Topic: Article: Bitcoin - a Payment Simulator Taken Seriously - page 2. (Read 447 times)

Whatever, energy is spent for manipulation with numeric attributions. I have problem about your claim that numeric values are backed by electricity. If numeric values attributed to a person are "backed up", than there must be some resource counted with those values in the ownership of that person.

Not my definitions. Bitcoin has value, to someone I guess. But bitcoin is freely available to everyone. It's a chain of digital signatures - according to Nakamoto's own definition. You can have the chain by downloading the blockchain.

Yes, milk is a resource. But what that has to do with the Nakamoto simulator? This creation simulates transfer of resources by mimicking farmers when they record quantities of transferred milk.

1. yes energy is "spent".. not saved
2. bitcoin is not about trading electric batteries with potential energy to power other electrics

the spent energy has a cost. and people trade for what is created(mined coins) when that energy is spent/used. 
because they want the convenience to have coins but without the inconvenience of having to mine them. so they buy the coins from people who have coins (whom had costs involved in their acquisition of the coins).

..
analogy:
when a farmer pays for land and buys cows to graze on it to create milk. ..and then those cows actually do create the milk.

that milk is not "stored land". .. its milk
that milk has the costs of the land and the cows.

people want milk because it has a benefit for them. but those that want milk dont want to become farmers. so they just buy milk at a fair price that should atleast covers the farmers costs

the now milk owner does not now own "land" nor want to own land.. he owns milk that milk had a underlying cost in its production.

well under snowshows very own definitions

snowshow's messages hold no value and are meaningless because the amount of energy and time he put into creating characters on a page have no meaning or value. (correct snowshow?)

his messages stored on this forum are just random characters on a page with no value or meaning.(correct snowshow?)

if so, then.. bye snowshow.
you are just wasting your time and energy, (by your own admission, right?)

Unfortunately for you, Satoshi did not code Bitcoin as a monopoly game, else it would've had OpenGL as well  

Power and energy is not spent on "verifying numeric attributions", it is spent finding a solution to a cryptographic challenge to mine a block. This is precisely what Nakamoto was talking about in the whitepaper so I don't see what problem you have about this.

You got it all wrong. Let me help you understand. Power or energy is spent on verifying numeric attributions There's no some energy stored somewhere for bitcoin holders to access and use. All the energy invested by miners is spent for a chain of digitally signed numeric attributions to grow. That chain is a record of simulated transactions with electronic coins. Coins are simulated via numeric attributions. They don't exist in reality Just like the items in the Monopoly game.

It's not imagination. It's reality. It's your choice whether you want to believe it or cry wolf.


Yeah well those "numeric values" are backed by mining power.

If all miners everywhere stopped mining then the asset backing bitcoin will disappear and the price will sink to zero. But since more miners are joining, the amount of backing asset increases, which supports higher Bitcoin processes. This is not an activity you can just plug into a supercomputer with current time and space capacity and "simulate" it, whatever weird meaning you have for that.

Right here, you have in the Bitcoin network an "environment where resources are produced and exchanged". You can stop spreading disinformation now.

Hahaha. You have a big imagination. You cannot change reality by playing semantics. It's a simulator in a sense that by mimicking the recording process, it simulates the environment where resources are produced and exchanged. Because in the majority of such exchanges numeric values are used to count the quantity of transferred resource units. Nakamoto's system is not the environment where resources are produced and then exchanged. However, by using and recording numeric values, the illusion of such environment is created.  This makes Nakamoto's invention a simulator. And this has nothing to do with some determinism - whatever you meant by this abstract concept.

no
government modern fiat is pushed to be that belief because they didnt want government fiat to be backed by a real underyling thing of value.

..
imagine a medium of exchange as not just a price.. but a sandwich of different amounts
- - - - - - - most willing to pay before disagreement/dis-interest
   ..          ..
..    ..    ..     price (speculative market)
         ..
- - - - - - -underlying value

the 'most' and 'underlying' are the support and resistant walls where no one wants to sell below or buy above

the price is the filling in the middle that changes depending on peoples personal desires/demands/ personal choices and barter


when the price is low its NEAR VALUE when the price is high its at a premium and over valued

bitcoins are created at a cost(mining) you cant just create bitcoin out of thin air for free. it actually costs electric and time to create bitcoin

as coins move between people where someone sells a coin. he sells it and the new buy then has their acquisition cost..

the paradigm of mining cost and acquisition costs push up the underlying value amount progressively.. which then affect the window of the speculative market above that

yes the price within the window is not fixed and is based on different peoples agreement. but that market window of possible prices.. sit WITHIN the window. which has a base underlying of value propping it up where the lowest "price" possible is non zero

Economy is about producing and exchanging resources. It has absolutely nothing to do with believing. A belief is a state of mind of a person.

