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Topic: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? - page 2. (Read 2072 times)

sr. member
Activity: 542
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 03:42:49 PM
#29

In POS2.0 you can not accumulating a lot of coin-days being offline.
Only online coins can accumulate.

At least with BC; I found it interesting that they were moving to SHA256 for POS 2.0 vs Scrypt. Not sure what the technical reasoning was behind this, but interesting none the less.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
#28
More staking nodes you have then better for POS security.

I see a big security issue here.

- 1000 wallets holds a few coins and are installed on multiples computers or virtual machines and the biggest wallets are and will be not always online.

That means these 1000 wallets will be able to validate/reject transactions as they want.

In a POW coin like bitcoin, it is not the number that is important but the power of the computers.
I wasn't to precise i am sorry.

Minig power ( POW ) = Weight in POS ( weight = number of staking coins * coin age )  
// coin age is number of days you wait till stake you get more days over time (in POS 2.0 coin age you get only being online offline coin age = 1 in POS1.0 you can get it offline and accumulate it)

More staking nodes you have then better for POS security.
Now more coins in different wallets better for network no mining concentration   same like inPOW 100 small miners is better than 3 big miners. ( i was not to precesie in that before )

In POS big holders have to secure network elsewhere they will make insecure network - you hurt themself.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 17, 2014, 03:16:42 PM
#27
There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.

Yeah.

Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed.

People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course.

Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think.

It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS.

A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.

That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back.

In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future..

That's not accurate with regards to PoW. PoW is far, far less secure than you seem to think it is. See:

http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/16/how-a-mining-monopoly-can-attack-bitcoin/

Specifically:

33-50%
Selfish mining will yield profits above fair share even if Bitcoin is patched. Selfish miner need not be well-connected to the network to win; it can unilaterally earn more Bitcoins with selfish mining. No fix possible, ever.

Double-spends against 6-confirmed transactions are feasible but not guaranteed to succeed. N-confirmations for large N will mitigate merchants' risk.

>=50%
Loss of decentralized trust narrative, inability to differentiate Bitcoin from competing technologies.

Double-spends against 6-confirmed transactions are certain to succeed.

Selected miner targeting: Pool can reject any selected block found by any competing miner.

Selected transaction targeting: Pool can reject any selected transaction and keep it out of the blockchain.

Selected address blocking: Pool can block Bitcoin flows in or out of selected addresses.

Transaction Differentiation: Pool can deprioritize certain transactions and rely on other miners to mine them unless a (hefty) fee is attached.

Fee Extortion: Pool can deny transactions from a particular address unless a (hefty) fee is attached to those transactions.

Complete denial of service: Pool can ignore and orphan every single block found by competitors, thus stop all Bitcoin transactions.

____


So starting at 33% a miner can have a reasonable chance to double spend. And 50% is not just a chance at double spending. It's full blown control of the network on many levels as listed there.
member
Activity: 107
Merit: 10
July 17, 2014, 03:12:59 PM
#26
More staking nodes you have then better for POS security.

I see a big security issue here.

- 1000 wallets holds a few coins and are installed on multiples computers or virtual machines and the biggest wallets are and will be not always online.

That means these 1000 wallets will be able to validate/reject transactions as they want.

In a POW coin like bitcoin, it is not the number that is important but the power of the computers.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 03:12:08 PM
#25
....
In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future..

no man.... this not goes that way....
i was talking to POS dev if you have 2 addresses A = 50% B =50%
they have equal chance to stake... who will win is random.

dont forget coin age parameter...
A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance )
B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 25% staking chance )

day 1.
A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance ) adress A mine blok
B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 25% staking chance ) + 1 coin age

day 2.
A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance ) adress A mine blok  + 1 coin age
B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 50% staking chance coinage parameter kicks in and reset)...
....

that staking chance is weight in POS this is not so simple if that would be like you are saying - none will ever stake with low amount of coins...
I have one BC address with 100BC and it can stake once per week...
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:56:06 PM
#24
There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.

Yeah.

Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed.

People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course.

Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think.

It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS.

A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.

That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back.

In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future..
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 17, 2014, 02:48:08 PM
#23
There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.

