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Topic: Are heavy fees and transaction delays in BTC causing crypto market to fail? - page 2. (Read 373 times)

sr. member
Activity: 658
Merit: 282
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The user can choose what fee they pay in Bitcoin, it depends how fast one wants to have their money sent. And some amounts are too small to be sent, even with the smallest fee (as in the 1,520% fee example above). All decentralised cryptocurrencies have this problem, real blockchains (Ethereum is not a decentralised blockchain) have limited on-chain resources.


The known solutions are:

1. Abstract the transactions away into a different protocol layer (i.e. off-chain payment channel networks)
2. Improve the scalability of transaction verification to increase the capacity of the on-chain protocol layer

What if there are more solutions aside from the two solutions that you mentioned?

E.g. probabilistic payments could be a method of circumventing the problem that some amounts are either
too small to be sent or the transaction fee would make the transaction uneconomical.

I´ll quote BitcoinWiki, because I really like the way that they explain the concept
of probabilistic payments:
Quote
Nanopayments are tiny payments for a trivial service. For example, 0.0001 BTC
for each of three Tor nodes to relay one megabyte of traffic with premium priority.
It should be easy to see that a series of payments like this would be "spam" to Bitcoin,
and infeasible due to transaction fees, and unwelcome to everyone who must download and store the whole block chain.

The idea, in a nutshell, is for Alice to make a 0.0001 BTC nanopayment to Bob by signing a message not worth 0.0001 BTC,
but by signing a message that has 1 in 10000 probability of being worth 1 BTC, and sending it to Bob directly. This message
would function much like a share in a mining pool. Out of 10000 nanopayments, on average, 9999 will be worthless and 1 will not.

For it to work fairly, Alice must not have any way to know which share is actually redeemable to the recipient.

Of course, due to variance, Alice will sometimes get her services for free, and sometimes she will vastly overpay.
However, if she consumes such services regularly, the amount she pays will tend toward the amount she consumes.

I concede that this concept is probably unfeasible for many purposes, but in some areas
this could really be a viable solution for enabling micropayments.

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Your question is more economic than technological  correct?
The best deal is direct selling(p2p) using online sellers " local bitcoin "and pay cash.

These companies/sites use the highest fees to ensure that the payments will be received as soon as possible and guaranteed
Hmm not really you know why because any crypto payment starts with these exchanges from fiat money to crypto, only then comes p2p transactions.

No, you're wrong. The screenshots you included show Bitcoin (and Litecoin) fees for their respective p2p networks, and the level is chosen for the user by the website you are using. And the website isn't choosing the cheapest fee for you, it's choosing a medium priced fee (they should let the user choose how much to pay, and explain the problems with using very high or very low fees)
copper member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2890
Your question is more economic than technological  correct?
The best deal is direct selling(p2p) using online sellers " local bitcoin "and pay cash.

These companies/sites use the highest fees to ensure that the payments will be received as soon as possible and guaranteed
Hmm not really you know why because any crypto payment starts with these exchanges from fiat money to crypto, only then comes p2p transactions.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
No, fees aren't charged as a percentage. It's misleading to present it this way.
Yes, I agree 100%, presenting fees in percentage is wrong. But I calculated for per my transactions buying crypto using fiat money.

This has nothing to do with Bitcoin itself though, that's a 3rd party charging those fees.


1. Abstract the transactions away into a different protocol layer (i.e. off-chain payment channel networks)
2. Improve the scalability of transaction verification to increase the capacity of the on-chain protocol layer
Well to be honest yes we all know scalability is one of the reasons but why we haven't had the solution already? Even if there are solution in some crypto currencies but those all coming with big question marks already.
Can ripple be that currency? Because I heard it addressed such scenarios again at the same time many experts not even ready to call it a crypto currency but kind of fiat with label of crypto currency.

Doesn't it look like we are still far far away from such ideal scenarios? like we have in form visa and credit card payments.

People are (over-enthusiastically) using off-chain payment channels already. Fees are cheap (0.00000001 BTC).

It's not recommended right now, the tech is not mature and money could be lost. But some (brave) websites will accept payments this way, so it's not an unreasonable projection that payment channels could be sufficiently well evolved that they'll be more mainstream later this year. Real-world use should help to tease out any problems that need fixing, despite the fact that this is not recommended due to the short-term risks.

