Any solution to broadcast with reduced fees? Maybe any other suggested network? - page 2.

Quickseller

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Quote from: ABCbits on April 22, 2021, 06:33:22 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on April 21, 2021, 10:47:31 PM

You could use some kind of "wrapped" bitcoin that uses another blockchain, and is easily convertible back to bitcoin. The problem with this is that you are essentially forcing your payees to bear the cost of the fees.

ETH (which host "Wrapped" Bitcoin") also have high tx fees, while Bitcoin on sidechain (such as RSK/Liquid) have very few user with very few wallet software option.

I was referring to wrapped tron, which might allow for something similar to bitcoin to be sent to those the OP needs to send bitcoin to. However, like I said, doing so would essentially be pushing the fee to be paid by the recipients if/when they ever want to spend their money.

dkbit98

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 22, 2021, 06:43:48 AM

I do not understand tech much. Someone in my PM said I can use Coinbase and ask the participants to give a Coinbase bitcoin address. In Coinbase for internal transaction he said there are no fees. And he also said there are some script I can buy which can do mass payment in Coinbase.

It is similar thing like I suggested before with Binance exchange, but with one big disadvantage and that is kyc verification.
You can use Coinbase exchange only if you are kyc verified and Binance can be used even if you don't submit any kyc documentation for up to 2 BTC per day.
Both of them and custodial services and customer don't have control over private keys, but this is only suggested solution for emergency cases like we have now with high fees.

ABCbits

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 22, 2021, 06:43:48 AM

I do not understand tech much. Someone in my PM said I can use Coinbase and ask the participants to give a Coinbase bitcoin address. In Coinbase for internal transaction he said there are no fees.

Since Coinbase is custodial service/wallet, transfer between Coinbase user actually only update balance (and add transaction history) on Coinbase server. But expect to have reduced privacy and no control over your Bitcoin.

AB de Royse777

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I do not understand tech much. Someone in my PM said I can use Coinbase and ask the participants to give a Coinbase bitcoin address. In Coinbase for internal transaction he said there are no fees. And he also said there are some script I can buy which can do mass payment in Coinbase.

Quote

Or write\buy script to ease managing. ( simple script to create qr codes with address, amount to simply scan and send...)

If such a script exists then where do I find them to buy. Is it safe at all?

ABCbits

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Quote from: AGD on April 21, 2021, 12:32:31 PM

Use Lightning. There are easy to use wallets. Electrum for example supports Lightning.

It's good choice IF OP already have channel with the receiver or have another channel which can route payment to receiver. Otherwise, you'll paid 2 times higher for transaction fee when open and close channel.

Quote from: Quickseller on April 21, 2021, 10:47:31 PM

You could use some kind of "wrapped" bitcoin that uses another blockchain, and is easily convertible back to bitcoin. The problem with this is that you are essentially forcing your payees to bear the cost of the fees.

ETH (which host "Wrapped" Bitcoin") also have high tx fees, while Bitcoin on sidechain (such as RSK/Liquid) have very few user with very few wallet software option.

Quickseller

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You could use some kind of "wrapped" bitcoin that uses another blockchain, and is easily convertible back to bitcoin. The problem with this is that you are essentially forcing your payees to bear the cost of the fees.

Setting the fee to 30 sat/byte is probably below the lower bound fee rate at which you should expect to have your transaction confirm anytime soon. The reality is that fees for sending on-chain transactions is very high currently.

Others have mentioned that you can send a single payment after a month that represents 4 weekly payments. I think this is probably the best option, and would effectively reduce the fee you are paying by 75%.

If any of your participants are willing to accept a LN transaction, you can pay via LN, but I would say that you should not force this. You can add incentives for accepting a LN payment, such as offing a small bonus.

pooya87

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Quote from: HCP on April 21, 2021, 07:35:15 PM

~

This is a good idea but there is a much easier workaround method. You simply create the transaction you want to send and sign it BUT don't send/broadcast it to network. Instead copy it as raw bytes (or hex) and use any decoder online to count the bytes. You can do it manually too, count hex characters and divide it by two. Now you know what your transaction "byte" size is so you can set the fees accurately.

