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Topic: Are blockchains truly distributed systems? - page 3. (Read 883 times)

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legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
September 25, 2020, 11:19:56 AM
#17

Less storage and less bandwidth than now but control of emission is still maintained.


That didn't make any sense.

User verifies all transactions in his shard to ensure that no extra coins are injected by miners - control of emission.

You said that miners/stakers are required to have all the shards. That is NOT sharding, and it makes a full node lesser than what it is in a non-sharded network.

We don't care about miners' wishes and requirements, through competition they will bear any block size as long as it brings in profit. Shards are created to accommodate reduced storage and bandwidth capacity of users.

These shards are detached from each other, basically being independent currencies. But it's not something unheard of, throughout history people have been operating in parallel standards - gold, silver, copper. In the USA there were multiple coins before establishment of the Federal Reserve. Even now people in borderline zones carry two or three sorts of banknotes in their wallets. So if a technically sound and scalable solution could long-term stop corruption and legalized theft then I would say these conversions between independent currencies/shards would look like minor inconvenience.


That doesn't change anything except make "full nodes" mean less than what they are in a non-sharded network.

Plus the complexity for what benefit? Do we stop trusting the consensus, and start trusting each node?

This is the best rabbit whole, where actually comes the trust from...

The distribution is just a model, that doesn't hold in real world as it gives full trust.

We have small , slow players and a few big ones. What is about now?

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 20, 2020, 06:11:48 AM
#16

Less storage and less bandwidth than now but control of emission is still maintained.


That didn't make any sense.

User verifies all transactions in his shard to ensure that no extra coins are injected by miners - control of emission.

You said that miners/stakers are required to have all the shards. That is NOT sharding, and it makes a full node lesser than what it is in a non-sharded network.

We don't care about miners' wishes and requirements, through competition they will bear any block size as long as it brings in profit. Shards are created to accommodate reduced storage and bandwidth capacity of users.

These shards are detached from each other, basically being independent currencies. But it's not something unheard of, throughout history people have been operating in parallel standards - gold, silver, copper. In the USA there were multiple coins before establishment of the Federal Reserve. Even now people in borderline zones carry two or three sorts of banknotes in their wallets. So if a technically sound and scalable solution could long-term stop corruption and legalized theft then I would say these conversions between independent currencies/shards would look like minor inconvenience.


That doesn't change anything except make "full nodes" mean less than what they are in a non-sharded network.

Plus the complexity for what benefit? Do we stop trusting the consensus, and start trusting each node?
mda
member
Activity: 144
Merit: 13
September 20, 2020, 03:41:31 AM
#15

Less storage and less bandwidth than now but control of emission is still maintained.


That didn't make any sense.

User verifies all transactions in his shard to ensure that no extra coins are injected by miners - control of emission.

You said that miners/stakers are required to have all the shards. That is NOT sharding, and it makes a full node lesser than what it is in a non-sharded network.

We don't care about miners' wishes and requirements, through competition they will bear any block size as long as it brings in profit. Shards are created to accommodate reduced storage and bandwidth capacity of users.

These shards are detached from each other, basically being independent currencies. But it's not something unheard of, throughout history people have been operating in parallel standards - gold, silver, copper. In the USA there were multiple coins before establishment of the Federal Reserve. Even now people in borderline zones carry two or three sorts of banknotes in their wallets. So if a technically sound and scalable solution could long-term stop corruption and legalized theft then I would say these conversions between independent currencies/shards would look like minor inconvenience.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 20, 2020, 02:41:35 AM
#14
But what you posted DIDN'T maintain decentralization, it simply redefined a non-mining full node to be lesser than in a non-sharded network.

Less storage and less bandwidth than now but control of emission is still maintained.


That didn't make any sense.

Quote

Think of these shards as cloned altcoins with shared (and very high) hashrate.


You said that miners/stakers are required to have all the shards. That is NOT sharding, and it makes a full node lesser than what it is in a non-sharded network.
mda
member
Activity: 144
Merit: 13
September 19, 2020, 08:45:38 AM
#13
But what you posted DIDN'T maintain decentralization, it simply redefined a non-mining full node to be lesser than in a non-sharded network.

Less storage and less bandwidth than now but control of emission is still maintained. Think of these shards as cloned altcoins with shared (and very high) hashrate.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1293
There is trouble abrewing
September 19, 2020, 08:32:17 AM
#12
All shards? Doesn't that NOT change anything except make a non-mining "full node" less than what is in a "non-sharded" blockchain?

Yes, that and 1000x bigger transaction throughput, and 100x bigger market cap. All while security and decentralization stay unchanged.
But I guess the masses don't care much about security nor decentralization.

masses who don't care about decentralization and security also don't care about cryptocurrencies and instead stick to their banks and other centralized alternatives. this is exactly why every centralized altcoin so far has failed over the long run.

in any case could you give us an example of sharding that is currently handling 1000x bigger transaction throughput?
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 19, 2020, 03:58:15 AM
#11

All shards? Doesn't that NOT change anything except make a non-mining "full node" less than what is in a "non-sharded" blockchain?


