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They're not "now" in place, those laws are from the 80's at least.
This is totally wrong ... do your homework before you come here spouting off about regulations you seem to have little knowledge of.
Topic: Arbitrage with guaranteed profits with Bitcoin-Brokers. - page 2. (Read 12538 times)
This is totally wrong ... do your homework before you come here spouting off about regulations you seem to have little knowledge of.
They're not "now" in place, those laws are from the 80's at least. Not a recent development. There's certain incentives for bitcoin, yes, but there's reality that its going to be a long time, if ever, that you can avoid the need fir banking services. Food. Rent utilities. Getting paid. Sorry, were all stuck with banks for a while.
I like that. A user posted yesterday or the day before about 190 btc being stolen from their wallet. Kapoof. Gone someone breaks into your bank account, its inconvienent, but at the end of the day, you won't lose much, and you'll likely see someone prosecuted. You lose $15-$20k in btc?
"Wow that sucks dude. Why weren't you using a offline wallet?"
If soneone familiar with bitcoin can lose thar muxh, imagine what would happen once less savvy people start usung it? Irreversible e currencies fail just as much as our current system, just I'm different ways.
I like that. A user posted yesterday or the day before about 190 btc being stolen from their wallet. Kapoof. Gone someone breaks into your bank account, its inconvienent, but at the end of the day, you won't lose much, and you'll likely see someone prosecuted. You lose $15-$20k in btc?
"Wow that sucks dude. Why weren't you using a offline wallet?"
If soneone familiar with bitcoin can lose thar muxh, imagine what would happen once less savvy people start usung it? Irreversible e currencies fail just as much as our current system, just I'm different ways.
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You need to fill out paperwork whenever you make daily cash deposits of $10,000 or over, and whether you do or don't, the bank will report to the govt whenever they get $10'000 deposited in cash in a day, or if in a series of transactions over the course of longer than a day. The penalties for not complying are incredibly stiff, can be forfeiture of 50% of the funds. So an account holder whose taking in random cash deposits from all across the country every day, not reporting any of it, they'll feel rich for a time, then they'll get walloped.
If this were true how does a big business like Walmart, Home Depot, Burger King, etc work ... surely they get more than $10k in cash sales in short amounts of time? Are you telling me that Walmart is filling out paperwork everyday they get more than $10 k in 'random' cash sales?
Or is this another case of one law for them and one law for the rest of us?
Why would I make it up?
Yes, Walmart and Burger King likely fill out a currency transaction report everyday. There's nothing illegal or wrong about it so theyed have no problems doing so. It's a simple form. I knew a Guy who owned a used car lot, and he had a pile of them, routinely filled them out whenever someone bought a car and paid cash. And the penalties, again, are pretty still for not doing so...
Banks have to report daily cash transactions of over $10,000 or transactions that they believe are broken up in order to stay below that threshold (structuring). If you're depositing at a branch, they'll tell you. And if you decline the transaction, they'll then report that. But if you're not even at the branch, if people all a ross the country are making small deposits, even if they don't aggregate $10'000 in a single day, but rather over a week or a month, the banks software will certainly notice this's e generate a report. But you need to, too,otherwise thats where penalties can kick In. And you had better make certain that your tax return matches up with the deposits that are hitting your account. (Ie, your account takes in $50,000 in cash deposits, your tax return had better show more than W-2 work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_transaction_report
http://www.bankersonline.com/security/sar/ctrsars_08.html
http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/pdf/CTRPamphletBW.pdf
http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2003/OCC2003-48a.pdf (a 2003 version of the form)
It's best just to let this guy run transaction through his own businesses account. If he's asking users to escrow their coins with him, then he should have customers deposit cash to his account and then transfer your cash back to you from his account.
Really he should do that anyways. All it takes is one dishonest person on this forum deciding to keep a large deposit and there goes his business and reputation.
You have just described why all the incentives are now in place to not use any bank at all for cash handling (regardless of bitcoins) ... p2p cash and bitcoins are clearly simpler and with less friction than all the palaver you describe above.
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You need to fill out paperwork whenever you make daily cash deposits of $10,000 or over, and whether you do or don't, the bank will report to the govt whenever they get $10'000 deposited in cash in a day, or if in a series of transactions over the course of longer than a day. The penalties for not complying are incredibly stiff, can be forfeiture of 50% of the funds. So an account holder whose taking in random cash deposits from all across the country every day, not reporting any of it, they'll feel rich for a time, then they'll get walloped.
