Topic: Are Mining Pools the downfall of the Bitcoin (Read 2190 times)

I'm just gonna take that with a liiiiittle pinch of salt...

i've always mined DGM, on pools which have a transparent fee. Bitparking / now MMpool.org is my pool of preference.
All the stats on payouts, and also the stats on how much the pool earns, is all open and transparent.

i don't mind paying a pool fee, when it is evident.

How could it be. Bitcoin community exists through mining. Price collapsed but steady now.

welcome to mining.

First you are members of a PPLNS pools, most pools are PPLNS pools. and no matter what anby of the pool owners may try and say PPLNS pools are profit houses for the pool owners. even if it says 0% fee or 99.1% payout, they are profit houses.

Example lets take GHASH.io just for shits and giggles   HAHAHA

Ghash.io pays out in shifts. 11 shifts of work are paid for each block solved.

at their current hashrate that is approximately 1 billion shares every 9 minutes. for 11 shifts that is 11 billion submitted shares they are paying for but at current difficulty it could take 35 billion shares to solve a block.

Ghash.io currently pays roughly 0.0000000003 BTC per share on the last 11 shifts of work on each block found.

11 Billion Shares submitted in the last 11 shifts of work is only 3.3 BTC payout to its members. Where is the other 21 BTC?? It is in Ghash.ios pocket

Altho other pools mess with the N% talk about variance, luck and blah blah blah, 0% pool fee or claim they pay 99.1% simple math will show they are profiting way more than  the miners who mine there. PPLNS Pools are all profit houses for the pool owners simple math will show you that, just as I have shown you exactly what GHASH.io is doing to its members.
This information i used is based on my own rewards on miners I have pointed there during my weekly tests of their pool so i didnt pull these numbers out of the air or anything.

You want to say i am wrong, then please explain first why there are so many PPLNS pools, if they were not complete profit houses. Then explain why we have them, why would they exist. They exist because they are profit houses for the pool owners masked by a bunch of ridiculous calculations to throw the members off so they can not really see exactly how much the members are loosing and how much the pool is gaining. Not all pools are as scandalous as GHASH.io some are more fair with larger payout shifts. Thats where the N factor comes in. N is determined by the pool owners, its not added by the difficulty divided by the craters on the moon and percentified by the astrological circumference of Jupiter. its exactly what the pool owners decides it to be.

the only fair way to mine is find a few friends have about 2 to 3 PHS of mining power and start your own little mining pool together. forget members, forget the bullshit, just solo mine together, and you will get a 1 to 3 blocks a day then split the reward proportionally between the members per the hash they have pointed at the pool. Meaning if you have 10 % of the hardware pointed at the pool you get 10% of the reward.., thats fair thats equal PERIOD!!!

Please tell me PPLNS lovers what is so wrong with a proportional pool who takes 0.5% of the pool rewards as fees? explain how it could not be profitable for a pool owner. it may not make you rich like your PPLNS pool but its still profitable. and if you own 50% of the pools hashrates why would you not be making good money, why the need for ridiculous calculations, why not flat out straight forward calculations that dont even need a calculator, Ok i have 10 % of the hashrate I get 2.5 BTC no real big equation needed. DO NOT PULL THE POOL HOPPING CARD, becasue PPLNS pools are the best pool hopping experiences you can have just hop in the pool for the last N% of the block and then hop out for 40 to 60 hours, dont bullshit me I am a frequent pool hopper on many PPLNS pools its part of how I make a 3 month ROI on my machines.

No. The reason that block explorers like blockchain.info can "tell" which pool found a block is because the pools use the same node (with a static IP address) to relay their found blocks. A pool could easily change this procedure to relay each new found block from a different node (and potentially to have the block subsidy sent to a new address). This would make it appear that a new node was finding each new block but would reduce transparency for a pool's users

If there was a law that forbid you to do anything stupid and useless with your electrical energy we would be living pretty boring life if you ask me.

Mining Pools are certainly not evolution in mining it is necessity. And like all necessities when you have no choice are not good.

and oh yah, 90% of network rejects change of protocol and nothing happens.