If you are using Electrum or bitcoin core or any other wallet that copies the core behavior you don't need the following:
You should add 1 byte per input since there is a small chance your signatures may vary in size (be bigger by 1 or 2 bytes).

When you sign the second transaction (with higher fee of 10 sat/byte) you should double check the size and your fee before broadcasting.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: HCP on April 21, 2021, 07:35:15 PM

- It's hard to ensure 10 sats/byte fee as most wallets these days use vbytes... and a 10 sats/vbyte fee may not result in a >10 sats/byte fee... in which case your transaction will be stuck and you won't be able to accelerate it as ViaBTC accelerator uses the sats/byte fee value to determine if you meet the minimum threshold Undecided

One solution is just send with >=40 sats/vbyte and you should be good.

No need to pay 40 sat/vbyte if the purpose is to be able to use ViaBTC free accelerator.
Given the high number of outputs, there shouldn't be a big difference between the size and the virtual size.

Assuming Royse777 will send the transaction from a native segwit address and using bitcoindata.science (the tool created by bitmover), a transaction with 1 input and 50 outputs will be 1858 byte and 1678 vbyte.

Therefore the size/vsize ratio is only 1.11.

If you make the transaction with 11.1 sat/vbyte, it should be 10 sat/byte.

To ensure that the 10 sat/byte requirement is met, you can add 10-15% to the fee rate.
12-13 sat/vbyte should be enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

HCP

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Although I wouldn't recommend it as an ongoing solution, you could just gamble with a >10 sats/byte fee (NOTE: byte, not vbyte!) and then use the free ViaBTC.com accelerator to try and accelerate the transaction.

Downsides are:
- It's hard to ensure 10 sats/byte fee as most wallets these days use vbytes... and a 10 sats/vbyte fee may not result in a >10 sats/byte fee... in which case your transaction will be stuck and you won't be able to accelerate it as ViaBTC accelerator uses the sats/byte fee value to determine if you meet the minimum threshold Undecided

One solution is just send with >=40 sats/vbyte and you should be good.

- It's still a gamble... You're basically reducing your pool of possible miners to one... ViaBTC.com

- It's incredibly difficult to get a slot. You basically have to submit your transaction within the first second of a new hour or you will miss out on the 100 hourly slots. I'm sure there are people "botting" this service! Undecided

- There is still a queue... given how insane fees are and the number of unconfirmed transactions, services like this are severely oversubscribed. They have a backlog of transactions, so it could still take ViaBTC a couple of blocks before your transaction is actually included.

Honestly, I would prefer to have a delayed payment than being paid in an altcoin. So, I would check with the payees and see if they would be happy to rollover payouts to fortnightly (or even monthly) to help reduce costs and also make things easier on them as they will end up with less UTXO's which will save them fees as well.

AGD

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Use Lightning. There are easy to use wallets. Electrum for example supports Lightning.

dkbit98

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 21, 2021, 07:31:04 AM

I heard there are other chains or something (Binance chain or shit kind of things I guess). What are these and how can I use them, which wallet to use if I want to send these btc. Sorry about all these stupid things to ask. If anything exists to solve this then please can you give me some instructions so that I can mass payment these users.

There is no universally good solution for current problem we are facing and I think that alternative chains are now also congested, but maybe you can consider using some exchanges like Binance or other you prefer, and ask campaign members to have or create accounts there, and send them coins with internal transfers to new addresses.
This is not permanent and perfect solution, but you are not using other coins and you just transfer funds directly from one Binance user to another, just make sure that all have Binance accounts and addresses.
Not your keys, not your crypto still applies here, so don't hold many coins on exchanges for long time.

Read more how to make internal transfer within Binance:
https://www.binance.com/en/support/faq/360037037312

o_e_l_e_o

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I think the best solution here is to simply note everyone's payments in a database and add them to subsequent weeks, and then process a payment once a month, for a couple of reasons.

Trying to get everyone to accept an altcoin, which many will be unfamiliar with and many will want to exchange immediately for bitcoin, is going to cause you a massive headache and many will be annoyed about having to eat the exchange and transfer fee to exchange back to bitcoin.