If this were true how does a big business like Walmart, Home Depot, Burger King, etc work ... surely they get more than $10k in cash sales in short amounts of time? Are you telling me that Walmart is filling out paperwork everyday they get more than $10 k in 'random' cash sales?
Or is this another case of one law for them and one law for the rest of us?
Why would I make it up?
Yes, Walmart and Burger King likely fill out a currency transaction report everyday. There's nothing illegal or wrong about it so theyed have no problems doing so. It's a simple form. I knew a Guy who owned a used car lot, and he had a pile of them, routinely filled them out whenever someone bought a car and paid cash. And the penalties, again, are pretty still for not doing so...
Banks have to report daily cash transactions of over $10,000 or transactions that they believe are broken up in order to stay below that threshold (structuring). If you're depositing at a branch, they'll tell you. And if you decline the transaction, they'll then report that. But if you're not even at the branch, if people all a ross the country are making small deposits, even if they don't aggregate $10'000 in a single day, but rather over a week or a month, the banks software will certainly notice this's e generate a report. But you need to, too,otherwise thats where penalties can kick In. And you had better make certain that your tax return matches up with the deposits that are hitting your account. (Ie, your account takes in $50,000 in cash deposits, your tax return had better show more than W-2 work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_transaction_report
http://www.bankersonline.com/security/sar/ctrsars_08.html
http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/pdf/CTRPamphletBW.pdf
http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2003/OCC2003-48a.pdf (a 2003 version of the form)
It's best just to let this guy run transaction through his own businesses account. If he's asking users to escrow their coins with him, then he should have customers deposit cash to his account and then transfer your cash back to you from his account.
Really he should do that anyways. All it takes is one dishonest person on this forum deciding to keepa large deposit and there goes his business and reputation.
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You need to fill out paperwork whenever you make daily cash deposits of $10,000 or over, and whether you do or don't, the bank will report to the govt whenever they get $10'000 deposited in cash in a day, or if in a series of transactions over the course of longer than a day. The penalties for not complying are incredibly stiff, can be forfeiture of 50% of the funds. So an account holder whose taking in random cash deposits from all across the country every day, not reporting any of it, they'll feel rich for a time, then they'll get walloped.
If this were true how does a big business like Walmart, Home Depot, Burger King, etc work ... surely they get more than $10k in cash sales in short amounts of time? Are you telling me that Walmart is filling out paperwork everyday they get more than $10 k in 'random' cash sales?
Or is this another case of one law for them and one law for the rest of us?
This is bad news. Sorry guys.
You need to fill out paperwork whenever you make daily cash deposits of $10,000 or over, and whether you do or don't, the bank will report to the govt whenever they get $10'000 deposited in cash in a day, or if in a series of transactions over the course of longer than a day. The penalties for not complying are incredibly stiff, can be forfeiture of 50% of the funds. So an account holder whose taking in random cash deposits from all across the country every day, not reporting any of it, they'll feel rich for a time, then they'll get walloped.
The the OP: too many potential customers is a great problem to have. If you can't borrow funds or obtain investment capital, tighten up your belt and save more money so that it can. Because what you're asking for will land people in hot water, no matter the promise of spectacular returns. You can't structure a business around running all your money through people's individual accounts. Sorry there's so much money left on the table, but we all see the gap between btce and mtgox, no surprise there.
Best solution is to cultivate trust. Have the cash get deposited to your account, then buy btc from us.
If this takes off and people start getting daily deposits of the amount you describe, not moly will their accounts be quickly shuttered and maybe frozen, but you'll end up with many angry customers demanding why they're not getting the bitcoins promised because the "arbitrager" couldn't make good after having their account frozen
Moreover, say customer deposits money int person x's account,person x buys btc and sends to you, and you don't fulfill (send them to customer), when person x asks who they can sue, the lawyer will respond "we'll, who received the money? Oh? Joe Schmoe from bitcointalk? Lets serve papers."
Or, more logically, your customer deposits to jimbobs account. Jimbob keeps the money. Says he had no clue who bitcoin brokers is and assumes his aunt Cindy deposited the money". What then?
I do like hen people come up with business ideas, but this one has so many holes the only way you can't see them is if your rose colored glasses have fogged up completely...
You need to fill out paperwork whenever you make daily cash deposits of $10,000 or over, and whether you do or don't, the bank will report to the govt whenever they get $10'000 deposited in cash in a day, or if in a series of transactions over the course of longer than a day. The penalties for not complying are incredibly stiff, can be forfeiture of 50% of the funds. So an account holder whose taking in random cash deposits from all across the country every day, not reporting any of it, they'll feel rich for a time, then they'll get walloped.
