Topic: Anyone here from Germany? What exactly are your electricity costs? - page 2. (Read 531 times)
August 22, 2022, 05:04:01 AM
I am not from germany regarding expensive electricity which is not surprising, considering that Germany is a developed country with high taxes and living costs. As far as I know that on a macro scale, historically, Europe has simply lacked the energy flowing through Eastern Europe. But it seems fair to say that German electricity is relatively expensive compared to the US.
August 22, 2022, 04:27:02 AM
Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth.
Natural gas isn't scarce. It's still very cheap in many countries. Transportation is what gets you, and hydrogen would be no different even if it would be abundent somewhere (which it isn't).
August 22, 2022, 03:42:25 AM
Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.
I hope you don't forget that this situation is temporary. It' s currently the governments that compensate the difference by indemnifying the energy companies (as you surely know).I searched on google what is the source of Germany's electricity and found out that they mainly use coal similar to our country.
Natural gas is used for more than just electricity production, and they wanted to get rid of coal because of (not very realistic) climate goals.Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth.
Natural gas isn't scarce. It's still very cheap in many countries. Transportation is what gets you, and hydrogen would be no different even if it would be abundent somewhere (which it isn't). August 22, 2022, 03:25:21 AM
And to the user who mentioned the need to switch to hydrogen:
yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia
Yep. But there is a caveat - hydrogen from Russia is much easier to replace with hydrogen from another source, because hydrogen is one of the most widespread chemical elements on Earth. It can be hydrogen from different sources, marked with different colors depending on the type of generation and the degree of its environmental friendliness (green, blue, orange, brown, etc.), but it is still a flammable, odorless and colorless volatile gas that can be be used as an energy source without astronomical infrastructure investments. Hydrogen has no nationality.yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia
Besides, the European Union still has no other strategy. And frantically trying to plug holes in the energy supply is not a strategy.
August 22, 2022, 01:11:05 AM
I searched on google what is the source of Germany's electricity and found out that they mainly use coal similar to our country. Here in ours, electricity costs have also gone more than double compared from previous years that the electricity bill of a regular household is 25% of a minimum-wage earner salary. I think the conflict between Ukraine and Russia has something to do with this issue because Russia is one of the largest coal producer in the world.
August 22, 2022, 12:14:14 AM
Couple of days ago Germans PPI was released and it was something like 5% but it wasn’t per year it was per month. So it seems these energy prices are having a huge toll.
I wonder what will happen with large auto companies like BMW and VW. How will they be able to sell vehicles if their PPI is so much higher. Most likely won’t be able to compete with other brands stationed elsewhere in the world.
I wonder what will happen with large auto companies like BMW and VW. How will they be able to sell vehicles if their PPI is so much higher. Most likely won’t be able to compete with other brands stationed elsewhere in the world.
August 21, 2022, 07:35:37 PM
Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.
I hope you don't forget that this situation is temporary. It' s currently the governments that compensate the difference by indemnifying the energy companies (as you surely know).
It is obvious that these compensations will end sooner or later (in December in my country but it should be the same in the rest of Europe). What will happen then? Full price and right on time when the winter will begin. Jackpot! Don't be surprised if the price increases X3
just a price example from here https://imgur.com/a/qAHD15Q
about 0.37€ per Kwh. Great deal, heating will become for the rich
by the way, in my country, we pay a tax based on taxes (a tax of taxes). how crazy is it?
And to the user who mentioned the need to switch to hydrogen:
yes, it was the plan in Europe...with hydrogen coming from...Russia
August 21, 2022, 06:59:53 PM
They can get alternatives, there is also the obvious of just using up less gas. Many european countries have been forced to switch to biogas previously, they can use it now though its not as convenient or easy to get hold of as freshly delivered natural gas. Theres all kinds of alternatives, mostly they wont be as efficient or cleanly burning. I always thought it was quite dull not to realize gas is a clean fuel compared to the majority available, its just leaning on Russia was a mistake obvious every year for the last 22 years and it was ignored.
Energy security was considered as a problem a long time ago and then they went to sleep on it, even after 2014 not considering of how that situation can spread. Its a failure of governance and good strategic planning, nobody wants to state that and admit they failed. I hope they do admit and correct for future purposes but I think Germany can get past this and others, at some cost.
Energy security was considered as a problem a long time ago and then they went to sleep on it, even after 2014 not considering of how that situation can spread. Its a failure of governance and good strategic planning, nobody wants to state that and admit they failed. I hope they do admit and correct for future purposes but I think Germany can get past this and others, at some cost.
