anyone else discouraged? | Bitcointalksearch.org

gigabytecoin

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 252

Quote from: rezin777 on June 08, 2011, 11:36:47 AM

Quote from: NO_SLAVE on June 08, 2011, 11:34:40 AM

well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen.

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand. The float on BTC is so small that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is. Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.

It seems like there is a huge opportunity for someone to provide an easy way to buy Bitcoins and make a ton of money from it.

It is. And when that opportunity comes to fruition... there will be a large increase in price.

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: MoonShadow on June 08, 2011, 01:51:22 PM

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 01:31:37 PM

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 01:21:36 PM

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 12:54:50 PM

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust. i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.

Maybe I didnt express myself clearly with my e-mail analogy.
letters do a specific job. pick one. saying happy b-day, wish you were here, paying my visa with a check, etc.
I am not talking about the papers value. I'm talking about the thing called a letter.

e-mail can do the same job. it's useful to humans just as a paper letter is. it gets the job done (be it, happy bday, wish your were here, visa, etc) only faster, with less energy and ressources.

Look at it this way. If I took away e-mail tomorrow. how much money would a company pay me to reinstate e-mail in the business world?

So if I took away Nike's capacity to e-mail. it could go back to paper letters to malaysia, long distance phone calls and the fax machine.
How much money do you think nike would be willing to pay me to reinstate e-mail within their company.

e-mail has enourmous value. Even though I can't touch it, see it, hug it, get it to give me a bj, etc. Binary has value. 1000100010111100101010010111100001001001001

This is a wonderful analogy, and if you were willing, I'd suggest posting this argument to the Mises forum. There are a lot of people there that are wholely against bitcoin because it's not backed by anything, and I've actually had some tell me that fiat is still better!

theyll never go for it and the argument will be time,labor,capital and production.i believe in the concept of bitcoin. but there is absolutely no way the goverment or large think tanks aren't all over this. maybe im a progressive austrian lol

rezin777

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 01:08:11 PM

i got a little defensive about silver, my apologies.. but common people like me will have to use USD to buy bitcoins in the short term to medium term. not everyone knows how to build a website or have things to trade for BTC.. as for the relationship for the dollar goes; say china dumps 3 trillion or we print another 1-2 trill, commodities triple in 3-5 months. silver,grain,cotton,oil etc. i dont think people wont have the cash to buy btc or would want to when their worried about food,gas an other bills that you cant atm use to pay for. this whole model depends on new people coming into the market wanting the generated BTCs.. if this breaks out into interpersonal transactions on the spot, i see it being a good means of currency "IF" easily convertible for day to day goods. seems to me most that are buying now are just tiring to make some fast cash. you guys that got in at .10$-5$ even 15$ are sitting pretty. and should take some profit cause it could all come down at any moment if someone wanted to destroy this model.. im sure MIT and the gov are all over this.

No need to apologize! Just a friendly discussion here.

I understand the concern you are posing about the dollar. I think the only answer to that is to have your ducks in a row before buying any store of value. You should have beans, bullets, bullion and bitcoin, in that order! In other words, don't buy bitcoin, or bullion, until you have food and other necessities taken care of first. If for some reason you had to change your location at a moments notice, it's pretty useful to have a large store of value on a USB key. And again, BTC doesn't depend on the dollar. Sure you might need to spend your USD to get BTC, but then what? If the dollar falls, you already have your BTC. Convert it to a more stable currency or trade it directly. In your scenario BTC is even more valuable in my mind. If things get so bad that access to the internet becomes a problem, well you have your bullion as well. Diversity is always important.

MoonShadow

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1010

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 01:31:37 PM

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 01:21:36 PM

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 12:54:50 PM

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust. i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.

Maybe I didnt express myself clearly with my e-mail analogy.
letters do a specific job. pick one. saying happy b-day, wish you were here, paying my visa with a check, etc.
I am not talking about the papers value. I'm talking about the thing called a letter.

e-mail can do the same job. it's useful to humans just as a paper letter is. it gets the job done (be it, happy bday, wish your were here, visa, etc) only faster, with less energy and ressources.

Look at it this way. If I took away e-mail tomorrow. how much money would a company pay me to reinstate e-mail in the business world?

So if I took away Nike's capacity to e-mail. it could go back to paper letters to malaysia, long distance phone calls and the fax machine.
How much money do you think nike would be willing to pay me to reinstate e-mail within their company.

e-mail has enourmous value. Even though I can't touch it, see it, hug it, get it to give me a bj, etc. Binary has value. 1000100010111100101010010111100001001001001

This is a wonderful analogy, and if you were willing, I'd suggest posting this argument to the Mises forum. There are a lot of people there that are wholely against bitcoin because it's not backed by anything, and I've actually had some tell me that fiat is still better!