The the OP: too many potential customers is a great problem to have. If you can't borrow funds or obtain investment capital, tighten up your belt and save more money so that it can. Because what you're asking for will land people in hot water, no matter the promise of spectacular returns. You can't structure a business around running all your money through people's individual accounts. Sorry there's so much money left on the table, but we all see the gap between btce and mtgox, no surprise there.
Best solution is to cultivate trust. Have the cash get deposited to your account, then buy btc from us.
If this takes off and people start getting daily deposits of the amount you describe, not moly will their accounts be quickly shuttered and maybe frozen, but you'll end up with many angry customers demanding why they're not getting the bitcoins promised because the "arbitrager" couldn't make good after having their account frozen
Moreover, say customer deposits money int person x's account,person x buys btc and sends to you, and you don't fulfill (send them to customer), when person x asks who they can sue, the lawyer will respond "we'll, who received the money? Oh? Joe Schmoe from bitcointalk? Lets serve papers."
Or, more logically, your customer deposits to jimbobs account. Jimbob keeps the money. Says he had no clue who bitcoin brokers is and assumes his aunt Cindy deposited the money". What then?
I do like hen people come up with business ideas, but this one has so many holes the only way you can't see them is if your rose colored glasses have fogged up completely...
Currency fluctuation is one of the risks I have to account for on localbitcoins, because some buyers will try to exploit price changes in just that fashion.
FYI, you can fix that with better formulas: http://localbitcoins.blogspot.com/2013/06/this-is-first-in-series-of-posts.htmlTouché. I'd read that post before. It's about time to implement it.
Where are you pulling historical market data from -- is it the price on a particular exchange or a weighted average?
Looking at the prices of MtGox at the same time displayed as the timestamp on the bank receipt.
Cool, I was just wondering if you were using MtGox data, or a weighted average, etc.
Where are you pulling historical market data from -- is it the price on a particular exchange or a weighted average?
Looking at the prices of MtGox at the same time displayed as the timestamp on the bank receipt.
Currency fluctuation is one of the risks I have to account for on localbitcoins, because some buyers will try to exploit price changes in just that fashion.
FYI, you can fix that with better formulas: http://localbitcoins.blogspot.com/2013/06/this-is-first-in-series-of-posts.html There are no time delays or anything of the such.
This is how it works:
Buyer is given deposit information.
Buyer goes to bank and makes a deposit.
Timestamp on the deposit slip is matched against the price in the market at the minute the deposit was made to establish the price per BTC. There is no way to abuse the system as you have said.
This is how it works:
Buyer is given deposit information.
Buyer goes to bank and makes a deposit.
Timestamp on the deposit slip is matched against the price in the market at the minute the deposit was made to establish the price per BTC. There is no way to abuse the system as you have said.
That is a very nice feature. Currency fluctuation is one of the risks I have to account for on localbitcoins, because some buyers will try to exploit price changes in just that fashion. Where are you pulling historical market data from -- is it the price on a particular exchange or a weighted average?
I totally understand there has to be some kind of BTC deposit to make this work in a loop. The only thing I am concerned about is depositing 10-20 BTC in someone's account for a long run. If this concern goes away I am ready to join in.
Sayulita, consider very carefully how you structure the confirmations / time allowances.
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
Nice thought actually.
Any buyer can abuse the system doing the following:
1) Order bitcoin.
2) Wait for confirmation on price.
3) Wait an hour or two. If price goes up more than fee, honor the deal. If not, discard the deal without consequence.
There are no time delays or anything of the such.
This is how it works:
Buyer is given deposit information.
Buyer goes to bank and makes a deposit.
Timestamp on the deposit slip is matched against the price in the market at the minute the deposit was made to establish the price per BTC. There is no way to abuse the system as you have said.
Sayulita, consider very carefully how you structure the confirmations / time allowances.
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
Nice thought actually.
Any buyer can abuse the system doing the following:
1) Order bitcoin.
2) Wait for confirmation on price.
3) Wait an hour or two. If price goes up more than fee, honor the deal. If not, discard the deal without consequence.
I admit when I am wrong. In this case, I was wrong. I had my fingers in my ears and was refusing to hear what needed to be heard.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
And to think that I was just about to give up on this conversation as being futile! It takes fortitude and humility to publicly admit error, and for that you've certainly earned my respect. I think that your business, in terms of total bitcoins exchanged and thus net profit, will improve as a result of this realization and subsequent changes. How long will it take you to implement your proposed changes?
They have already been implemented. Transactions today reflected the changes.
I figured as much, since I'd assumed that you're doing manual trade matching. I'm intrigued enough that I may have to give it a try.