The banking system produces and exchanges debt - a resource, with quantity of that resource being recorded with deposits and banknotes. You can see in the article more details.

The Nakamoto simulator attributes numeric values to the addresses and records them into the blockchain in order to mimic the recording that banks use. In that way an exchange or a transaction is simulated. In other words, nothing was exchanged or transferred, but the record creates the illusion it was. Bitcoin is just a chain of digital signatures recorded on the blockchain. You can get it for free. Together with other blockchain components and open-source software and protocols it constitutes the Nakamoto simulator.

The main issue with that (as many people have pointed out to you in previous threads) is that Bitcoin is not a simulator. Bitcoin doesn't have the required parts that would make it a simulator. For instance - all simulators are deterministic - for a given input, you can get the same result over and over again. This is not true for Bitcoin because the from a probability point of view, the miner that successfully mines a block is picked at random from the set of miners.

If it is not deterministic, it cannot be a simulator in the first place (if it was, then it could not be money).

I’m not really good with economics, maybe someone can help explain to me, but from my own understanding- everything is either backed by debt or belief of the people that such asset has a value right? Even the fiat we are all using today has value because we all believe that it does right? Which is why the government can devalue it at anytime. So why do people have problem with Bitcoin? And moreover it’s not like bitcoin is something that anyone can easily get, only few people can afford what it takes to mine Bitcoin, which is why it is very scarce , so I don’t see anything wrong with the value or price. If it was something that anyone can easily get, then maybe we can talk about it not truly deserving the value that is being tagged on it.

There's no Bitcoin mining. There's energy spending for verifying numeric attributions before recording them into the blockchain. Sure, energy has value. But you're not buying energy when joining the Nakamoto simulator. You're just participating in a simulation where the recording of numeric values attributed to your address mimics the recording of real transactions.
I am not disputing the implementation of Nakamoto's simulator. I am just showing why Bitcoin - a chain of digital signatures, is freely available to everyone, and why it is just a component of the simulator.

Currency is the record of resource quantity owned by currency holder. Fiat currency is the record of debt quantity. Bitcoin is a chain of numeric attributions -  a component of a simulator that mimics fiat currencies by recording numeric attributions to the blockchain. Hence bitcoin cannot be a currency by definition. It's a component of the Nakamoto simulator.

That's the definition of currency not money. The main characteristic of money is having a fixed value which currencies (like fiat) do NOT have.

There is no simulation in bitcoin. It is real transactions transferring real values between individuals without a third party involved.

#technobabble

Why would anyone want to waste more time on this nonsense?

You fail to understand that the implementation of Bitcoin is not the same as described in the whitepaper. For example, you say it's not backed by anything. The whitepaper does not mention this, but the coins are backed by a corresponding amount of mining hashpower.

Bitcoin mining consumes energy and this energy has value. This value is being transferred into the value of Bitcoin.
If the Bitcoin blockchain was a simulator, then what's the point of wasting so much electricity for such simulation?
We could simply use the altcoin blockchains, which don't use as much electricity as the BTC blockchain or we could create a transaction simulator, which doesn't consume any electricity at all.
This is just another "Bitcoin isn't backed by anything real, so Bitcoin doesn't have value" type of FUD articles. Nothing new here.
The anti-Bitcoiners must come up with new and interesting concepts and ideas, instead of repeating the same old FUD.

Abstract

Economy is a pretty simple concept - it is a system for producing and exchanging resources. Money is also a simple concept - it is a specific type of resource that has features like durability, portability, divisibility, uniformity, and acceptability. In 2008, a person or group under the identity Satoshi Nakamoto, allegedly invented a payment system that exchanges its own  money in the form of electronic coins, generally known as bitcoins. Here, we will use Nakamoto's own definition of coins in order to demonstrate that they invented no such system. Instead, they invented a payment simulator. In this simulator, cryptographically signed numeric attributions are recorded into a distributed database called "blockchain". This mimics the recording of quantity that occurs when resources are produced or exchanged through economic activity. Given that Nakamoto's invention neither produces nor exchanges resources, this makes it a simulator, a Monopoly-style game, and not something that relates to real money or economy.

Here you can read the article: https://btcsim.wordpress.com/