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Topic: Asic devaluating bitcoin - page 2. (Read 2920 times)

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
July 03, 2013, 01:00:07 PM
#9
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh).

You are making the classic mistake in thinking that in crypto coins that the cost of production has anything to do with the market price.

If there was no limit as to how many bitcoins could be mined, you would have a point.   Production would increase, and the flood of additional bitcoins would suppress the exchange rate until mining no longer is lucrative -- and an equilibrium would be reached.  

But with mining, difficulty adjusts and thus no matter how much additional mining capacity comes online, roughly the same amount of bitcoins are produced day after day.

So the amount of mining occurring (hashing capacity) doesn't drive the price, but instead is simply a reaction to price.

Because of how efficient ASIC mining hardware is, the cost of electricity is a trivially low percent of the mining revenue.  This contrasts how with GPUs the cost of electricity does now (... or soon will) exceed the revenue.  

So ASIC has (or will) demolished the profitability when mining using GPUs, but it has little to do with the exchange rate.  (other than, perhaps, miners investing their coins to buy ASIC hardware, and in turn ASIC hardware vendors flooding the market with coins when cashing them out for R&D and manufacturing costs.)

When there is a delta (as there is right now) between price of BTC and cost to produce BTC then every new BTC created is effectively being purchased for less than market value, and as of right now for a fraction of market value. So it would stand to reason that the vast majority will be converted to $$ or other currency immediately upon creation.

It's like insiders caching in options on a normal stock, which drives price down.

This does in fact have a become a market mover to the downside if the overall volume is low enough, which it seems to be. Your statement would be true if the outside interest in BTC overwhelmed the miners influence but it doesn't seem like we are there yet.

It seems to me that other than the recent media fueled bubble, mining is THE primary factor in determining price.

I'm a miner.  I don't sell my btc as soon as they are produced, and in fact, as a US citizen it would be illegal for me to do so without registering with FinCEN as a money transmitter.  It stands to reason you are just making shit up.

http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
Quote
A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
#8
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh).

You are making the classic mistake in thinking that in crypto coins that the cost of production has anything to do with the market price.

If there was no limit as to how many bitcoins could be mined, you would have a point.   Production would increase, and the flood of additional bitcoins would suppress the exchange rate until mining no longer is lucrative -- and an equilibrium would be reached.  

But with mining, difficulty adjusts and thus no matter how much additional mining capacity comes online, roughly the same amount of bitcoins are produced day after day.

So the amount of mining occurring (hashing capacity) doesn't drive the price, but instead is simply a reaction to price.

Because of how efficient ASIC mining hardware is, the cost of electricity is a trivially low percent of the mining revenue.  This contrasts how with GPUs the cost of electricity does now (... or soon will) exceed the revenue.  

So ASIC has (or will) demolished the profitability when mining using GPUs, but it has little to do with the exchange rate.  (other than, perhaps, miners investing their coins to buy ASIC hardware, and in turn ASIC hardware vendors flooding the market with coins when cashing them out for R&D and manufacturing costs.)

When there is a delta (as there is right now) between price of BTC and cost to produce BTC then every new BTC created is effectively being purchased for less than market value, and as of right now for a fraction of market value. So it would stand to reason that the vast majority will be converted to $$ or other currency immediately upon creation.

It's like insiders caching in options on a normal stock, which drives price down.

This does in fact have a become a market mover to the downside if the overall volume is low enough, which it seems to be. Your statement would be true if the outside interest in BTC overwhelmed the miners influence but it doesn't seem like we are there yet.

It seems to me that other than the recent media fueled bubble, mining is THE primary factor in determining price.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
July 03, 2013, 12:35:04 PM
#7
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh).

You are making the classic mistake in thinking that in crypto coins that the cost of production has anything to do with the market price.

If there was no limit as to how many bitcoins could be mined, you would have a point.   Production would increase, and the flood of additional bitcoins would suppress the exchange rate until mining no longer is lucrative -- and an equilibrium would be reached.  

But with mining, difficulty adjusts and thus no matter how much additional mining capacity comes online, roughly the same amount of bitcoins are produced day after day.

So the amount of mining occurring (hashing capacity) doesn't drive the price, but instead is simply a reaction to price.