I admit when I am wrong. In this case, I was wrong. I had my fingers in my ears and was refusing to hear what needed to be heard.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
And to think that I was just about to give up on this conversation as being futile! It takes fortitude and humility to publicly admit error, and for that you've certainly earned my respect. I think that your business, in terms of total bitcoins exchanged and thus net profit, will improve as a result of this realization and subsequent changes. How long will it take you to implement your proposed changes?
They have already been implemented. Transactions today reflected the changes.
I admit when I am wrong. In this case, I was wrong. I had my fingers in my ears and was refusing to hear what needed to be heard.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
And to think that I was just about to give up on this conversation as being futile! It takes fortitude and humility to publicly admit error, and for that you've certainly earned my respect. I think that your business, in terms of total bitcoins exchanged and thus net profit, will improve as a result of this realization and subsequent changes. How long will it take you to implement your proposed changes?
So a drug dealer deposits cash into my account, which I then launder by purchasing Bitcoin and kicking it back to him by proxy (you). When shit hits the fan, where does the paper trail end? Oh, that's right, my bank account!
Anonymous cash in, negotiable instrument (wire, ACH, whatever) with all MY info out. All for a measly 4% or whatever the margin is now. Ask yourself, why would the OP put it this way:
They want it at whatever price, they don't care. Seems legit. If it sounds to good to be true people...
Anonymous cash in, negotiable instrument (wire, ACH, whatever) with all MY info out. All for a measly 4% or whatever the margin is now. Ask yourself, why would the OP put it this way:
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They don't care about the price, the don't even care about the flavor of the ice cream...the just want whatever you got a whatever price.
They want it at whatever price, they don't care. Seems legit. If it sounds to good to be true people...
Sayulita, consider very carefully how you structure the confirmations / time allowances.
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
Time delays should be minimized because any delay is market risk for one party.
It is true though that since once the deposit is made, the transaction is so to speak "binding", it's at least not a free option to any party (being short these options is my constant worry with anything like this).
The only thing that I am failing to understand is how you think you can tell me what is happening in my own business.
The laws of economics are immutable, no matter what your business is, in the same way that the law of gravitation is the same no matter what country you live in.
That assumption is that there is ever going to be a balance of buyers and sellers at Bitcoin-Brokers.
If there's never going to be a balance, it's because you refuse to raise your prices. Price ceilings which are below the market equilibrium will always, without fail, attract more buyers than sellers. It's an economic fact and it's an unavoidable consequence of holding prices lower than they should be.
For determined individuals, it's entirely possible to wire money internationally and buy up large sums of bitcoins to resell through your service. But doing so comes with risks which cannot be ignored. Unless you can offer high enough profit to justify taking on those risks, I rather doubt you'll be able to attract the supply you want.
I'm speaking not only from an economic perspective, but as an active re-seller of bitcoins. 4% is the bare minimum which I aim to make on any sale, and that's on top of the fees I pay. My average profit is 6-7%, which puts my sell prices at about 8-10% above the spot price on any exchange. And yet I still have a multitude of buyers and probably need to raise my own prices because I ran short on supply just today.
The bottom line is, for 4% it's easy for me to decline your offer. If you were offering at least 6% I could consider it.
Now on the other side of your ice cream truck you have a couple of sellers of ice cream, who don't have anywhere near enough inventory to keep up with your supply. You ask them if there is anything you can do to get more ice cream, and they say "no". They only have a small amount and they are surprised how quickly their ice cream is selling, and if anything they say that they will run out of ice cream soon and not be able to even supply the small amount that they supplied up to this point.
Do you seriously think that, no matter how high the price is, supply will be unaffected? Offer a substantial enough profit margin and I can guarantee that those ice cream suppliers would find ways to get more inventory. The same applies to any product or service.
I admit when I am wrong. In this case, I was wrong. I had my fingers in my ears and was refusing to hear what needed to be heard.
I think it was Winston Churchill who once said
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else"
I suppose this Canadian acted in the same way with respect to this issue. I am sorry. Thank you for helping me see this situation properly.
July 11th Announcement of a material change in the way that Bitcoin-Brokers operates
Effective immediately www.Bitcoin-Brokers.org is changing the manner in which pricing is determined on the site. The website will be adjusted within the next few hours to reflect the changes, yet I wanted to announce the upcoming change here.
Sellers can now list their bitcoin for sale at whatever prices they want. Bitcoin will be available at different prices at different banks. When a buyer requests a quote, they will be presented with the available inventory of bitcoin at each bank, along with the price which each seller needs to be paid. Bitcoin-Broker’s fee paid by the buyer is 2%. There are zero fees paid by the seller of bitcoin.
