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Artemis3

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Quote from: Farul on March 31, 2019, 08:14:15 AM

Quote from: Artemis3 on March 30, 2019, 08:23:46 AM

Well from my experiments running a full node, i noticed tremendous disk i/o activity during syncing, and significant even when up to date, for that very reason i wouldn't recommend it on non spinning magnetic media (ie. flash based storage) as it would quickly reduce its lifetime. Yes, specially for you raspi users, but a smartphone counts as well. Yes i know better flash devices last longer, do you really think your device has one of those latest generation quality flash storage? Even picking the good ones is difficult in m.2 or ssd factor, who even knows what your phone manufacturer used. And, regardless, it is a fact that each write reduces the lifetime of a flash storage device, you want to minimize to writes or use another type of media.

Better CPU and more RAM i guess is simply a matter of speed. With my slow 2ish mbps link that didn't made much difference anyway.

The Life Expectancy Of A SSD Is Based On Write Cycle
Most Of Bitcoin Node Operation Is Reading(When Verifying Block), Not Writing, Therefore Node Activity Wouldn't Significantly Affect Your Storage Lifetime
However, If You Running A Node With Low RAM(Smartphone/Raspberry Pi/Potato PC), Write Cycle Will Increase, Therefore Shortening Your Strorage Lifetime.
Plenty Of Smartphone Today Have 6-8 GB RAM

Quote from: Pieter Wuille

With low dbcache, the UTXO set is continuously rewritten on disk, at a much faster rate in general than blocks.

The larger you make the dbcache, the fewer disk writes are needed.

#RAMMatters

Smartphone Will Be A Viable Device For Running Node In The Future

Perhaps when the node is in sync, but not while crawling the blockchain, and specially with prune. My HD activity wasn't trivial during the months it took my full indexed node to sync. Of course if you do that in ram (say, using a ram disk) it would lower most of the impact.

Given the specs of current smartphones (going beyond raspis) i have no doubt they can do it. On mine i used 4gb for dbcache (it has 8gb ram).

I'm not saying its not possible, just that you may end lowering your SSD lifetime prematurely by not paying attention, just like letting a swap file there when you default install an os into a SSD without paying attention.

Farul

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Quote from: Artemis3 on March 30, 2019, 08:23:46 AM

Well from my experiments running a full node, i noticed tremendous disk i/o activity during syncing, and significant even when up to date, for that very reason i wouldn't recommend it on non spinning magnetic media (ie. flash based storage) as it would quickly reduce its lifetime. Yes, specially for you raspi users, but a smartphone counts as well. Yes i know better flash devices last longer, do you really think your device has one of those latest generation quality flash storage? Even picking the good ones is difficult in m.2 or ssd factor, who even knows what your phone manufacturer used. And, regardless, it is a fact that each write reduces the lifetime of a flash storage device, you want to minimize to writes or use another type of media.

Better CPU and more RAM i guess is simply a matter of speed. With my slow 2ish mbps link that didn't made much difference anyway.

The Life Expectancy Of A SSD Is Based On Write Cycle
Most Of Bitcoin Node Operation Is Reading(When Verifying Block), Not Writing, Therefore Node Activity Wouldn't Significantly Affect Your Storage Lifetime
However, If You Running A Node With Low RAM(Smartphone/Raspberry Pi/Potato PC), Write Cycle Will Increase, Therefore Shortening Your Strorage Lifetime.
Plenty Of Smartphone Today Have 6-8 GB RAM

Quote from: Pieter Wuille

With low dbcache, the UTXO set is continuously rewritten on disk, at a much faster rate in general than blocks.

The larger you make the dbcache, the fewer disk writes are needed.

#RAMMatters

Smartphone Will Be A Viable Device For Running Node In The Future

Artemis3

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Well from my experiments running a full node, i noticed tremendous disk i/o activity during syncing, and significant even when up to date, for that very reason i wouldn't recommend it on non spinning magnetic media (ie. flash based storage) as it would quickly reduce its lifetime. Yes, specially for you raspi users, but a smartphone counts as well. Yes i know better flash devices last longer, do you really think your device has one of those latest generation quality flash storage? Even picking the good ones is difficult in m.2 or ssd factor, who even knows what your phone manufacturer used. And, regardless, it is a fact that each write reduces the lifetime of a flash storage device, you want to minimize to writes or use another type of media.

Better CPU and more RAM i guess is simply a matter of speed. With my slow 2ish mbps link that didn't made much difference anyway.

Farul

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I agree (when we're talking about mid-end or high-end smartphone), but i doubt smartphone "designed" to run intensive task 24/7. Besides smartphone is expensive when compared with Raspberry Pi unless the used smartphone only intended used to run full nodes.

