Are Bitcoins Securities Under U.S. Law? - page 2.

jimbobway

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Quote from: cbeast on February 07, 2012, 12:13:53 PM

Quote from: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on February 07, 2012, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

A lawyer argues here: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2011/06/bitcoins-wahrung-oder-ware/wettbewerbsrecht/strafrecht/rechtsanwalt/verkehrsrecht/ that Bitcoin is a commodity according to German law.

I think of commodities as things that can be put into buckets, currencies that can be put into pockets, and contracts that can be put into file folders. If you were to memorize a private key and then destroy it, it becomes only a thought which can only be expressed. Therefor Bitcoin is speech.

In theory, a small scale account ledger can be created between 3 people which could be memorized. There could only be three "thought coins" and the 3 people in the system could memorize who owns which coins.

Bitcoin just scales this thought experiment up massively, but it it just requires computers to memorize who owns how many bitcoins.

Edit: How would one argue the bitcoin account ledger is different from a bank account ledger? Is the bank account ledger also speech? I am thinking probably not.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on February 07, 2012, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

A lawyer argues here: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2011/06/bitcoins-wahrung-oder-ware/wettbewerbsrecht/strafrecht/rechtsanwalt/verkehrsrecht/ that Bitcoin is a commodity according to German law.

I think of commodities as things that can be put into buckets, currencies that can be put into pockets, and contracts that can be put into file folders. If you were to memorize a private key and then destroy it, it becomes only a thought which can only be expressed. Therefor Bitcoin is speech.

matonis

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Quote from: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on February 07, 2012, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

A lawyer argues here: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2011/06/bitcoins-wahrung-oder-ware/wettbewerbsrecht/strafrecht/rechtsanwalt/verkehrsrecht/ that Bitcoin is a commodity according to German law.

Thanks for that reference. I went and read the English version. Isn't everything a commodity, really?
I will believe bitcoin is a currency when the State accepts it for payment of my speeding tickets.

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)

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Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

A lawyer argues here: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2011/06/bitcoins-wahrung-oder-ware/wettbewerbsrecht/strafrecht/rechtsanwalt/verkehrsrecht/ that Bitcoin is a commodity according to German law.

matonis

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Quote from: is4tomj on February 06, 2012, 01:42:25 PM

Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

I read your blog post and it seems what you have argued makes sense. It seems like by the letter of the law (U.S. law) bitcoin is not a currency. You also argued that bitcoin is not an investment contract.

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

You bring up a great point, I only argued what bitcoin is not. I will focus my next post on what bitcoin is. I do not know the legal definition of "commodity" off the top of my head, but I will find out and let you know.

You have also stated in your last paragraph that bitcoin can most certainly be regulated:
"The U.S. may also regulate other bitcoin organizations, e.g. banks and exchanges, through the Bank Secrecy Act and Anti-Money Laundering act and other securities laws. Even though bitcoins are not securities, trading bitcoins, or other bitcoin instruments, are still regulated by the U.S."

This is just not true. Maybe for a fund like www.ultimafund.com because that enters into SEC, but a fixed-rate exchange not holding any customer funds is decidedly not subject to any U.S. regulation. Because, if so, that would be like regulating the sale of air guitars or a QR code or self-created RPOWs that contain an embedded image of my dog urinating.

Boussac

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e-ducat.fr

With European authorities, I asking them to confirm that bitcoins can be treated as "digital gold", i.e just like gold for tax purposes.
My experience tells me to never ask an administration an open question. Grin

The argument I am making is that bitcoins cannot be treated as a security nor as a currency since there is no issuer.

is4tomj

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Quote from: jimbobway on February 06, 2012, 12:41:01 PM

I read your blog post and it seems what you have argued makes sense. It seems like by the letter of the law (U.S. law) bitcoin is not a currency. You also argued that bitcoin is not an investment contract.

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity?

You bring up a great point, I only argued what bitcoin is not. I will focus my next post on what bitcoin is. I do not know the legal definition of "commodity" off the top of my head, but I will find out and let you know.

jimbobway

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Quote from: cbeast on February 06, 2012, 12:51:37 PM

It's a reification http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reification so like the term God, we can make it whatever we want it to be. You can be Bitcoin Agnostic if you want, but if we all speak the language of Bitcoin then it's real enough. Bitcoin is really more of a religion that pays back whatever you put into it.

I think I read somewhere on this forum that bitcoin is an intrinsic property of the Internet. As an analogy, Bitcoin is an elemental property of the Internet that was born similarly when elements where born out of the Big Bang. It had to come into existence. Sounds like sci-fi, but for real.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

It's a reification http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reification so like the term God, we can make it whatever we want it to be. You can be Bitcoin Agnostic if you want, but if we all speak the language of Bitcoin then it's real enough. Bitcoin is really more of a religion that pays back whatever you put into it.

jimbobway

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Activity: 1304

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I read your blog post and it seems what you have argued makes sense. It seems like by the letter of the law (U.S. law) bitcoin is not a currency. You also argued that bitcoin is not an investment contract.

To me it seems like if bitcoin is not a currency, and if it's not security (investment contract), then is bitcoin then a commodity? Seems like you didn't mention anything about commodities, probably for some unmentioned reason. In The Good Wife the lawyers also argued that bitcoin was a commodity.

I think bitcoin is like gold. There is no "issuer". Work needs to be done to "mine" for bitcoins. Work needs to be done to "mine" for gold. There is a limited supply of bitcoins and gold.

The value of gold goes up and down. The value of bitcoins go up and down. Some people choose to use gold, bitcoins, or both as an investment.

Surely, gold is not a security, nor is it a currency that is issued by a country. Since bitcoin is so much like gold I have to conclude that bitcoin is a commodity.

is4tomj

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Hi, below is a link to a blog post on whether bitcoins are considered securities in the U.S. As part of the analysis, this post also determines if bitcoin is considered money or currency under U.S. law.

http://blog.bitcointitan.com/post/16995504313/are-bitcoins-securities-under-u-s-law

I am happy to have discussions either on this forum or on my blog.

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