Topic: Any bitcoin ATM exist in India ? (Read 4109 times)

He wouldnt, he is a lawyer. Lawyers get paid to share their opinion

So basically we are all saying the same thing.

- Black money cannot be washed if an identity is involved.
- If an ATM does identity verification it's no longer an ATM; it's an exchange.

Hence, no ATM.

May be i m missing something, i do not know any practical way of converting black to white without paying taxes for it. (dont give me the example in Shivaji movie - it is not practical)

ATM just works like two way vending machines. Depending on the volume of individual transaction it want to allow, if it (or the business behind it) is collecting the KYC and filing reports and taxes, i cannot see a reason why not. According to me the reason we do not have bitcoin atm here is just because there is not enough traction. When i believe there will at least be 20 transactions per day from KYC verified customers on such machines if placed in a strategic location, I am willing to go for one from Unocoin. Today i may not even get 2 per day

Thanks for the explanation above, but even despite the group,  there are still people who will be using that as a means to hide their black money and convert it to white. If the country wants to be strict on laws and keep the books balanced, they would not allow any ATM's as it is what might bring the unbalancing factor.

You are right that such calculations at individual levels are almost practically impossible. The way they do it is they balance the inputs the outputs of a group of a people and then gradually reduce the size of the group to levels that can be monitored if there is any suspicion.

On a lighter thought, if everybody was using cryptocurrencies then such calculations would only require a single click

Yeah i get what you mean. black and white are vicious circles. any intersections or any records of intersections of these two may mean IT dept catches both.

Regards

I dont think i would fully agree with you when you say developed countries balances the accounts. probably such balancing do not occur in any country

it is like saying, if one person suffered loss then there is a profit for another. infact it can be a loss to both like investments
then there are people who do not file because they did not reach the bracket to start filing. there may be a different number of people every year to keep track of
in every country there are people who evade taxes
and there are people who could send money out and get stuff into the country
bla bla

so i cannot see how IT can balance the records and make sure it is matching

"..you will find yourself in the same situation where we started this example from."

You would just buy a piece of land ! 

Because their IT department does its job & ours don't. Let me try to explain:

Say you have 1 crore white and another 1 crore black money. You use this to build a house worth 2 crores & wish to use this black money. You declare the government that the value of this house is only 1 crore and declare this amount on your tax declaration, but you pay the builder 1 crore through proper payment channels and remaining 1 crore in cash, since it is black money.

Now, try to imagine you are this builder. How do you spend this money?
You can't! All you can do is spend it in other black channels. You can try to imagine a situation where you try to convert this money to white and you will find yourself in the same situation where we started this example from.

What happens in real life is that the builder declares that he earned 1.5 crores to the IT department and keeps the rest of the cash undeclared. (which is still difficult to do since he only has a legitimate receipt's copy for 1 crore and he has to create receipts. Who does that?! People hide receipts, not create them!!)
Now, our IT department simply taxes the businessman for 1 crore and the builder for his declared amounts.
Yes, our IT might raid the builder in search for undeclared receipts or cash and take necessary actions. But our IT department never balances the books since India is huge and it would require a lot of work. If they do they'd realise that the input is not equal to output.

Thus if you simply balance the net money entering a group of people and the net money leaving them, then black money can never be converted to white!
Most developed countries allow bitcoin ATM because their IT departments does this work of balancing the books year after year and thus they have tight control over their fiat.

Coming back to topic, than the arguments here, I think this primarily sums it up. Specially in India, all these factors matter more than in other countries, but I still wonder arguing with the same reasons how do other countries allow them.


Perhaps it would be better if you share your views on here itself.

A right question with many legal questions hovering around it. Let me know if you want an Legal Opinion 

Regards
--
Kanishk Agarwal
Advocate
CriTaxCorp
Criminal-Taxation-Corporate
www.critaxcorp.com
+919971666252

Yeah tru.. Bitcoin is not legally recognized (not illegal) in India
And opening an ATM in India is full of risk and will take a hell lot of time of yours as first you would have to get bitcoins legally recognized and you yourself know how much time government things take in India hehe

Ok then I change my statement. Bitcoin is not legally recognized by the RBI. I hope that's fine.

Bitcoin is not considered illegal in India. Being Legally recognized and being Illegal are different terms.

What? If I understand what he asked is that he wants to start a bitcoin ATM in India? Now when trading in bitcoins is considered illegal and The Times of India stated that some time back, what should I clarify about that?

Not interested in arguing and I am sure what I read and said here is true. It may be a warning or a caution but well, RBI does not recognize it. It's as simple as it may sound:

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At present, there are no regulations governing virtual currencies like bitcoins in India. RBI, on December 24, 2013, issued a press release on virtual currencies like bitcoins, litecoins, bbqcoins, dogecoins stating that creation, trade and usage of virtual currencies as a medium for payment is not authorized by any central bank or monetary authority. Further, RBI has cautioned virtual currency traders and users to various security related risks such as hacking, malware attack etc. While RBI has not legalized bitcoins, it has declared them unauthorized as of now. RBI is currently examining the risks associated with the usage, holding and trading of virtual currencies under the extant legal and regulatory framework of India, including foreign exchange and payment systems laws and regulations.

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When the currency isn't even recognized by RBI, how can ATMs be allowed. I am not sure if he is talking about an exchange website or a physical ATM. I don't know why when I state that bitcoin trading isn't legalized, people start pouncing on me but the only thing I care about is the law.

This is called FUD. Avoid stating things that you may not have understood. Do clarify with someone or read through the forums before posting these things.

Rather than warning it is cautionary note, just like mutual fund investments have their own risk disclaimer.

Regards

A bitcoin ATM is not possible without user identification, because if you understand the economy in a decentralised consensus and how the current fiat flows, you'll realize that this is how black money gets converted to white. In which case this becomes an 'exchange' in real sense.

So I highly doubt there'd be any ATMs in India.










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There was an ATM in AP but now I can't find it in online map.


It was just a warning.