Because of how efficient ASIC mining hardware is, the cost of electricity is a trivially low percent of the mining revenue.  This contrasts how with GPUs the cost of electricity does now (... or soon will) exceed the revenue.  

So ASIC has (or will) demolished the profitability when mining using GPUs, but it has little to do with the exchange rate.  (other than, perhaps, miners investing their coins to buy ASIC hardware, and in turn ASIC hardware vendors flooding the market with coins when cashing them out for R&D and manufacturing costs.)
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 11:56:59 AM
#6
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh). Can some1 with math skills count this: Compare the  price of btc(not the 250 buble)/electricity price per gh from gpu era (until Feb 2013) to today bitcoin price/electricity price per gh from asic era.

I did that math for the current situation, using specs from Butterfly labs. Can't do historic though since I don't have the data. I came up with a value of $2.00/BC based on current difficulty and cost per GH.

I agree with your assessment by the way. Been thinking about this a lot (since I am new) and it seems inescapable that mining will always regress to cost to (cost of electricity + hardware cost + margin) with electricity being the largest percentage $ wise. There is a huge delta right now in favor of miners but it has to close through either difficulty, price or a combination of both.

There is a bit more to be priced in here:
the risk in buying the hardware and receiving it in time is quite big, there needs to be a big margin for it to be still attractive.
Look at all those scam offers, the BFL disaster and so on.
Using advertised data on promised future hardware doesn't give you good results.

I've actually read some hands on reviews of BFL products that seem to bear out the advertised specs. The current supply situation is only that.. the CURRENT situation. But the fact is ASIC are real and one way or another will saturate the marketplace and they do come with a inherent MW to BH ratio that can be used for calculations.

You can already see the effect of the few that have come online recently and it is just a fact that more.. MANY more will come online and will continue to do so until the price/difficulty delta is closed. I have no idea how long that will take but it WILL happen.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 03, 2013, 11:22:22 AM
#5
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh). Can some1 with math skills count this: Compare the  price of btc(not the 250 buble)/electricity price per gh from gpu era (until Feb 2013) to today bitcoin price/electricity price per gh from asic era.

I did that math for the current situation, using specs from Butterfly labs. Can't do historic though since I don't have the data. I came up with a value of $2.00/BC based on current difficulty and cost per GH.

I agree with your assessment by the way. Been thinking about this a lot (since I am new) and it seems inescapable that mining will always regress to cost to (cost of electricity + hardware cost + margin) with electricity being the largest percentage $ wise. There is a huge delta right now in favor of miners but it has to close through either difficulty, price or a combination of both.

There is a bit more to be priced in here:
the risk in buying the hardware and receiving it in time is quite big, there needs to be a big margin for it to be still attractive.
Look at all those scam offers, the BFL disaster and so on.
Using advertised data on promised future hardware doesn't give you good results.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
July 03, 2013, 11:17:48 AM
#4
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh). Can some1 with math skills count this: Compare the  price of btc(not the 250 buble)/electricity price per gh from gpu era (until Feb 2013) to today bitcoin price/electricity price per gh from asic era.

I did that math for the current situation, using specs from Butterfly labs. Can't do historic though since I don't have the data. I came up with a value of $2.00/BC based on current difficulty and cost per GH.

I agree with your assessment by the way. Been thinking about this a lot (since I am new) and it seems inescapable that mining will always regress to cost to (cost of electricity + hardware cost + margin) with electricity being the largest percentage $ wise. There is a huge delta right now in favor of miners but it has to close through either difficulty, price or a combination of both.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 03, 2013, 10:35:27 AM
#3
If they are too cost-efficient a lot of people will buy them (I guess this does cause the price to go down) -> they will get less Bitcoins than expected in return due to difficult increase and want to sell them higher (price goes up again)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
July 03, 2013, 10:28:19 AM
#2
wtf are you talking about?
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 251
July 03, 2013, 10:09:34 AM
#1
Hello, i think asics are devaluating bitcoin and will continue to do so because they are extremely cost efficient (i mean electricity per gh). Can some1 with math skills count this: Compare the  price of btc(not the 250 buble)/electricity price per gh from gpu era (until Feb 2013) to today bitcoin price/electricity price per gh from asic era.
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