Yes, that and 1000x bigger transaction throughput, and 100x bigger market cap. All while security and decentralization stay unchanged.


I'm sorry, but now I believe you are just shitposting.

Quote

But I guess the masses don't care much about security nor decentralization.


But what you posted DIDN'T maintain decentralization, it simply redefined a non-mining full node to be lesser than in a non-sharded network.
mda
member
Activity: 144
Merit: 13
September 19, 2020, 01:37:16 AM
#10
All shards? Doesn't that NOT change anything except make a non-mining "full node" less than what is in a "non-sharded" blockchain?

Yes, that and 1000x bigger transaction throughput, and 100x bigger market cap. All while security and decentralization stay unchanged.
But I guess the masses don't care much about security nor decentralization.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 02, 2020, 11:48:00 PM
#9
Curious. What cryptocurrency has implemented sharding successfully, and how does transfer of value happen between shards?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sharding-strategy-held-together-by-atomic-swaps-5109561
None has implemented it though, otherwise BTLightning would have already crashed.

Because what I want to know is, if miners/stakers are required to have all the shards, or trust their peers for the integrity of each shard?

Miners mine all shards, users verify few, one or none.


All shards? Doesn't that NOT change anything except make a non-mining "full node" less than what is in a "non-sharded" blockchain?

it is the distribution of "power" not distribution of "load". the power to make decisions, enforce rules, keep the employees (eg. miners) in line with those rules,... the fact that each node does all of this on its own means they are not relying on anybody else and make their own decisions hence keeping the network decentralized.

Great answer.

I think the next step in blockchains is distributing load - storage, CPU, network, etc. in a fair and trustless way, while maintaining the distribution in power. Blockchains such as bitcoin are vastly over-redundant.


But it has to be.
jr. member
Activity: 39
Merit: 6
September 02, 2020, 07:48:45 PM
#8
it is the distribution of "power" not distribution of "load". the power to make decisions, enforce rules, keep the employees (eg. miners) in line with those rules,... the fact that each node does all of this on its own means they are not relying on anybody else and make their own decisions hence keeping the network decentralized.

Great answer.

I think the next step in blockchains is distributing load - storage, CPU, network, etc. in a fair and trustless way, while maintaining the distribution in power. Blockchains such as bitcoin are vastly over-redundant.
mda
member
Activity: 144
Merit: 13
August 31, 2020, 08:23:20 AM
#7
Curious. What cryptocurrency has implemented sharding successfully, and how does transfer of value happen between shards?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sharding-strategy-held-together-by-atomic-swaps-5109561
None has implemented it though, otherwise BTLightning would have already crashed.

Because what I want to know is, if miners/stakers are required to have all the shards, or trust their peers for the integrity of each shard?

Miners mine all shards, users verify few, one or none.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
August 31, 2020, 05:19:08 AM
#6
Maybe sharding is what you're looking for since each nodes only verify and store some transaction/block.
Curious. What cryptocurrency has implemented sharding successfully, and how does transfer of value happen between shards?

There are few cryptocurrency which claim using sharding such as Ziliqa (ZIL), but i never check the implementation in details.


Because what I want to know is, if miners/stakers are required to have all the shards, or trust their peers for the integrity of each shard?
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
August 29, 2020, 03:50:13 AM
#5
it is the distribution of "power" not distribution of "load". the power to make decisions, enforce rules, keep the employees (eg. miners) in line with those rules,... the fact that each node does all of this on its own means they are not relying on anybody else and make their own decisions hence keeping the network decentralized.


I'm talking about "blockchain" classified as a sub-group under DLT, or "Distributed Ledger Technology", not the "blockchain governance" side of it.

Replication distributed system might describe better characteristic blockchain where all nodes do same thing (store same data, have identical/compatible rules, etc.).

Maybe sharding is what you're looking for since each nodes only verify and store some transaction/block.


Curious. What cryptocurrency has implemented sharding successfully, and how does transfer of value happen between shards?
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
August 28, 2020, 04:25:09 AM
#4
it is the distribution of "power" not distribution of "load". the power to make decisions, enforce rules, keep the employees (eg. miners) in line with those rules,... the fact that each node does all of this on its own means they are not relying on anybody else and make their own decisions hence keeping the network decentralized.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
August 28, 2020, 04:17:10 AM
#3
A distributed system has characteristics that include redundancy and autonomy. Anyway, debating the definition of "distributed" has little benefit.


But the main understanding for distributed systems is "distributed load". Blockchain networks doesn't distribute load, it actually does it the reverse way because every node validates, and re-validates all transactions/messages.

I was merely curious. Sorry if it's a stupid question.
legendary
Activity: 4522
Merit: 3426
August 28, 2020, 02:51:53 AM
#2
A distributed system has characteristics that include redundancy and autonomy. Anyway, debating the definition of "distributed" has little benefit.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
August 28, 2020, 02:41:43 AM
#1
Yes? But in a "distributed blockchain network", it might the the opposite of "distributed", because every node must validate every participant's transactions/messages, taking the processing by themselves.

Have we misunderstood what it truly is?
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