Are POS now legit? | Bitcointalksearch.org

kiklo

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Quote from: r0ach on April 24, 2016, 06:32:43 AM

What I said is not something that makes sense, it's a fundamentally economic problem of PoW . I can type all I want trying to Hype My Bitcoins .

^
Here Fixed that for you. Wink

FYI:
ZEIT real market cap is bouncing between $400,000 & $100,000 ,
the fact you say $2000 only proves you lie too easily.
http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/zeitcoin/#markets

FYI2:
Are you Chinese?
Because it does not seem to bother you in the least that China Dominates Bitcoin's PoW mining and that is a Massive Security Problem.

r0ach

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What I said is not something you can argue around with words, it's a fundamentally broken problem of PoS without even getting in to it's bad security model. You can type all you want trying to hype your scamcoins like "Zeitcoin" and other garbage nobody has ever heard of, but you can't talk your way around these issues.

The fact that you spend all day trying to hype this $2000 market cap coin leads me to believe you're clinically insane when even if PoS was viable, there's tons of PoS coins that aren't clones above it in market cap, so it's literally impossible for Zeitcoin to have a future at all regardless.

kiklo

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Quote from: Amph on April 24, 2016, 06:22:44 AM

you're not taking into account the fact that miners are a part of demand itself, and they will buy coins if they see that the price is too low and this would kill their mining
by doing this they would buy a chance to initiate a rally thus increase the price

LOL,

Miners are producing the coins, buying them from their selves may provide some false volume, but at the end of the day , they will not make any more profit and will in fact lose money (transactions fees) doing this. Because if this could work every dairy farmer on the planet would be buying up milk , sorry it won't work.
Every Month they have to cover their input costs, deferred too much and their electricity is cut off, and they can not make any more coins. Tongue

Update:

Quote

pos only lead to easy dumping, especially when you have tons of coins that sit there on the exchange waitng to be dumped by the owner
what you will think will happen if bitcoin was pos? the exchangers would dump like crazy free coins each day...utterly stupid

All coins PoW or PoS lead to dumping until Utility is provided to make the users want to hold them.
Difference is PoW miners have to dump because of higher input costs, most of the older PoS coins dumps have been because of the PoW miners that originally mined the PoS coins and day traders by buying low and then immediately selling a few points above(causing a downward price pressure), but if your PoS coin has a declining interest rate, your Value will grow, only takes time.

All of the FIAT Wasted on ASICS , will be stored as Marketcap value in a PoS coin.

d5000

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Decentralization Maximalist

Well, Peercoin and Decred (and many clones) use mining permanently. Peercoin and Decred will be PoW/PoS forever if there is no fundamental protocol change. In the Peercoin-based coins it is expected - because of the diff algorithm - that mining importance will decrease, but it will never be zero, and in Decred Mining (as I understand it) will have forever a high importance.

So these coins are working as a descentralized exchange until the last miner will leave the network, and that will probably never occur (less even so in Decred) because if the hashrate drops to zero even CPU mining is profitable.

Amph

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Quote from: kiklo on April 23, 2016, 09:44:16 PM

Quote from: paratox on April 23, 2016, 07:02:32 PM

The actual value in PoW coins comes from the electricity that is used to run the ASICS Wink

Another often quoted misconception.

Reason being if the PoW coin value is directly correlated from the price of the amount of electricity used to create it.
Why is the PoW coin Price not represented (ie: Price goes up) as it takes more electricity to create a new one.
Reason being a growing supply of coins will always decrease price per coin if there is no growth in demand.
Growth in demand can only happen if more or increased utility uses are found for the coin.
BTC has only being a trading medium for Alt coin & international currency Exchange.
Recently BTC is no longer viable as a micropayment option, so they have lost a utility use to Doge.
(Electricity is irrelevant except as a input cost which decreases profit margins)

Example BTC is getting ready to Halve,
therefore it will takes twice the amount of electricity to create a new one, which implies instead of $450 per coin the new price should be $900 per coin.
That won't happen, so there is no direct correlation between a PoW coin and the amount of electricity needed to create it.

you're not taking into account the fact that miners are a part of demand itself, and they will buy coins if they see that the price is too low and this would kill their mining

buy doing this they would buy a chance to initiate a rally thus increase the price

pos only lead to easy dumping, especially when you have tons of coins that sit there on the exchange waitng to be dumped by the owner

what you will think will happen if bitcoin was pos? the exchangers would dump like crazy free coins each day...utterly stupid

kiklo

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Quote from: r0ach on April 24, 2016, 04:52:24 AM

Quote from: achimsmile on April 24, 2016, 04:43:55 AM

Quote from: r0ach on April 24, 2016, 04:32:01 AM

No, PoS is not legit. All closed entropy systems are technically permissioned ledgers that are not decentralized, which will likely give them enormous legal problems in the future.

All stock markets are, in your words "permissioned extortion schemes" as well, will it give them enormous legal problems?