Sending some outputs as low as 4000 sats is just causing people to have to consolidate loads of small inputs and lose even more in fees in the future. You would be saving them a lot of money by sending payments once a month instead of once a week.

Once we hit the next difficulty retarget, the difficulty is going to drop by around 20% which will result in a speed up of the average block time which should lead to a reduction in the mempool.

ranochigo

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 21, 2021, 08:39:14 AM

I do not know which address format you asked them to submit, but it would have been better to asked them for native segwit address (bc1) in which you will reduced up to 50% of the fee or more if compared to legacy addresses. (For 1 input and 2 output, the fee reduction is 42% but there are more fee reduction as the input increase if compared with legacy).

For the most parts, the reduction in fees would arise from the transaction being a segwit transaction and that is independent of the output addresses. The way that Bech32 addresses are represented does provide some sort of discount (3bytes per output) due to the different scripts being used, it doesn't translate to noticeable fees savings which is what OP wants.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 21, 2021, 08:39:14 AM

The mempool is currently at 199 sat/vbyte, but it I think using 164 sat/byte will be good for now compared to 255.4 sat/byte that you stated above, although the fee is still high but better.

Ugh. It's times like these that I really can't stand actually using bitcoin (hodling it is another story, of course). Not only are the fees in sats/byte extremely high in order to get a reasonable confirmation time, but the price of bitcoin itself is also sky-high, which makes transactions outrageous in terms of purchasing power.

And I wish I had some advice for Royse777, but I don't. The only things I can think of to speed up the payments are to increase the fee if you can or to try a transaction accelerator like ViaBTC (though they seem to be extremely backed up at the moment). In the past when the network got like this, there used to be threads popping up that offered to accelerate your transactions, sometimes for free, other times for a "donation". I do remember having one of those work for me a couple of years ago, and I'm not sure where all those folks went.

mocacinno

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Well... There are a couple things you can do to lower the fee(s), some have already been discussed in this very topic, some are already implemented by you (but i still listed them to be complete):

pay-to-many: don't send individual payments, pay in bulk
consolidate your unspent outputs whenever there's a dip in the average feerate. Tje fewer unspent outputs used as an input, the smaller your tx size.
start using a native segwit wallet, force people to give you a native segwit address
start using the lightning network
don't pay every week... accumulate the funds and pay once/month
switch to altcoins... I'm not a big fan of ETC or LTC, but when the average feerate is >140 sat/vbyte, i would understand a campaign manager if he/she asked to pay using an established altcoin for the time being...

The current average feerate is bad... There is no way around this i'm afraid. Everybody that wants a decent shot of getting his/her tx in a block in a reasonable timeframe will have to pay up (or use viabtc). You can lower your feerate by using above "tricks", but the feerate won't magically drop to 20 sats/vbyte i'm afraid.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 21, 2021, 08:07:54 AM

1. Need to pay these members ASAP. As a manager I am responsible to ensure their payment, I can not just tell them to wait.
2. It seems I will have to ask them another payment form if I want to pay them which means paying in ALT coin which hurts my feeling to be honest.

I do not know which address format you asked them to submit, but it would have been better to asked them for native segwit address (bc1) in which you will reduced up to 50% of the fee or more if compared to legacy addresses. (For 1 input and 2 output, the fee reduction is 42% but there are more fee reduction as the input increase if compared with legacy).

I checked Chipmixer recently payment, the transaction fee used was 164 sat/byte. Also I check Duelbit payment which was also yesterday, the fee was 164 sat/byte.

The mempool is currently at 199 sat/vbyte, but it I think using 164 sat/byte will be good for now compared to 255.4 sat/byte that you stated above, although the fee is still high but better.

AB de Royse777

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 21, 2021, 08:00:46 AM

You know the blackout in certain mining region if China that resulted to miners not mining in the area by now, this caused significant mining hash reduction, the reason for such congested mempool. If this continues, the mining difficulty adjustment is less than two weeks, it will be adjusted and things will become back to normal. I see that you are getting more into managing campaign now, after the whole issue is solved, you will still be able to send using a feerate between 10-20 sat/vbyte which is still fear enough. You can still hold on to using the normal bitcoin transaction.