Scaling on-chain transaction verification has some candidate technologies, but it's unlikely they'll be implemented on the Bitcoin network this year. But off-chain payment channels do more to add capacity, so that's not such an issue. Hence why off-chain payment channels are number 1 on my list above.
copper member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2890
No, fees aren't charged as a percentage. It's misleading to present it this way.
Yes, I agree 100%, presenting fees in percentage is wrong. But I calculated for per my transactions buying crypto using fiat money. Also if we talk about average online transaction amount let say on visa is 60 Euro or 75USD from 2010-2015. We can assume similar average amount people would be spending in crypto currencies too. Keeping this in mind fees are very high.


1. Abstract the transactions away into a different protocol layer (i.e. off-chain payment channel networks)
2. Improve the scalability of transaction verification to increase the capacity of the on-chain protocol layer
Well to be honest yes we all know scalability is one of the reasons but why we haven't had the solution already? Even if there are solution in some crypto currencies but those all coming with big question marks already.
Can ripple be that currency? Because I heard it addressed such scenarios again at the same time many experts not even ready to call it a crypto currency but kind of fiat with label of crypto currency.

Doesn't it look like we are still far far away from such ideal scenarios? like we have in form visa and credit card payments.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
So these heavy fees (8%-10%) and delays in transaction (10 min to hours) are not practical at all. That's why people are loosing faith in crypto currencies. It's purely my opinion of course you can differ.

No, fees aren't charged as a percentage. It's misleading to present it this way.


For instance, if you sent 0.0000546 BTC (the minimum standard amount) yesterday with the same fee you paid (0.00083BTC), that would work out like this:


Pay: 0.0000546 BTC
Fee: 0.00083 BTC (1,520%)

That's not such a great deal.


Or, if you sent 5 BTC instead:

Pay: 5.0 BTC
Fee: 0.00083 BTC (0.0166%)

A better deal. Percentages are a misleading way to present Bitcoin fees.



The user can choose what fee they pay in Bitcoin, it depends how fast one wants to have their money sent. And some amounts are too small to be sent, even with the smallest fee (as in the 1,520% fee example above). All decentralised cryptocurrencies have this problem, real blockchains (Ethereum is not a decentralised blockchain) have limited on-chain resources.


The known solutions are:

1. Abstract the transactions away into a different protocol layer (i.e. off-chain payment channel networks)
2. Improve the scalability of transaction verification to increase the capacity of the on-chain protocol layer
copper member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2890
This is a fact that Bitcoin and Ethereum are the main currencies today. All other crypto currencies are some how based on one of these. If you want to buy any other crypto currency using fiat money you have to buy BTC or ETH first. Yes there are some currencies like XRP or LTC you can buy using fiat but very very few exchanges offering this and with such high fees.

Let say you want to buy BTC using credit card.



Pay: $100
Fee: $14 (14%)

Now same if you want to buy LTC using credit card.



Pay: $100
Fee: $10.14 (10%)

Now let see how much fee is there if you want transfer or send ETH or BTC

I transferred yesterday 0.2ETH to someone, transaction details https://etherscan.io/tx/0xaabd4134c8d7fe30510e906bd9286ac54d6a208903e597a817c48aa345a8cf60

Pay: 0.2ETH
Fee: 0.002289512 ETH  (1.14%)
Confirmation after: 01:33 hours

Also sent some BTC on 22nd Jan, transaction details https://blockchain.info/tx/8bfc5825a1976a143149e53d86d06695a61091be649ffba4073c8d5ef8497afd

Pay: 0.01BTC
Fee: 0.00083BTC (8.3%)
Confirmation time: 00:10 minutes

So these heavy fees (8%-10%) and delays in transaction (10 min to hours) are not practical at all. That's why people are loosing faith in crypto currencies. It's purely my opinion of course you can differ.

One more thing people currently involved in crypto market are actually here to make quick profits. There are no real life scenarios where people are actually dealing in crypto currencies and i guess fees and transaction delays are the main reason.

My question is will these issue be solved any soon?
Will there be a strong crytpo currency with real low fees and transaction confirmation on click? and can be bought and sold easily?




 

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