Latest Low-End Smartphone Can Do It Too (Redmi Note 7,Samsung M20,Realme 3) Each Priced ~150USD
BTW Node Are Easier To Setup Using Android For Common People, This Would Encourage End-User To Run Node (MORE DECENTRALIZATION), It Also Could Be Used For Social Media And Other Non-CPU Intensive Activity(While Running A Node). Keep In Mind That A Node Isn't Required To Be Run For 24/7.

The Purpose Of ABCore (App That Run Bitcoin Node On Android) Is Developed, Is To Encourage More People To Set a Node (Therefore, More Decentralization). Setting Up A Node In A Computer/Laptop Is Pretty Expensive, And Setting Up A Node On Raspberry Is Too Hard For Common User. Smartphone, In The Other Hand Is Cheap To Operate+ Easy Setup

If You Had An Unused Android (Max From 2 Years Ago), You Should Definitely Try This App (Measure The Heat,Post It To Here).

Maybe In The Future There Will Be GreenWallet Integration To This (They Have The Same Developer)

pooya87

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on March 28, 2019, 05:16:01 AM

~
Does it worth running a full node to a $500 to $1000 worth of smartphone, considering the constant communication over the internet, power consumption, risk to damage the hardware?

it would probably be easier to set up a full node on a computer and then connect to that using your phone, that way you are still using the full node but not running it on your phone.

as for the data usage,... you can reduce them too. for example you can reduce the size of the memory pool you have or even reduce the number of transactions other nodes send you by sending them a FeeFilter message or just disable relay to not receive anything, you can also not listen for incoming connections so you don't have to upload anything.
the result would be downloading blocks every ~10 minutes. and that will be about 2 kb/s traffic usage. and verifying about 2000-3000 transactions isn't going to be that CPU intensive either.

HeRetiK

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on March 28, 2019, 05:16:01 AM

Does it worth running a full node to a $500 to $1000 worth of smartphone, considering the constant communication over the internet, power consumption, risk to damage the hardware?

Is it worth it to buy a USD 2,000,- Apple laptop for Facebook and Instagram? Grin

Either way it should be fairly obvious by now that while one could run a full node on a smartphone it's probably not a good idea. Especially given that there are much cheaper options out there that can do the job just as well, if not better.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: pooya87 on March 27, 2019, 03:43:53 PM

Quote from: HeRetiK on March 27, 2019, 02:55:07 PM

Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on March 27, 2019, 01:54:22 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

DON'T, you'll break your smartphone unless you can make sure it won't get too hot.

Will it be possible to run it in the first place by the way?

Why shouldn't it? Apart from the question of whether it's wise to have a smartphone work 24/7, modern smartphones are pretty capable these days as pointed out by Farul.

although running a node is not such an intensive work but it is still a lot more work than a Smart Phone is designed to do. it is basically a 24/7 communication over the internet where you send and receive data. depending on your setting it can be a lot of it too so your phone can overheat. that has the possibility to damage your hardware but also it will definitely lower the lifespan of your battery.

I always considered smartphone to use for lightweight applications. I see kids play games in the phone which damage the battery lifetime for the phone also it damage the hardware too.

Anyway, I think I need to reshape the knowing that we can run a full node in a smartphone :

Does it worth running a full node to a $500 to $1000 worth of smartphone, considering the constant communication over the internet, power consumption, risk to damage the hardware?

pooya87

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Quote from: HeRetiK on March 27, 2019, 02:55:07 PM

Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on March 27, 2019, 01:54:22 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

DON'T, you'll break your smartphone unless you can make sure it won't get too hot.

Will it be possible to run it in the first place by the way?

Why shouldn't it? Apart from the question of whether it's wise to have a smartphone work 24/7, modern smartphones are pretty capable these days as pointed out by Farul.

although running a node is not such an intensive work but it is still a lot more work than a Smart Phone is designed to do. it is basically a 24/7 communication over the internet where you send and receive data. depending on your setting it can be a lot of it too so your phone can overheat. that has the possibility to damage your hardware but also it will definitely lower the lifespan of your battery.

HeRetiK

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on March 27, 2019, 01:54:22 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

DON'T, you'll break your smartphone unless you can make sure it won't get too hot.

Will it be possible to run it in the first place by the way?

Why shouldn't it? Apart from the question of whether it's wise to have a smartphone work 24/7, modern smartphones are pretty capable these days as pointed out by Farul.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 26, 2019, 02:55:19 AM

Good to see these questions. Some of them were unknown to me too. The reading helped. I left you +2 merit.

Have fun.

Quote from: ?? on ??

DON'T, you'll break your smartphone unless you can make sure it won't get too hot.

Will it be possible to run it in the first place by the way?

Farul

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Quote from: ?? on ??

DON'T, you'll break your smartphone unless you can make sure it won't get too hot.

I Think Running A Node Didn't Use 100% Of The CPU, If A Node Can Run On Pi (4 Core-1.4 GHz), It Definitely Can Run On "New" Smartphone With ~50% Of The CPU (Octa-core). That Mean It Doesn't Produce A Huge Amount Of Heat (As Long You Are Not Gaming On That Phone).