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: NO_SLAVE on June 08, 2011, 01:06:56 PM

rtcw,

you and I are in the same boat. I am a holder of bullion and US coin in silver.
Late june will be the time to back up the truck in silver. I also was trying to
get some ounces out of a BTC trade. Going into the end of the year I think btc and silver will be nuts.
So frustrating that I was trying to buy at 9. No cigar. No silver.

yes sir. totally agree.

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 01:31:37 PM

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 01:21:36 PM

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 12:54:50 PM

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust. i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.

Maybe I didnt express myself clearly with my e-mail analogy.
letters do a specific job. pick one. saying happy b-day, wish you were here, paying my visa with a check, etc.
I am not talking about the papers value. I'm talking about the thing called a letter.

e-mail can do the same job. it's useful to humans just as a paper letter is. it gets the job done (be it, happy bday, wish your were here, visa, etc) only faster, with less energy and ressources.

Look at it this way. If I took away e-mail tomorrow. how much money would a company pay me to reinstate e-mail in the business world?

So if I took away Nike's capacity to e-mail. it could go back to paper letters to malaysia, long distance phone calls and the fax machine.
How much money do you think nike would be willing to pay me to reinstate e-mail within their company.

e-mail has enourmous value. Even though I can't touch it, see it, hug it, get it to give me a bj, etc. Binary has value. 1000100010111100101010010111100001001001001

point taken bother. =)

ninjacob

newbie

Activity: 52

Merit: 0

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 01:21:36 PM

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 12:54:50 PM

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust. i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.

Maybe I didnt express myself clearly with my e-mail analogy.
letters do a specific job. pick one. saying happy b-day, wish you were here, paying my visa with a check, etc.
I am not talking about the papers value. I'm talking about the thing called a letter.

e-mail can do the same job. it's useful to humans just as a paper letter is. it gets the job done (be it, happy bday, wish your were here, visa, etc) only faster, with less energy and ressources.

Look at it this way. If I took away e-mail tomorrow. how much money would a company pay me to reinstate e-mail in the business world?

So if I took away Nike's capacity to e-mail. it could go back to paper letters to malaysia, long distance phone calls and the fax machine.
How much money do you think nike would be willing to pay me to reinstate e-mail within their company.

e-mail has enourmous value. Even though I can't touch it, see it, hug it, get it to give me a bj, etc. Binary has value. 1000100010111100101010010111100001001001001

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: ninjacob on June 08, 2011, 12:54:50 PM

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

its a double edged sword man. no gov control or back by trust. i would argue that an email to grandma has no value as cause cant trade it for a bitcoin, or silver. an individual would have to see the value in said email and be willing to pay you upon an agreed price. i dont know of anyone that is buying emails between two individuals. unless there are of some pictures of naked chicks or grandmas secret chicken soup recipe.

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: rezin777 on June 08, 2011, 12:34:23 PM

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 12:18:49 PM

i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.

You can buy Bitcoins for the same reason. Yes, they are inflating now, but it's a known rate and it will end. As far as trusting the dollar, what does that have to do with Bitcoin?

i got a little defensive about silver, my apologies.. but common people like me will have to use USD to buy bitcoins in the short term to medium term. not everyone knows how to build a website or have things to trade for BTC.. as for the relationship for the dollar goes; say china dumps 3 trillion or we print another 1-2 trill, commodities triple in 3-5 months. silver,grain,cotton,oil etc. i dont think people wont have the cash to buy btc or would want to when their worried about food,gas an other bills that you cant atm use to pay for. this whole model depends on new people coming into the market wanting the generated BTCs.. if this breaks out into interpersonal transactions on the spot, i see it being a good means of currency "IF" easily convertible for day to day goods. seems to me most that are buying now are just tiring to make some fast cash. you guys that got in at .10$-5$ even 15$ are sitting pretty. and should take some profit cause it could all come down at any moment if someone wanted to destroy this model.. im sure MIT and the gov are all over this.

NO_SLAVE

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

rtcw,

you and I are in the same boat. I am a holder of bullion and US coin in silver.
Late june will be the time to back up the truck in silver. I also was trying to
get some ounces out of a BTC trade. Going into the end of the year I think btc and silver will be nuts.
So frustrating that I was trying to buy at 9. No cigar. No silver.

ninjacob

newbie

Activity: 52

Merit: 0

I also consider myself an Austrian. And as weird as it seems, I think the austrian economists don't realize that bitcoin has all the criteria they talk about for sound money. Bitcoin is austrian but the austrians don't see it yet!

