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Topic: Any update on these FPGA boards? (Read 2206 times)

newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
September 15, 2011, 01:59:02 AM
#31
Has anyone started a company to professionally produce these? Not like a huge mega venture but just something small and professional?

I don't think that's going to happen very soon... Individuals may order batches of even tens of mining boards but a whole company? That sounds too risky to me, atleast.

The market is to small for a dedicatet commercial "FPGA mining board".
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
September 15, 2011, 12:47:52 AM
#30
Has anyone started a company to professionally produce these? Not like a huge mega venture but just something small and professional?

I don't think that's going to happen very soon... Individuals may order batches of even tens of mining boards but a whole company? That sounds too risky to me, atleast.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
September 14, 2011, 09:16:43 PM
#29
Has anyone started a company to professionally produce these? Not like a huge mega venture but just something small and professional?

See here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/custom-fpga-board-for-sale-37904
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
September 14, 2011, 08:48:50 PM
#28
Has anyone started a company to professionally produce these? Not like a huge mega venture but just something small and professional?
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
September 14, 2011, 05:35:05 PM
#27
Hi,

has already someone spent some time to create a list with the various FPGA boards that are available, the cost of the board and the maximum hash hash rate?
newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
June 12, 2011, 04:48:36 AM
#26
You can also get FPGAs mounted on boards with all kinds of interface options, USB and whatnot, ready-made from the manufacturers and those are really easy to program if you want to do it yourself. They're more expensive, though, since you're paying for all the extra hardware as well as the FPGA, but updating and sharing the algorithm would be a walk in the park. Should be great for people who already own an FPGA board, or people who want to get one anyway for the reprogrammability.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
June 12, 2011, 03:35:06 AM
#25
Quote

What do you think the cost to develop a commercial FPGA and/or ASIC solution would cost? Perhaps some engineers should put their heads together and come up with realistic specs, an open source design, and the software to run it. I don't see that happening, and unless someone decides to invest a few hundred thousand dollars into specialized equipment, and the time to sell specialty FPGA and/or ASIC Mining devices, I don't think it's going to happen.

Once a fully working and bug free FPGA design is ready it will take this to move to full ASIC production.  (from what I understand about it so far).

cost - $200k - $1.5MM
time - 6 - 18 months

So you have to find an investor who believes in Bitcoin enough to trust your estimates for difficulty in 6-18 months, and you'd have to ensure that you weren't late to market with a unit or units that were already behind the curve, right?

If Bitcoin continues down the road it's on, then yes - there will be dedicated ASIC bitmining units sold commercially. However, it's a long road from here to there.

Regarding being behind the curve. If the design was compact, efficient, and modular for scalability, then it seems it wouldn't be a major concern about subsequent designs or technology (except maybe quantum computers  Tongue).  As I understand it, the FPGA circuits would all be executing the same process in many parallel paths within the circuitry anyway. Scaling it simply by some modular means seems most attainable from a layman's viewpoint.
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
June 12, 2011, 03:31:36 AM
#24
Quote
Yes, it would be a risky investment of capital and time for sure.  

Yeah, ASIC would probably be pretty steep. I don't have any experience with it, but I imagine...

FPGA is really cheap to get going, on the other hand, if you have the skills. The first prototype is gonna cost me $500. I'm soldering it in a $30 dollar toaster oven  Smiley  And I plan on selling small batches, maybe 5-6 a week, just to make a modest profit. Someday maybe it will be bigger than that, we'll see

What are the specs of your first prototype? What do you see the specs of your 5-6 a week being, and at what cost? Would a larger upfront purchase of parts yield you a significant cost savings?
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
June 12, 2011, 03:25:43 AM
#23
Quote
Yes, it would be a risky investment of capital and time for sure.   

Yeah, ASIC would probably be pretty steep. I don't have any experience with it, but I imagine...

FPGA is really cheap to get going, on the other hand, if you have the skills. The first prototype is gonna cost me $500. I'm soldering it in a $30 dollar toaster oven  Smiley  And I plan on selling small batches, maybe 5-6 a week, just to make a modest profit. Someday maybe it will be bigger than that, we'll see.

I may be looking for some help with this, down the road. This might be too early to even think about, but I'm gonna be busy soon.  So, if it works and takes off, I could use some assembly help
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
June 12, 2011, 03:22:38 AM
#22
Um I haven't done any math yet. I'm just thinking in concepts. Long term, obviously, efficiency is gonna trump raw hashing power. The less efficient miners are gonna start dropping out.