Yeah.

Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed.

People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course.

Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think.

It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS.

A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.

That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 02:46:33 PM
#22
My logic was mathematically fundamental. The input entropy set is quite deterministic and well known and thus can be preimaged. For example, accumulating a lot of coin-days-destroyed and then targeting them in clever ways to subvert the security.
...

In POS2.0 you can not accumulating a lot of coin-days being offline.
Only online coins can accumulate.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:44:55 PM
#21
....
A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.

ONCE AGAIN.
Cheap coins who are in 90% kept on bittrex to sell on pump are valuable because none protect network!

attacker can have 2% of all coins and make 51% attack... when coin don't use solution from POS2.0 is even more valuable to such attacks.

In POS2.0 you cannot generate "more mining power being offline" only online coins can get coin age.
so problem with "owning 50% of all coins temporarily" is minimal and much harder to exploit...
Navajo is not protected because of no one is staking...
Not using POS2.0 make it even more valuable to attack.


Now look at similar POW coins  if you rent mining ring 100Mhs you can attack 18coins with 51%...
http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency?sort=hashrate&dir=asc

Same situation like with POS shitcoins who no one protect...

Sir, you obviously don't get the point.

The point is, with PoS, if you acquire 50% of all coins, you will ALWAYS be able to do a doublespend attack, whether you still have the 50% of coins or not.

With PoW, you can only doublespend for the amount of time you are above 50% hashrate.

Again, PoS=Piece of Shit.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 02:43:00 PM
#20
....
A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.

ONCE AGAIN.
Cheap coins who are in 90% kept on bittrex to sell on pump are valuable because none protect network!

attacker can have 2% of all coins and make 51% attack... when coin don't use solution from POS2.0 is even more valuable to such attacks.

In POS2.0 you cannot generate "more mining power being offline" only online coins can get coin age.
so problem with "owning 50% of all coins temporarily" is minimal and much harder to exploit...
Navajo is not protected because of no one is staking...
Not using POS2.0 make it even more valuable to attack.


Now look at similar POW coins  if you rent mining ring 100Mhs you can attack 18coins with 51%...
http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency?sort=hashrate&dir=asc

Same situation like with POS shitcoins who no one protect...
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:30:16 PM
#19
In particular

The other attacks you describe all derive from the fundamental reason I declared all non-proof-of-work systems to be insecure back in April.

My logic was mathematically fundamental. The input entropy set is quite deterministic and well known and thus can be preimaged. For example, accumulating a lot of coin-days-destroyed and then targeting them in clever ways to subvert the security.

The randomness (entropy) of each proof-of-work is fundamental and mathematical and it can not be preimaged. It can only be surely defeated with > 50% of the network hash rate. Note I recently offered what I believe to a solution to the selfish-mining attack (the one at hackingdistributed.com that claims 25 - 35% attack).

I am skeptical that you can characterize all possible attack vectors of proof-of-stake in one coherent mathematical proof. Thus you will not know formally what the security is; instead a list of adhoc attacks and counter-measures.

Nevertheless I am not bagging on Peercoin. Everyone should be free to decide for themselves which coin they prefer. Perhaps there are unknown attacks on Bitcoin as well, yet I am somewhat comforted by the clear math for security of proof-of-work. I will not say I will never be convinced to support a non-proof-of-work coin, I will correct myself if someone explains such a system convincingly. It is on my TODO list to study more Peercoin.

Edit: Perhaps coin-days-destroyed in some attack vectors motivates not transacting for long periods of time.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:28:25 PM
#18
PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money.

Here is one with miner mentality.
Refer to https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6501833
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
July 17, 2014, 02:24:54 PM
#17
PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money.

Here is one with miner mentality.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:23:41 PM
#16
PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 02:17:29 PM
#15
There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.

Yeah.

Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed.

People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course.

Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think.

It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS.

A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 07:20:35 AM
#14
Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable?

Summary:
Yes but only strong POS networks.

To be fair now days new POS coins are kept mostly in Bittrex lets say sometimes i see 50% of all in order book !!!!
If 97% of coins are kept probably on exchange ( bittrex  and POS new stars… )  when you will buy 2% of 1m coin for 400 sat…0,08BTC
You can play god of their network… and 51% attack have 100% chance.