You would agree that everything Murray Rothbard says in "What has government done to our money?" applies to Bitcoin right? EXCEPT for the main thing he always says. A currency must have intrinsic value before becoming a currency.

I think bitcoin DOES have intrinsic value. What is throwing them off is the whole digital part. Maybe it's because we are obsessed with commodities like gold and silver.

But look at it this way. A written paper letter is something physical. It surves it's purpose (to tell Grand-ma happy b-day or whatever). It has real value.
A e-mail serves the same purpose. E-mail has real value. But it's digital!
I think it's just that our brains havent evolved with computers (no shit haha) and it feels strange to say that a binary code can be valuable.

I order for the austrian critics of bitcoin to be right in regards to that criteria not being met to qualify as sound money, they would have to make the case that an e-mail has no value.

rezin777

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 12:18:49 PM

i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.

You can buy Bitcoins for the same reason. Yes, they are inflating now, but it's a known rate and it will end. As far as trusting the dollar, what does that have to do with Bitcoin?

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: rezin777 on June 08, 2011, 12:01:47 PM

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 11:51:08 AM

eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...

You could say the same about silver and gold. Value is subjective. Do you buy gold because of it's industrial properties or because it is a store of value that you trust other people will recognize? Same for silver.

i buy gold and silver cause they cant be printed or created out of thin air. i believe in the silver story as a protection of wealth, im not a day trader or an investor an have no interest in doing them.value is subjective to the individual yes.but what do you think is going to happened if china dont "trust" our dollar and dump 3 trillion into the market?? again, its all about trust..

until interest rates out pace the real inflation ill be buying silver an gold.

rezin777

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 11:51:08 AM

eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...

You could say the same about silver and gold. Value is subjective. Do you buy gold because of it's industrial properties or because it is a store of value that you trust other people will recognize? Same for silver.

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: rezin777 on June 08, 2011, 11:36:47 AM

Quote from: NO_SLAVE on June 08, 2011, 11:34:40 AM

well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen.

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand. The float on BTC is so small that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is. Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.

It seems like there is a huge opportunity for someone to provide an easy way to buy Bitcoins and make a ton of money from it.

eah, as a student of austrian economics for the last 4 years this goes against the number one principle, an thats is its backed by nothing by trust. im just going to arbitras this to get more silver. ive gotten 20btc this morning @23 an hope to gain 40 oz out of it. a lot of these guys on here dont understand economics. they just say its rare, its valuable. which is true if people want it, an they do...

i hooked up with a guy on ebay to sell me some via paypal as debt owed btw. ill send you his email if youd like to grab some in that method.

triforcelink

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: tymothy on June 08, 2011, 10:33:53 AM

Quote

millions of people out there who aren't informed as you are now.

billions

+ over 9000

rezin777

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: NO_SLAVE on June 08, 2011, 11:34:40 AM

well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen.

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand. The float on BTC is so small that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is. Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.

It seems like there is a huge opportunity for someone to provide an easy way to buy Bitcoins and make a ton of money from it.

NO_SLAVE

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

well, I can tell you that many people are pissed off about the ability to get money into the system, mtgox or any other exchange.
dwolla sucks, liberty reserve sucks, bank wire sucks, it all blows, the private markets are lurky and murky . Ive been trying to buy since 9 and have witnessed a 20 point move. That is aggravating to say the least, considering its all upon the middlemen, which is the whole point of establishing BTC, get rid of these controlling middlemen.

The craziness, all goes back to what I said earlier, that people here brushed off or didnt understand. The float on BTC is so small that the volitility on BTC will be insane. and it is. Programmers are not economists and I dont feel that the community understands the dynamics of markets, float, volume etc. Ive been a trader in various professional markets for 16 years, and I tell you now, the insanity is just beginning because of the very limited float. MTGox is in over their head, and will become more so as things proceed. My guess is that the mob in russia is attempting to corner the market and with this float it wont be that hard. There are so many variables here, that the community doesnt understand, but I think the education is starting.

tymothy

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: rtcw on June 08, 2011, 10:43:13 AM

yeah i get it, just wish i was able to get more. buy the time i get paid next week they could be out of my price range as i buy 10 oz of silver bi-weekly.

...you can always buy fractions of a coin.

rtcw

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

yeah i get it, just wish i was able to get more. buy the time i get paid next week they could be out of my price range as i buy 10 oz of silver bi-weekly.

Topic: anyone else discouraged? (Read 3728 times)