Can I copy what you came up with? That's good.

I'm not an FPGA person, but have a few questions that might help get a trajectory on all this...
Are logic cells and LUT's equivalent in quanity? That is, do they come one for one within an FPGA board?
What number of logic cells do you think is need to acquire 100MH/s?

Finally...

Do you have any idea's on the actual costs of these below items? To include the super cluster?
I can not find any pricing information:

http://www.picocomputing.com/ex_series.html

http://www.linera.com.tr/temsilcilikler/pico-computing

BTW: I think you made a very valid point earlier about the fact that even though the boards would cost more, that you could run them with less hardware. Many USB ports can be run from one computer (even with a GPU or two on the MoBo  Cheesy). The extra cost may be saved, in part at least, by the non need to purchase extra fans, larger power supplies, mother boards....etc... not to mention the power savings with FPGA. A comprehensive cost analysis would be beneficial. Knowing what hidden costs might exist in scaling would be interesting. For example, any costs to modify electrical or coolings systems for expanding to more GPU rigs.
newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
June 12, 2011, 03:01:28 AM
#21
Quote

What do you think the cost to develop a commercial FPGA and/or ASIC solution would cost? Perhaps some engineers should put their heads together and come up with realistic specs, an open source design, and the software to run it. I don't see that happening, and unless someone decides to invest a few hundred thousand dollars into specialized equipment, and the time to sell specialty FPGA and/or ASIC Mining devices, I don't think it's going to happen.

Once a fully working and bug free FPGA design is ready it will take this to move to full ASIC production.  (from what I understand about it so far).

cost - $200k - $1.5MM
time - 6 - 18 months

So you have to find an investor who believes in Bitcoin enough to trust your estimates for difficulty in 6-18 months, and you'd have to ensure that you weren't late to market with a unit or units that were already behind the curve, right?

If Bitcoin continues down the road it's on, then yes - there will be dedicated ASIC bitmining units sold commercially. However, it's a long road from here to there.

Yes, it would be a risky investment of capital and time for sure.   
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
June 12, 2011, 02:55:49 AM
#20
Quote

What do you think the cost to develop a commercial FPGA and/or ASIC solution would cost? Perhaps some engineers should put their heads together and come up with realistic specs, an open source design, and the software to run it. I don't see that happening, and unless someone decides to invest a few hundred thousand dollars into specialized equipment, and the time to sell specialty FPGA and/or ASIC Mining devices, I don't think it's going to happen.

Once a fully working and bug free FPGA design is ready it will take this to move to full ASIC production.  (from what I understand about it so far).

cost - $200k - $1.5MM
time - 6 - 18 months

So you have to find an investor who believes in Bitcoin enough to trust your estimates for difficulty in 6-18 months, and you'd have to ensure that you weren't late to market with a unit or units that were already behind the curve, right?

If Bitcoin continues down the road it's on, then yes - there will be dedicated ASIC bitmining units sold commercially. However, it's a long road from here to there.
newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
June 12, 2011, 02:48:22 AM
#19
Quote

What do you think the cost to develop a commercial FPGA and/or ASIC solution would cost? Perhaps some engineers should put their heads together and come up with realistic specs, an open source design, and the software to run it. I don't see that happening, and unless someone decides to invest a few hundred thousand dollars into specialized equipment, and the time to sell specialty FPGA and/or ASIC Mining devices, I don't think it's going to happen.

Once a fully working and bug free FPGA design is ready it will take this to move to full ASIC production.  (from what I understand about it so far).

cost - $200k - $1.5MM
time - 6 - 18 months
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
June 12, 2011, 02:45:12 AM
#18
It does not matter how much computation power you got per electricity consumption.

You are wrong. When the electrical cost exceeds the bitcoin value, many will stop mining, causing a difficulty drop. The price/difficulty will eventually settle at a point where the average miner breaks even.

FPGA and ASIC miners will be the only ones making a profit.

which is exactly my point.

what prevents those FPGA/ASIC miners to get more of those things to increase their profits? And so the race begins.

Of course if only the chosen few will own those things they can have pretty small total power consumption but does that not defeat the purpose of a bitcoin as a system that is supposed to be p2p, decentralized system where everybody is supposed to take part in transaction processing? those chosen few with FPGA/ASICs will be the real centers of all transaction processing.

