Are terms pyramid scheme and ponzi scheme misused? - page 4.

Ibian

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Quote from: Etlase2 on November 23, 2013, 03:33:26 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on November 23, 2013, 03:05:03 PM

Ponzi is a word. Scheme/scam is a word. It's not a ponzi or pyramid scam/scheme. It doesn't fit the definition. Are you saying that it's only going to be a ponzi scheme/scam if in the future the value or BTC goes to zero or tanks? That makes it a failed investment not, a scam.

"Ponzi" is not a word, it's a name. I will also say yet again, since you don't seem to understand, that my point is that the terms are being used colloquially to denote a monetary scam. Arguing that bitcoin property X does not meet a textbook definition of a specific type of monetary scam does nothing to argue against it being a monetary scam. Calling it an investment does nothing to argue against it being a monetary scam. Madoff provided "investments" too. A decentralized scam does not make it not a scam.

This argument over whether or not the terms are being used correctly is the textbook definition of a red herring.

You need to explain what this "bitcoin scam" is and how it works. Simply slinging mud and hoping some of it sticks is... a poor form of debate.

Ibian

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Quote from: Hawker on November 23, 2013, 03:15:27 PM

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Bitcoin was created by idealists who want to offer an alternative to fiat currency. As such, its not fraudulent so can't ever be considered a Ponzi scheme.

"A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Bitcoin is already a working currency. So its not any more unsustainable than any other project and as such it can't ever be considered a Pyramid scheme.

It's not the fiat that define ponzis and pyramids. Both schemes are perfectly possible with bitcoin, or seashells or anything else. It's bitcoin itself that people are calling ponzi/pyramid.

Etlase2

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Quote from: hilariousandco on November 23, 2013, 03:05:03 PM

Ponzi is a word. Scheme/scam is a word. It's not a ponzi or pyramid scam/scheme. It doesn't fit the definition. Are you saying that it's only going to be a ponzi scheme/scam if in the future the value or BTC goes to zero or tanks? That makes it a failed investment not, a scam.

"Ponzi" is not a word, it's a name. I will also say yet again, since you don't seem to understand, that my point is that the terms are being used colloquially to denote a monetary scam. Arguing that bitcoin property X does not meet a textbook definition of a specific type of monetary scam does nothing to argue against it being a monetary scam. Calling it an investment does nothing to argue against it being a monetary scam. Madoff provided "investments" too. A decentralized scam does not make it not a scam.

This argument over whether or not the terms are being used correctly is the textbook definition of a red herring.

Ekaros

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Ponzi and pyramid is a specific kind of schemes...

Bitcoin might be a mania or used as an investment scheme by some part of users...

Hawker

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"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Bitcoin was created by idealists who want to offer an alternative to fiat currency. As such, its not fraudulent so can't ever be considered a Ponzi scheme.

"A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Bitcoin is already a working currency. So its not any more unsustainable than any other project and as such it can't ever be considered a Pyramid scheme.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: Etlase2 on November 23, 2013, 02:41:26 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on November 23, 2013, 01:35:49 PM

It's not pedantic to use words correctly as defined.

Except that they are not words, they are phrases that arose from specific scams to become more general terms for monetary scams.

Quote

Buying Bitcoin is an investment and you can win or lose but that doesn't automatically make it a scam.

I didn't say it did, I said that someone calling it a pyramid or ponzi scheme does not automatically make their argument irrelevant because bitcoin does not fit some specific definition of a pyramid or ponzi scheme. It is a bitcoin scheme, and whether or not it is considered a scam is for future history books to decide.

Ponzi is a word. Scheme/scam is a word. It's not a ponzi or pyramid scam/scheme. It doesn't fit the definition. Are you saying that it's only going to be a ponzi scheme/scam if in the future the value or BTC goes to zero or tanks? That makes it a failed investment, not a scam.

And can you define the phrase 'bitcoin scheme'?

beetcoin

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yes. there should be a list of most commonly misused terms.

ponzi cheme
pyramid scheme
intrinstic value
zero sum game (gain)

Etlase2

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Quote from: hilariousandco on November 23, 2013, 01:35:49 PM

It's not pedantic to use words correctly as defined.

Except that they are not words, they are phrases that arose from specific scams to become more general terms for monetary scams.

Quote

Buying Bitcoin is an investment and you can win or lose but that doesn't automatically make it a scam.

I didn't say it did, I said that someone calling it a pyramid or ponzi scheme does not automatically make their argument irrelevant because bitcoin does not fit some specific definition of a pyramid or ponzi scheme. It is a bitcoin scheme, and whether or not it is considered a scam is for future history books to decide.

mogrith

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Use Coinbase Account almosanywhere with Shift card

Wish there was a number 7. Bitcoin is not a scam. But can be used by scammers.

so I went with 6

BitDreams

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I voted 6

Ibian

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Bitcoin is not a pyramid or a ponzi. The people who call it that are wrong. There really is nothing to discuss here.

hilariousandco

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Quote from: Etlase2 on November 23, 2013, 01:28:42 PM

Whether or not the pyramid or ponzi scheme terms are misused by pedantic definitions does not provide an argument against bitcoin being a * scheme. It is a "bitcoin scheme" which closely resembles a pyramid scheme but has a few twists.

It's not pedantic to use words correctly as defined. Is trading fiat currencies or buying and selling shares or property a 'ponzi or pyramid scheme with twists'? No. Buying Bitcoin is an investment and you can win or lose but that doesn't automatically make it a scam.

Etlase2

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Whether or not the pyramid or ponzi scheme terms are misused by pedantic definitions does not provide an argument against bitcoin being a * scheme. It is a "bitcoin scheme" which closely resembles a pyramid scheme but has a few twists.

Ekaros

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Quote from: johankahn on November 23, 2013, 11:53:32 AM

Ponzi is where new investors investments are divided up as "Dividends" and Pyramid each bottom referral blosters up the reffers balance.. correct?

Pretty much, my take is:

Ponzi is where central person or group pays old investors with new investors money.

Pyramid is same, but with recruiting bonuses paid by recruited people...
That is my understanding.

Ibian

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Yes.

hilariousandco

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It's not a ponzi or a pyramid scheme, and if it was then so is gold and shares etc. People only call it a ponzi/pyrmid out of not understanding either cryptocurrencies or investments. Yes, you could lose all your money just as you can lose all your shares etc.

johankahn

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Ponzi is where new investors investments are divided up as "Dividends" and Pyramid each bottom referral blosters up the reffers balance.. correct?

Ekaros

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Just want to get info on these terms.

I go with option 6. That both terms are incorrectly used.

Topic: Are terms pyramid scheme and ponzi scheme misused? - page 4. (Read 4795 times)