I understand things will get back to normal but my problem how are :

1. Need to pay these members ASAP. As a manager I am responsible to ensure their payment, I can not just tell them to wait.
2. It seems I will have to ask them another payment form if I want to pay them which means paying in ALT coin which hurts my feeling to be honest.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 21, 2021, 07:31:04 AM

I heard there are other chains or something (Binance chain or shit kind of things I guess). What are these and how can I use them, which wallet to use if I want to send these btc. Sorry about all these stupid things to ask. If anything exists to solve this then please can you give me some instructions so that I can mass payment these users.

The true bitcoin we have for now only have one blockchain, which is bitcoin blockchain, it has only three address prefixes for now which are (1, 3 and bc1). Binance Smart Chain known as BSC or BEP20 is a chain in which bitcoin is introduced into such chain (but not actually the real bitcoin chain) and make use of very low fee, but not bitcoin actually, such address starts from 0x which makes it combatible with ethereum blockchain, the fee are low, and I am pretty sure Trust wallet support BSC coins, but as we know almost all altcoin wallets are close source.

The Pros
Fees are extremely low as very low is still an understatement

The Cons
Not actually real bitcoin, although it assumes the price of bitcoin
People make mistakes that can lead to coin loss, especially by sending to addresses on exchanges that do not support BSC, but the mistake come from it having ethereum addresses.

Supported wallets
https://docs.binance.org/wallets/bsc-wallets.html

You know the blackout in certain mining region if China that resulted to miners not mining in the area by now, this caused significant mining hash reduction, the reason for such congested mempool. If this continues, the mining difficulty adjustment is less than two weeks, it will be adjusted and things will become back to normal. I see that you are getting more into managing campaign now, after the whole issue is solved, you will still be able to send using a feerate between 10-20 sat/vbyte which is still fear enough. You can still hold on to using the normal bitcoin transaction.

ranochigo

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You're talking about altcoins. You need to exchange for them with Bitcoins and that assumes your recipients are willing to accept them as a payment. I don't see any point with sending payment that low, unless you're talking about an off-chain transaction.

You can consider using Lightning network for something like this, but of course your recipient needs to have a channel open first with some inbound capacity.

AB de Royse777

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Code:

3FWdmutJ8pqH9D3VNd7j2BLBUXJv49qZxW, 0.00024471
bc1qgrrkdra8902f5ssdw0tw7phleudrytj3grr7t8, 0.00012235
3FBfp7UfvPPn7B8jFwMRZwgxeuG4a52C6t, 0.00018353
bc1qf8shk2zukctgcpfna87qumgd4sc7sr7rjq7hgx, 0.00010196
3MnAwPtWnJHr28wBsZtZq5ketGtWLq9Xhr, 0.00012235
bc1qj6rhu3kjnjjndxcudn74ahl5e34qxmcdhmukxe, 0.00009136
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bc1qgst3wqnd5700prgsd05yluzl6g0dyyv507rjmq, 0.00041213

Please check above. I have like 50+ output address and all of them are not very high amount.
Fees for broadcasting 0.00435457 BTC ( 255.4 sat/byte ) at current sat/byte rate for next block.
If I reduce it to 30 sat/b which will take ages still the fees will be 0.0005115 BTC ( 30. sat/byte )

The point is the fees are taking a big amount from the budget. I never tried any other wallet for mass payment guess this is what we bitcoiner don't do. Never thought I will have this kind of sweet situation LOL

I heard there are other chains or something (Binance chain or shit kind of things I guess). What are these and how can I use them, which wallet to use if I want to send these btc. Sorry about all these stupid things to ask. If anything exists to solve this then please can you give me some instructions so that I can mass payment these users.

PS: These addresses are already public. The amounts will be changed. I am using this to give a picture of the problem I am in.

Topic: Any solution to broadcast with reduced fees? Maybe any other suggested network? - page 2. (Read 664 times)