Buyers will then choose which bank and price they prefer. Bitcoin-Brokers will then forward the necessary deposit instructions to the buyer to complete the transaction. After the buyer has made the cash-only deposit into the seller’s account, the buyer will need to photograph the deposit receipt and upload that receipt to the same support ticket that was used to initiate the transaction as proof of deposit.
The proof of deposit is forwarded to the seller who confirms the deposit has been made into their account via their online banking. The seller then grants Bitcoin-Brokers permission to release the escrowed bitcoin to the buyer and the transaction is complete.
The buyer is always guaranteed to receive bitcoin because each seller needs to place their bitcoin in escrow with Bitcoin-Brokers prior to Bitcoin-Brokers presenting the seller’s bitcoins as available inventory to interested buyers.
FAQ
Q)
The price of bitcoin moves up and down in the open market. At what point through the transaction are prices determined?
A)This depends on two things which are both up to the seller. Sellers have the choice of working with Bitcoin-Brokers in a couple different ways. If sellers simply have a supply of bitcoin which they want converted to cash deposits, then Bitcoin-Brokers will use the time on the buyer’s deposit slip as a point of reference to establish the pricing of the bitcoin.
If the seller is buying the bitcoin directly from an exchange to pair off the order, then Bitcoin-Brokers will allow the seller to take a screenshot of the paired off purchase. The price which is displayed on the screenshot will be used as the price. This will allow the seller to “lock in” a guaranteed profit. The screenshot will also be forwarded to the buyer as a form of receipt, so the buyer has confidence that the price they paid per bitcoin was in fact the actual price at the time it was purchased out of an exchange.
Q)How long after a deposit has been made, and proof of deposit supplied before bitcoin are released to the buyer’s wallet?
A)Bitcoin-Brokers will release the bitcoin as soon as we are given authorization from the seller to do so. We allow the seller until 8:00 am PST the following day to confirm the deposit and authorize the release of bitcoin. In the event that proof of deposit has been submitted, and the seller becomes unavailable for any reason, Bitcoin-Brokers will complete the transaction on behalf of the seller with the seller’s escrowed bitcoin. If this happens, the time on the buyer’s deposit slip will represent the time at which pricing of the bitcoin is determined in all cases.
Q)Do quotes ever expire?
A)Yes. After a buyer has been presented with deposit information, Bitcoin-Brokers needs to place a hold on the seller’s escrowed bitcoin to ensure that we only sell what we can deliver. The buyer has until 6:00 pm their local time to make the deposit and upload the deposit receipt as proof of deposit (2 hour extensions may be granted if the buyer needs extra time to make it to the bank). If the deposit has not been made by the cut-off time, the quote expires, the hold is taken off of the bitcoin, and the bitcoin are available for sale again to a new buyer. As a buyer, if you miss the cut-off time, never attempt to deposit with the same deposit information. Ask Bitcoin-Brokers for a new quote.
Q)I am a repeat buyer. Should I open a new ticket for each new purchase? Or should I re-open the same ticket from the previous transaction?
A)Please re-open the same ticket. That way all conversations regarding all your transactions can be found in one place.
Q)I bank at the same bank as the seller. Can I simply perform an account to account transfer?
A)No. The only form of payment which is acceptable is a cash deposit.
Q)Will Bitcoin-Brokers escrow a private bitcoin purchase where the buyer and seller have already found each other and they simply need a trusted source to use as an escrow service?
A)Yes. The fee for this is 1%. Minimum transaction size for these transactions are $1,000. There are no maximum sized transactions.
Q)As a seller, can I ask for my bitcoin back?
A)Yes. Your bitcoin can be returned at any time. There is a 1% fee to return bitcoin.
Q)Are there any minimum transactions values?
A)The minimum transaction amount at Bitcoin-Brokers is $100.
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'm speaking not only from an economic perspective, but as an active re-seller of bitcoins. 4% is the bare minimum which I aim to make on any sale, and that's on top of the fees I pay. My average profit is 6-7%, which puts my sell prices at about 8-10% above the spot price on any exchange. And yet I still have a multitude of buyers and probably need to raise my own prices because I ran short on supply just today.
The bottom line is, for 4% it's easy for me to decline your offer. If you were offering at least 6% I could consider it.
The bottom line is, for 4% it's easy for me to decline your offer. If you were offering at least 6% I could consider it.
All the hiss and wind and basically you're just angling for a bigger cut of the action ... I bet you make a good haggler in the bazaar?
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