The stock market consists of people who aren't anonymous coming to the table and saying, "buy this shit from me", with some expectation of returns. It's a market subsidized by the government where they use coercive powers to "presumably" stop people from running blatant scams. If you issue things in a centralized fashion the way they do, they lump you into the same legal framework.

There are a few coins like peercoin and blackcoin that are entirely mined that might escape this legal framework, but they're still closed entropy systems that aren't decentralized currencies. Not to mention having horrible fault/state recovery and millions of other problems making them inferior to PoW

1st. Your Entropy & Permissioned arguments are Child like Nonsense as Even the Multiverse is Technically a Closed System and every PoW system requires permission to enter.

2nd. Only People in the US acting as Intermediary (taking in money as an investment and paying out interest directly)
basically acting like a fund manager would have anything to worry about,
The IPOs where only the coin was sold to the end user and that was it, will not fall under the US SEC jurisdiction.
IE: (Most IPO Transactions handled by exchanges are the same as if you created a painting and sold your art work, as such will not fall under the US SEC jurisdiction.)

3rd. PoW is an Economic Failure due to the constantly increasing input costs, and only BTC Shrills blind their selves to that revelation.
A. Becoming a BTC miner is Blocked due to the Financial costs making it a closed system to the majority of the World's Populace. Tongue

B. ASICS are Useless after 1 year due to difficulty increases. ASICS ARMS RACE where only the Mega RICH can win.
C. China already controls over 60% of BTC mining pools (51% attack whenever they feel like it)

Cool

r0ach

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Quote from: d5000 on April 24, 2016, 05:00:16 AM

r0ach: Even if your assumptions are true, there are many PoS coins that are not completely closed because many units are created by traditional PoW mining (Peercoin being the most prominent,

It does not matter if you have mining TEMPORARILY, for the purpose of mining in Bitcoin is to create a permanent decentralized exchange, and this is where your permissionless system originates from. Without permanent mining, you're a closed entropy permissioned ledger. The consensus mechanism is not what defines the cryptocurrency, the act of creating a permanent decentralized exchange is. The proof of stake creators did not understand this.

Even if you do not care and want to purchase a permissioned ledger and not an actual decentralized currency, it's still a worse consensus mechanism than PoW.

d5000

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Decentralization Maximalist

r0ach: Even if your assumptions are true, there are many PoS coins that are not completely closed because many units are created by traditional PoW mining (Peercoin being the most prominent, Decred a newer one, and in the future perhaps ETH, if it goes PoS). And there are many countries with distinct regulations (NXT, for example, was probably coded in Eastern Europe), so there may be countries better suited for an PoS-coin IPO than the US.

I must add that I'm not a friend of cryptocurrency IPO/ICOs. I agree that they are often intransparent and scammy. The Peercoin distribution mechanism with hybrid PoW/PoS is, in my opinion, fairer. But PoW in large cryptos such as Bitcoin has also high entrance costs, not everybody can participate.

r0ach

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Quote from: achimsmile on April 24, 2016, 04:43:55 AM

Quote from: r0ach on April 24, 2016, 04:32:01 AM

No, PoS is not legit. All closed entropy systems are technically permissioned ledgers that are not decentralized, which will likely give them enormous legal problems in the future.

All stock markets are, in your words "permissioned extortion schemes" as well, will it give them enormous legal problems?

The stock market consists of people who aren't anonymous coming to the table and saying, "buy this shit from me", with some expectation of returns. It's a market subsidized by the government where they use coercive powers to "presumably" stop people from running blatant scams. If you issue things in a centralized fashion the way they do, they lump you into the same legal framework.

There are a few coins like peercoin and blackcoin that are entirely mined that might escape this legal framework, but they're still closed entropy systems that aren't decentralized currencies. Not to mention having horrible fault/state recovery and millions of other problems making them inferior to PoW

Go read the IOTA thread. Much of what applies to IOTA in this thread also applies to proof of stake coins:

IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/iota-permissioned-ledger-russian-extortion-scheme-1414866

achimsmile

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Quote from: r0ach on April 24, 2016, 04:32:01 AM

No, PoS is not legit. All closed entropy systems are technically permissioned ledgers that are not decentralized, which will likely give them enormous legal problems in the future.

All stock markets are, in your words "permissioned extortion schemes" as well, will it give them enormous legal problems?

r0ach

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No, PoS is not legit. All closed entropy systems are technically permissioned ledgers that are not decentralized, which will likely give them enormous legal problems in the future, especially if you issued one via IPO. Prepare to go hide out in the mountains of Afghanistan if you did. The same holds true for IOTA where the open entropy of the system is abstracted away from block reward entirely, giving it the same legal problems as any fly by night PoS IPO scam.

d5000

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Decentralization Maximalist

Of course, PoS is legit Wink

But you should keep watching the development if you invest in a PoS coin. PoS has its own challenges - above all, the Nothing@Stake attack family - and so there have to be taken measures to make this attack costly or difficult. NXT for example has pretty good counter-measures to N@S, ETH - if it goes PoS at all - too, I don't know exactly about NEM but I think it should have some part of the PoI algorithm dedicated to N@S combat.