August 21, 2022, 05:22:06 PM
You can discuss for a long time how much the price has risen, how much, how much, how to heat the house - with lighters or firewood, wear 3 sweaters or 2 fur coats. The essence does not change, Germany and some EU countries, you just need to realize that once a mistake was made. The error is very serious. And it needs to be corrected. These mistakes are akin to serious diseases - if you deny it, and continue to live as you lived and not be treated - I think everyone understands the ending. Now they are at a crossroads - to continue to ignore the problem (illness) or to recognize and start correcting it fundamentally (to be treated). I believe in reason. And I am sure that in 2-3 years the EU will forget that there was once such a supplier of gas and oil as Russia.
August 21, 2022, 12:06:48 PM
The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.
Roughly half of Germans use gas to heat their homes, so yes, you're correct - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-stockpiling-wood-in-fear-of-gas-shortage/a-62601419It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.
Wood, or gas from somewhere else, or set your lighter on fire if you want, burn your clothes, I don't care how terrible it gets for Germans or even me, I just want Russia to realize that if they keep attacking Ukraine, and do not give the lands back, they are going to be shut off from West and that would mean a lot of profit lost to them in the near future and it will only go worse from there which means they will be financially getting terrible in the long run.
August 20, 2022, 09:18:11 AM
It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.
You cannot sit on two chairs at the same time (although some try) and at the same time support sanctions and import Russian gas. The entire EU had a choice, to turn its head to the other side and pretend that nothing important is happening, or to stand firmly towards Russia, even if it means paying dearly for it. All those stories about someone freezing next winter have already become ridiculous because there will be enough gas from other sources, although the price for the end consumer will be much higher.
I can't speak for the average EU resident, but considering that my country experienced a similar war as Ukraine now, and that they were one of the first countries to recognize our independence, I give them full support, even if it means that I have to pay more for electricity or gas - human lives and survival have no price.
August 20, 2022, 04:26:26 AM
10x more seems a bit excessive and I really hope this is not going to be the case.
ANWB has Dutch electricity prices (market prices) per day/week/month/year for the past years, excluding taxes.This is 3 years ago (August 2019):
This is now (August 2022):
I'll highlight a day:
August 19, 2019 (a Monday):
August 19, 2022 (a Friday):
That's a 16-fold increase on August 19 in just 3 years.
I'm pretty sure our prices are very similar to German prices.
Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be.
Sorry, this 17 days old post is outdated. Natural gas is now 20 times more expensive than it used to be.Of course, for consumers the difference is less, because energy was always highly taxed and there's now even a temporary tax reduction. But still, the everage new energy contract now costs €4000 per year more than a year ago. And this data is already old, because gas prices went up further.
August 07, 2022, 11:04:58 AM
More precisely, a mixture of 80% hydrogen and 20% natural gas (because hydrogen itself is a very volatile gas). For this mixture, the existing infrastructure of gas pipelines and underground storage facilities can be operated without changes. Moreover, two years ago the European Union published a hydrogen strategy for a climate-neutral Europe. Of course, the covid-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine have pretty much confused the cards, but the EU has no other strategy on this issue.
I mean if they could do that, they could definitely find a supplement that would help, but we still need to go with the renewable route and if we do not then we are going to have a trouble. All the things we need gas for, should be turning into electricity, maybe "some" stuff won't but it needs to be done and it needs to be done right now.I know that it is not going to be an easy task, but finding supplements right now is not the solution neither. Hydrogen or not, it is going to take a ton of money to replace, and when we have something much better with solar, water wind, and so forth, changing gas needs to electricity needs would be a smarter and easier transition.
August 04, 2022, 08:05:16 AM
Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.
Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.
Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.
I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).
I will give, for reference, the most specialized and accurate information available to me on nuclear energy. This article includes very useful information - IAEA reporting in the form of a map of the distribution of uranium ore deposits.
This article is in Ukrainian, but everyone can easily translate it into their native language.
https://www.uatom.org/uranovi-obyekty
A little digression - for fans of the fantasy "about the ban of the Russian language in Ukraine" - on this state site, in the upper right corner, there is a language switcher, there is an English version and ... including a version in Russian
So, the largest deposits of uranium ores in Europe are ... in Ukraine!
Yes, someone will say - mining is mining, but enrichment, without it, nuclear power plants will not work on uranium ore! Of course I agree - it is, everything is true!
It is true that the distribution of ore deposits, that processing, none of these factors make Russia a monopolist, and, accordingly, there is no dependence. Well, if you do not listen to propaganda, but rely on reality.