I think as far as the bitcoin protocol is concerned all mining looks like solo mining anyway, a pool or mine is a large solo-er.

However forcing "more" solo mining would REALLY screw the little guy. Whether a industrial scale mine was running 1 client with 1000 Terahash connected, or 1 client per 500 GH ASIC, 2000 clients, they'd get the same income.... whereas your single 500GH would have to run years to have a good chance of a single block reward.

1. Finding blocks is salving blocks.
2. The faster blocks are solved the more money you will make; this is true.
3. Its true that the more pools there are the longer it will take each pool to salve a block. This is because while a block will be solved ever 10 minutes (average), only one pool (one miner) can salve a block at a time. Therefor the more pools there are the longer it will take for your pool to salve a block. On the other-hand a single pool for everyone can bring in many more problems. What if the pool goes down? then many people will be pissed off.

even when trying to change to POS (proof of stake) or POR (proof of resource) to attempt to dilute mega pools into more singular participants, wont work. this is because there are many ways to fool the system

proof of work (current bitcoin protocol) is the only true method.

i dont think it would be possible.

I don't think it is possible to prevent miners from cooperating (pooling). Nor desirable as you pointed out.

i'm just letting my thoughts wander here... is there any way that the bitcoin protocol could be changed to only permit solo mining?
not that it would be a desirable scenario, as there are too many large farms who would have owners rubbing their hands thinking they could 'own' bitcoin.
but, is it possible? i'm no coder so i wouldn't have the first clue about this... just pondering...

I think the same as you do. Pools have done some damage to the bitcoin system because they came in too early and there where too many different payout systems. but because mining bitcoins is like a lottery solo mining at this point would be devastating to most people even if there where no pools. What would happen is that at current hashing power for home miners and current difficulty you would be waiting five to 10 years to win a block or just as easily, never.  Having an official pool could salve the problem but a single pool can bring in other issues such as vulnerability to attacks and bandwidth issues. To mitigate network problems there should be 3 to 5 official pools to chose from.

I define an official pool as pools that are mandatory for mining coins. this means that an agency needs to be set up to govern the rules and license to these pools and any one who wants to mine coins are required to chose between one of those pools. any pool not officially licence to mine coins should be rejected (Known and private pools). to prevent the 51% issue each pool must be required to close new account signups or the addition of miners when approaching a high percentage of hashing power until other pools can catch up. Cloud mining sites could just simply link to official pools.

You really don't want one centralized pool. You'll soon enough find out why if you stuck around here a little longer.

lets say that 20,000 people solo mined. and lets hypothetically say everyone had the exact same hashrate to make it a fair chance to all

1 person will get a block every 10 minutes.

meaning you could be waiting upto 19 weeks just to get 25btc.

now work out that on todays hashrate each of those people would need an equal 15 terrahash running for them 19 weeks to get the reward.

knowing that the difficulty jumps every 2 weeks that is nearly 10 jumps before your possible reward, and that would mean to keep within your 19 week predicted win you wold need to change something, either increase your hashrate or join a pool to increase chances.

so would you rather solo mine, knowing every two weeks the chance of getting reward gets further and further away as difficulty rises (due to more people joining) or join a pool and atleast know that each day you are getting small percentages.

there is no point arguing that solo mining is better, because if it financially was.. people would be doing it.

just be happy you are not waiting 20 weeks+(due to difficulty jumps) whilst spending X amount of electric to run 15T/hash unit.

People waste more electricity watching cat videos on youtube than is spent on mining bitcoin.

Hahaha! So I'm reading the OP and comments and I'm constantly checking the dates when this was written. Was this really written today, as in mining today? Finding a block in 6 hours is pretty good if you ask me.

Sorry, I've been out of mining since mining became impossible.

You are correct. The entire Bitcoin network could be operated on a single machine. The amount of electricity being wasted in ungodly.

Maybe Satoshi was a computer programmer for a power company.

it's quite speed to find a block within 6 hours