Don't invest in a "dead" PoS coin without active development or ancient code. It may be proven insecure at a moment.

kiklo

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Quote from: stoat on April 23, 2016, 10:13:45 PM

True pos hasn't been invented yet. It's like the fusion reactor. ETH team are the closest currently, and I believe will succeed in achieving true POS.

Hmm,
ZEIT , Noble, Mint , HBN, Sprouts, & Tek all seemed like real Proof of Stake coins to me.

ETH has a big elephant in the room, no one is paying attention too, their blockchain is growing at ~1 Gigabyte per month and that will increase as more people use it. Even PoS coins with a 30 second block time don't usually add more than ~1 gigabyte per year.
It seems like their idea is just going to be ignored due to requiring too many resources while providing too few features, IMO.

Cool

stoat

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FREEDOM RESERVE

True pos hasn't been invented yet. It's like the fusion reactor. ETH team are the closest currently, and I believe will succeed in achieving true POS.

kiklo

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Quote from: paratox on April 23, 2016, 07:02:32 PM

The actual value in PoW coins comes from the electricity that is used to run the ASICS Wink

Another often quoted misconception.

Reason being if the PoW coin value is directly correlated from the price of the amount of electricity used to create it.
Why is the PoW coin Price not represented (ie: Price goes up) as it takes more electricity to create a new one.
Reason being a growing supply of coins will always decrease price per coin if there is no growth in demand.
Growth in demand can only happen if more or increased utility uses are found for the coin.
BTC has only being a trading medium for Alt coin & international currency Exchange.
Recently BTC is no longer viable as a micropayment option, so they have lost a utility use to Doge.
(Electricity is irrelevant except as a input cost which decreases profit margins)

Example BTC is getting ready to Halve,
therefore it will takes twice the amount of electricity to create a new one, which implies instead of $450 per coin the new price should be $900 per coin.
That won't happen, so there is no direct correlation between a PoW coin and the amount of electricity needed to create it.

paratox

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Quote from: kiklo on April 23, 2016, 05:25:23 PM

That is a common misunderstanding,

PoW coins are all speculation , as all of the actual value is in the ASICS.
(Remove the ASICS and your PoW coin network dies.)
Their Speculation is in the hopes that some utility purpose gives them value in the future.
Currently BTC utility is a trading medium for Alt coin & international currency Exchange which due to its slowness and community confusion may pass to LTC or DOGE.
(Doge is currently superior over BTC in making Micropayments, which used to be a BTC selling point.)

PoS coins have an intrinsic value, since they are technically their own mining equipment.
So they automatically have the utility of making more of their own coins and keeping their own network running.
More Utility uses will follow as economically PoS is sustainable by the masses and PoW is destined to be Elite controlled because of economic factors.

Cool

The actual value in PoW coins comes from the electricity that is used to run the ASICS Wink

kiklo

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Quote from: Amph on April 23, 2016, 02:56:59 PM

Quote from: robelneo on April 23, 2016, 01:37:00 PM

I am very much into staking coins,because every body can participate and doesn't involve high priced hardware and beside you can stakes 5 wallet simultaneously but cannot mine 5 coins simultaneously

for bitcoin the value is given by two factors right now, speculation and pow, with pos you would only get speculation...

That is a common misunderstanding,

PoW coins are all speculation , as all of the actual value is in the ASICS.
(Remove the ASICS and your PoW coin network dies.)
Their Speculation is in the hopes that some utility purpose gives them value in the future.
Currently BTC utility is a trading medium for Alt coin & international currency Exchange which due to its slowness and community confusion may pass to LTC or DOGE.
(Doge is currently superior over BTC in making Micropayments, which used to be a BTC selling point.)

PoS coins have an intrinsic value, since they are technically their own mining equipment.
So they automatically have the utility of making more of their own coins and keeping their own network running.
More Utility uses will follow as economically PoS is sustainable by the masses and PoW is destined to be Elite controlled because of economic factors.

Cool

tiggytomb

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I don't have a problem with POS as long as it never comes into force with bitcoin, it is a nice feature and a great way to encourage people to hold onto their coins.

Amph

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Quote from: robelneo on April 23, 2016, 01:37:00 PM

I am very much into staking coins,because every body can participate and doesn't involve high priced hardware and beside you can stakes 5 wallet simultaneously but cannot mine 5 coins simultaneously

it has a dangerous side effect about coin monopoly, and easy dumping, from everyone

especially if staking is high or if the coins has a high value like bitcoin for example

for bitcoin the value is given by two factors right now, speculation and pow, with pos you would only get speculation...

evergrow

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Why was POS 'crap' before? Is this your personal opinion?

Topic: Are POS now legit? (Read 1499 times)