Or if general public gets to buy those FPGA/ASIC then again the one who owns the most of them, wins.

Unless of course the price of generated bitcoins no longer pays for the electricity spent... in which case we get decline in mining, difficulty adjustment, resume in mining, cycle repeats.
newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
June 12, 2011, 02:44:55 AM
#17
Quote
Agreed. However, whatever that solution is, it's going to have to be a widely available technology, very likely with an alternate use (like ATI GPUs) or else there will be no other option. Also, unless the BTCUSD exchange rate stabilizes, and more merchants start accepting BTC, there's not much likelihood that any FPGA or ASIC commercialization projects will ever exist for the Bitcoin community. It will be limited to hobbyists.

Not true.  A dedicated mining board with ASICs will sell like hot cakes.  People will make huge arrays and farms and provide the mining power that the bitcoin system needs.  

It will be a business decision to buy them, they will pay for themselves in X weeks/months then they will have a lifetime of x months or years to make money.  After that they can be thrown away.  

Many are treating GPUs the same way now.  If you bought 50 6990 cards today, and they paid for themselves in 2 months.  Would you care about selling them on ebay in 2 years for $50?  Or would you just run them till they die or become obsolete (or no longer profitable)?
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
June 12, 2011, 02:42:05 AM
#16
Good discussion on the economics of FPGA/ASIC mining...

http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=2362.0
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
June 12, 2011, 02:38:46 AM
#15
It does not matter how much computation power you got per electricity consumption.

You are wrong. When the electrical cost exceeds the bitcoin value, many will stop mining, causing a difficulty drop. The price/difficulty will eventually settle at a point where the average miner breaks even.

FPGA and ASIC miners will be the only ones making a profit.

What do you think the cost to develop a commercial FPGA and/or ASIC solution would cost? Perhaps some engineers should put their heads together and come up with realistic specs, an open source design, and the software to run it. I don't see that happening, and unless someone decides to invest a few hundred thousand dollars into specialized equipment, and the time to sell specialty FPGA and/or ASIC Mining devices, I don't think it's going to happen.

Where's the incentive for anyone to go down this road right now? In 3 months? Even if difficulty drops (it's not going to), there's too many people who will be willing to deal with the heat of GPU mining, and not enough people unified enough to develop an alternative that's viable for the Bitcoin community, at least as far as MH/s per $ goes.
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
June 12, 2011, 02:38:19 AM
#14
ASIC is the way to go.

FPGA will always have a steep price point, cheap ASIC will be the one to make a dent in GPU's hashes.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
June 12, 2011, 02:31:56 AM
#13
It does not matter how much computation power you got per electricity consumption.

You are wrong. When the electrical cost exceeds the bitcoin value, many will stop mining, causing a difficulty drop. The price/difficulty will eventually settle at a point where the average miner breaks even.

FPGA and ASIC miners will be the only ones making a profit.
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
June 12, 2011, 02:27:44 AM
#12
to save power? are you serious??

do you not understand that the computation power in bitcoin is used as the matter to compensate for growing computational capacity?

definitely I was not clear enough.

ok to say it in other words. It does not matter how much computation power you got per electricity consumption. eventually, to catch up, every other miner will get the same rig as you and then the only way to compete will be to increase the number of those rigs you got. hence the power consumption will grow to previous level because of rapid difficulty growth that is used to consume any computational power you can throw to it. No matter how much you optimize, bitcoin generation will always consume as much power as miners can put their hands on.

this is somewhat like the arms race... and it's just as pointless. but it can't be stopped. this is an intrinsic flaw of the bitcoin design unfortunately.

Yes, eventually low power, high density miners will win and GPU miners will lose out.  How many 4x6990 power hungry mining rigs can one put in a normal house?  how to deal with the heat?  the noise? 

How many cool, efficient and silent FPGA boards can be run? 

There will be a new technology and a tipping point to make GPU obsolete.  It may not be today, it may not be fpga, maybe it is ASIC?  but the day will come and power and efficiency will be a major factor.

Agreed. However, whatever that solution is, it's going to have to be a widely available technology, very likely with an alternate use (like ATI GPUs) or else there will be no other option. Also, unless the BTCUSD exchange rate stabilizes, and more merchants start accepting BTC, there's not much likelihood that any FPGA or ASIC commercialization projects will ever exist for the Bitcoin community. It will be limited to hobbyists.
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