The only thing I still agree with is that only those who decided, without thinking, to buy Russian nuclear power plants, fell into a trap and, accordingly, become dependent on their supplies from Russia
The rest of the world uses fuel produced by the countries of the real leaders in the production of nuclear fuel. And the first three places look like this:
Kazakhstan (41% of world supplies in 2020)
Australia (13%)
Namibia (11%)
Well, on whom does the world of nuclear power plants depend more? It even depends on Namibia more than on Russia
Oh, and one more factor, about the prospects: "Some Member States are showing particular interest in the thorium fuel cycle, which can open the way to a sustainable build-up of nuclear power capacity. The main incentives for the use of thorium are its abundance in nature, inertness and better properties compared to uranium, higher burnup, suitability for use in fuel cycles with high conversion rates, and inherent resistance to proliferation Some countries are conducting R&D aimed at future use of thorium in addition to uranium as a main source of fuel or instead of him."
https://www.iaea.org/topics/uranium-production
August 04, 2022, 07:13:21 AM
The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.
Roughly half of Germans use gas to heat their homes, so yes, you're correct - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-stockpiling-wood-in-fear-of-gas-shortage/a-62601419
It amazes me that Germany is resorting to stockpiling wood for the upcoming winter because they would rather freeze to death than utilize Russian energy. They're firing up coal and nuclear power plants in response in addition to stockpiling wood. I hope they're prepared.
August 04, 2022, 06:30:31 AM
Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.
Interesting argument you raise, I had not heard it until now.
So what do you think could be the solution for Europe to have enough energy supply?
legendary
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August 04, 2022, 05:54:10 AM
Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.
Interesting argument you raise, I had not heard it until now.
So what do you think could be the solution for Europe to have enough energy supply?
August 04, 2022, 04:05:22 AM
Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.
Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.
Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.
I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).
August 04, 2022, 03:15:00 AM
For the past few months I’ve been seeing charts and posts about electricity in Germany being extremely expensive. Today I read an article it’s more than 10x expensive than it was between 2010-2020. This can’t be true.
Can someone who lives there verify this?
Can someone who lives there verify this?
10x more seems a bit excessive and I really hope this is not going to be the case. In Germany usually there is a fixed payment at the start of the year to the electricity company. The advancement is based on the consumption of the last year with current prices. This also works with the property managers who usually make their plan for the year during spring/summer to calculate the new utility bills for each year. I haven't received any bill for this year yet, which worries me a bit on how much electricity prices actually increased. The problem with the system in Germany is that it can take up to a year in the worst case for the new cost to be transferred to the customer. From a friend of mine who already received all documents for this year and they adjusted their new budget for this year, the only have a 15% increase in electricity cost. From a colleague who lives a bit further away he told me his bill is up 20% this year.
legendary
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August 04, 2022, 02:50:40 AM
After reading stompix's reply, I reread the thread, and I see that there is a bit of politics being mixed in here that has to do with the war in Ukraine, the more pro-Russian ones trying to emphasise how badly Europe has done on energy policy and others trying to minimise.
I don't know what your friend will pay but I can assure you that in Spain the price is much more expensive than it was a year ago, and I don't think Germany is much better off than us:
Energy bills are soaring in Europe. What are countries doing to help you pay them?
I believe that Europe has to rethink its energy policy and it is going to rethink it, it is going to be forced to do so. To plan for energy cuts because energy policy has been poorly thought out is not a solution.
A friend lives in Frankfurt am Main. 2 bedroom apartment, 5 storey building.
No matter how much someone would like, but the cost of electricity for her is something around 0.35 euros per 1 kW / h. A year ago it was about 0.32 euros per 1Kw/h.
Also, please note that out of the 10% price increase in 2002, compared to 2021, 4% (40% out of 10%) is network fees, that is, money that electricity suppliers must pay to network suppliers.
This is far from fantasies about a 10-fold price increase.
No matter how much someone would like, but the cost of electricity for her is something around 0.35 euros per 1 kW / h. A year ago it was about 0.32 euros per 1Kw/h.
Also, please note that out of the 10% price increase in 2002, compared to 2021, 4% (40% out of 10%) is network fees, that is, money that electricity suppliers must pay to network suppliers.
This is far from fantasies about a 10-fold price increase.
I don't know what your friend will pay but I can assure you that in Spain the price is much more expensive than it was a year ago, and I don't think Germany is much better off than us:
Quote
Electricity wholesale prices have increased in the first quarter of 2022 by 411 per cent in Spain and Portugal, 343 per cent in Greece, 336 per cent in France and 318 per cent in Italy compared to the same period in 2021, according to the European Commission.
Energy bills are soaring in Europe. What are countries doing to help you pay them?
I believe that Europe has to rethink its energy policy and it is going to rethink it, it is going to be forced to do so. To plan for energy cuts because energy policy has been poorly thought out is not a solution.
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