People are just greed they produce coins which will never have security because of lack community to support it
But same is with POW coin who have network hash rate 10mhs-300mhs scrypt…
Same rules are here and there… just look:
http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency/?sort=hashrate&dir=asc  one KNC titan 300MHS can wipe 30+ networks…

While to hit POS you need buy coins depends on coinmarketcap that can be easy or hard...

Real POS coins like PPC(someday pure POS) BC FTC have secure POS networks today while some newer clones needs some time
or they won't have never it security all depends on people how they secure network

IN VRC situation is that they decided to put 30% of all in ONE place they risked a lot.
Coins with high network weith and many nodes i wil consider as safe.
http://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/nodes-ppc-bc-xc-ftc-nvc.html

Important in POS are p2p networks exchanges, markets, smart contracts and people who will use them.
When those solutions will be popular POS networks will be more secure and faster.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
@Bit_John
July 17, 2014, 07:09:26 AM
#13
PoS coins are still the most secure the Vericoin attack says nothing about the security of these coins. In fact with only 30% of the coins still no reason to roll it back. So to answer the question yes Proof of Stake is a great concept.
hero member
Activity: 543
Merit: 500
July 17, 2014, 06:55:21 AM
#12
Yeah
No, they are not reliable. As you can see, Vericoin had to be rolled back because the attacker got 30% of all Vericoins.

Navajocoin, another PoS coin, was recently doublespent or Nothing at Staked attacked, twice, when he gained over 50% of all Navajocoins.
And this nicely sums up why most people prefer PoW over PoS. When stuff like this happens, it's bad. And it's not hard either. Most hacks are easier than they're choked up to be, all you need is good software or a lot of luck. Or good methods if spotting vulnerabilities.

I cannot stand beside PoS coins, as they always seem to be the greatest scam ever. Until we either fix it or come up with a new Proof system, I can only support PoW.

Yeah. PoW has no flaw and we should all trust mining pool. (esp eligius.st)

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bbqcoin-being-51-attacked-by-luke-jr-95401
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/o6qwx/lukejr_attacks_and_kills_coiledcoin_altcurrency/
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3472/what-is-the-story-behind-the-attack-on-coiledcoin
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.678006

You registered a new bitcointalk account to make this post lol.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1002
July 17, 2014, 05:55:17 AM
#11
I have a simple question.

Let's take an example: There 3 active clients on the network right now.

- Wallet A holds 10 coins

- Wallet B holds 10 coins

- Wallet C holds 100 coins

Wallet C sends 100 coins, who will validate transactions?

Bitcoin miners help keep the Bitcoin network secure, but how secure are PoS coins?

If Wallet A or B can validate transactions, that means PoS is vulnerable to important security flaws?


Wallet C sends 100 coins, who will validate transactions?

straight answer from POS developer:
- Wallet A  and Wallet B have equal chance.
- 50% if A and 50% if B

Bitcoin miners help keep the Bitcoin network secure, but how secure are PoS coins?
On-line coins secure network they are like mining machines.
POS is secure as they holders are.
More staking nodes you have then better for POS security.
Size of wallets also has matter.
NXT have diffident build than PPC family (note: PPC in not pure POS today like BC VRC XC ).

How see networks of particular coins.
More nodes better.


to add more secure and BIG nettwork(more coins) is the faster transactions you will have look:

legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
July 17, 2014, 05:38:15 AM
#10
There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.

Yeah.

Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed.

People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course.

Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think.

It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS.

and how pos(One of the implementations) can deal with the situation in OP's thread?


As i know the network forges blocks and results in a blockchain that is similar in function to how we use blockchains in PoW currencies now. If one person on the network did have over 50% of the coins then it would not be secure, in the same way that if one miner had over 50% of the network on a PoW coin they could mount an attack.

In PoS people forge blocks with their stake and in PoW people mine blocks by finding the correct hash to mine the next block in the blockchain.

Someone who has a better technical understanding about PoS than I can probably explain it better. I just follow along the debate as a layman and try to think about the practical applications.
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