member
Activity: 1862
Merit: 437
Catalog Websites
We are still in quarantine and to avoid going out we watch movies or series to entertain ourselves.
A friend recommended me to watch Prison Break telling it was an excellent series, and so I did.
Season 2 Episode 7-8 Origami Codes from Scofield to Dr. Sara Tancredi being decoded.
It hit me that perhaps we could use this to hide our seed phrases for addition of security.

Let's start.
Seeds are phrases mostly so it could also be coded with the use of dots.  Grin
Requirements: An old phone. Turn off dictionary or autofill.

You will need numbers to assign where it would be pressed.
Let's use the one applied in the series as an example.

7   3  6  3 3  9    8   6   8  7 - the keys
... ..  ..  .  .. ....  ... ... .. ....
3   2  2  1 2  4    3   3   2  4 - the amount of press for each key
R   E  N  D E  Z   V   O   U  S

For our seeds, we need 12 words which will be a lot of codes.
We could just simplify it.
Example:

5...6...9...2.5... = loyal
3.3..7....5.. = desk
2..4...5..3.. = ?
7...3..7....6...8..7...2...3.. = ?

And so on...
Its old school and new hackers will have a problem breaking it. I hope.

It could also be used for private keys.
How will we input a number?
Try this: 2....0..3.... = 203 (when you press "0" once it will be space)
How about big letters?
Try this: #2..#2.#4.
Let's try combining them.
2....#2..3...4....0..9.....#8. = 2Bf409T

The only problem left is number 1.
We could use 1=1
Using the same example above we will add "1's" just to show it.
12....#2..3...4....0..19.....#8.
Since there is no 12 or 19 in our keypads you just drop the "1's".
12Bf4019T

Note: Be careful putting the dots.
I made errors while doing this just my missing 1 dot.
Double or triple check it if necessary.




I guess you could make your own encryption to your seeds or private key so that even if the hackers find a way to get your files where the encrypted private key saves you it may still not going to be hack as it is encrypted.

You could code your encryption or maybe create your own application that could encrypt and Decrypt your own password. It seems not to be a good idea or not recommended but I guess it might work for some cases.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18771
It's not bad when you have your own idea in hiding your seeds and private keys
Yes, it is. As this topic shows, people are bad at coming up with secure methods for protecting data. If you want to store some data securely, then encrypt it. There is reason that encryption is the global standard used by every half-serious tech company or user, and not everyone coming up with their own methods of encoding data like OP has done.

It's because it may be vulnerable to system corrupt and it lets you force to do factory reset data.
Did you read OP's post? There is nothing stored on the phone. He is simply using the keypad as an encoding method.

Luckily, I have activated Google Cloud drive to back them up before it happened.
Backing things up on cloud servers, email accounts, or any other online storage is a terrible idea. You are exposing your seed phrase to an unknown number of servers in an unknown number of locations, which can be accessed remotely or physically by an unknown number of people. This kind of storage is frequently hacked. I suggest you move all coins out of those wallets immediately.
hero member
Activity: 2282
Merit: 659
Looking for gigs
We are still in quarantine and to avoid going out we watch movies or series to entertain ourselves.
A friend recommended me to watch Prison Break telling it was an excellent series, and so I did.
Season 2 Episode 7-8 Origami Codes from Scofield to Dr. Sara Tancredi being decoded.
It hit me that perhaps we could use this to hide our seed phrases for addition of security.

Let's start.
Seeds are phrases mostly so it could also be coded with the use of dots.  Grin
Requirements: An old phone. Turn off dictionary or autofill.

You will need numbers to assign where it would be pressed.
Let's use the one applied in the series as an example.

7   3  6  3 3  9    8   6   8  7 - the keys
... ..  ..  .  .. ....  ... ... .. ....
3   2  2  1 2  4    3   3   2  4 - the amount of press for each key
R   E  N  D E  Z   V   O   U  S

For our seeds, we need 12 words which will be a lot of codes.
We could just simplify it.
Example:

5...6...9...2.5... = loyal
3.3..7....5.. = desk
2..4...5..3.. = ?
7...3..7....6...8..7...2...3.. = ?

And so on...
Its old school and new hackers will have a problem breaking it. I hope.

It could also be used for private keys.
How will we input a number?
Try this: 2....0..3.... = 203 (when you press "0" once it will be space)
How about big letters?
Try this: #2..#2.#4.
Let's try combining them.
2....#2..3...4....0..9.....#8. = 2Bf409T

The only problem left is number 1.
We could use 1=1
Using the same example above we will add "1's" just to show it.
12....#2..3...4....0..19.....#8.
Since there is no 12 or 19 in our keypads you just drop the "1's".
12Bf4019T

Note: Be careful putting the dots.
I made errors while doing this just my missing 1 dot.
Double or triple check it if necessary.




It's not bad when you have your own idea in hiding your seeds and private keys, but I am not in favor in using an old phone. You know why? It's because it may be vulnerable to system corrupt and it lets you force to do factory reset data.

Trust me, I've been there. My phone was corrupted and some of my seed phrases and private keys are there and cannot be recovered. Luckily, I have activated Google Cloud drive to back them up before it happened. But still, it's not a good idea to store them in a phone.

For me, it's still writing them on a piece of paper or notebook in exact order and put it somewhere safe. Not just one paper though, make sure you have a few pieces of that with your private keys or seed phrases.

I usually wanna do more than one piece of paper with private keys and seed phrases, because if something happens to me later on, at least they can be a family inheritance. You know what I mean?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18771
And as for degradation - I suppose it could be refreshed any time if nessesary, ink won’t go away from the store shelf.
How are you going to refresh it if you don't have your seed backed up the correct way - on a piece of paper with regular ink? You open the book, shine a UV light on it, and find out half the words are now unreadable. Hopefully you do this during a routine check and not because you need to recover your coins, which are now lost forever. Some UV ink will degrade within weeks or even days. If someone opens the book and exposes it to natural light, it will fade even faster.

This method is not worth the risk for the tiny additional protection it grants.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
Hide means make something invisible, right? I would use invisible UV ink to write down my explicit SEED between the lines somewhere in the middle of the thick book which is on the shelf among dozens of other books. Conveniently, securely and safely...aren't it?

Where is the security?
I don't see any security here:
Confidentiality: Your mnemonic code is not encrypted. It is visible for anyone who looks for it.
Integrity: Anyone can change your mnemonic, append new words, delete words etc.
Availability: Books are not known for being very resilient against water/fire etc.

All you did was to hide your mnemonic.
Same could be applied by writing it on a piece of paper and putting it into the drawer.



Well, I’m not that half-witted to not remember what a single specific book looks like or not memorize the one page number which coincides with my mother’s birthday, squared (everyone can choose his favorite number).  And as for degradation - I suppose it could be refreshed any time if nessesary

Despite of the lack of security (as mentioned above), what about an accident (e.g. a car hits you) ?


There is nothing against hiding secret information. But you shouldn't exclusively rely on that to secure your information.
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