Gewinnermorte

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Quote from: HeRetiK on March 26, 2019, 07:02:07 AM

While I wouldn't run a full node on a mobile device, running a full node generally doesn't require much power (eg. if your desktop computer is always on either way or if you run a node on a small dedicated device such as a raspberry pi you most likely won't notice much of a difference in your electricity bill).

I Plan To Run A Pruning Node From A Smartphone(Using ABCore), Is It Worth It?
And BTW How Much Bandwidth Is Used For RUNNING Node?

HeRetiK

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 26, 2019, 02:55:19 AM

3.Did Running Node Is Enegy Intensive(Power Hungry For Battery)?

While I wouldn't run a full node on a mobile device, running a full node generally doesn't require much power (eg. if your desktop computer is always on either way or if you run a node on a small dedicated device such as a raspberry pi you most likely won't notice much of a difference in your electricity bill).

Pmalek

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 26, 2019, 02:55:19 AM

Additional Questions

1.Are There Any Minimum CPU requirement For Running Node?

I don't remember ever reading about a certain CPU requirement for running a node so I assume it will work on most of the CPUs that came out in the last 10-15 years. You need at least 2-4 GB or RAM and plenty of free disk space.

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 26, 2019, 02:55:19 AM

2.Is Prune Node Contributing To The Network?

This was explained by luke-jr here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9ztepo/does_running_a_5gb_prune_node_support_the_network/

Quote

Pruned nodes contribute basically just as much as non-pruned nodes, so long as you use it.

The primary way in which nodes help the network, is by the node operator using it to accept payments, and only honouring those payments after his own node shows the transactions confirm.

Whether the node is listening or not, or archive vs pruned, is irrelevant to this primary benefit. Overall network security depends on a super-majority of economic activity being received in this way, so it is important that as many people as possible do so.

The benefits provided uniquely by listening and archive nodes is a "just need enough" type thing, and (unlike the security aspect just described) can be provided by datacentres. The network has far more of these nodes than it needs already, so the individual contribution of one is basically irrelevant in the big picture. That is, relaying blocks and transactions isn't really important.

Gewinnermorte

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Additional Questions

1.Are There Any Minimum CPU requirement For Running Node?

2.Is Prune Node Contributing To The Network?

3.Did Running Node Is Enegy Intensive(Power Hungry For Battery)?

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

5.Why Did Block 501726 Has Zero Block Reward?

When a miner finds a new block they have to "make" a new transaction and "pay" themselves the reward. The amount of that reward can be from 0 up to the maximum allowed by the block reward based on its height + the total amount of fees of the transactions included in that block. In other words it can also be 0 which is what happened here.

In this case, this block is found by a miner who has been doing "merge mining". What that means is that while the miner works to find a bitcoin block, they can find hashes that satisfy the other altcoin's difficulty and be a valid hash for their block, so they find a block of that altcoin too. In this case the miner was merge mining RSK (rootstock), and to do that you have to add that extra hash you found as a new output in that special transaction (the coinbase tx) with this format: RSKBLOCK:<32 byte hash>. This miner, instead of adding that as a new output, added it as the only output and with a bad format too so he lost the reward (>$48k at current price) of that block he just found.

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Quote from: HeRetiK on March 25, 2019, 09:46:32 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on March 24, 2019, 04:37:17 AM

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

4.When Node Are Verifying A Block, Is it verifying (Checking For Double-Spend) it From The Whole Blockchain? If That Right, Is That Mean The Node Requirement Will Be Higher In The Future?

nodes aren't checking for double spends. (unless their operators add code to do so)

They do implicitly. While nodes don't check the mempool for ongoing double-spend attempts they won't accept blocks that have double-spends in them (ie. blocks that try to spend inputs that have already been spent are invalid).

fair enough.

i was talking about double spend attempts on low/no-confirmation transactions, but you're correct. naturally, full nodes will reject tx that try to re-spend outputs already confirmed as spent.

HeRetiK

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on March 24, 2019, 04:37:17 AM

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

4.When Node Are Verifying A Block, Is it verifying (Checking For Double-Spend) it From The Whole Blockchain? If That Right, Is That Mean The Node Requirement Will Be Higher In The Future?

nodes aren't checking for double spends. (unless their operators add code to do so)

They do implicitly. While nodes don't check the mempool for ongoing double-spend attempts they won't accept blocks that have double-spends in them (ie. blocks that try to spend inputs that have already been spent are invalid).

joniboini

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

5.Why Did Block 501726 Has Zero Block Reward?

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12057

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

1.If There Is Any Hardfork, Who Must Agree? The Miner Or The Nodes?

in a successful hard fork, all nodes must upgrade. if users don't agree, there will be a chain split. so miners can try to hard fork, but if users don't follow, miners will be forced to return to the original chain out of profit motive.

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

2.What Is The Benefit Of Having A Lot Of Full Node(For The Network)?

full nodes force miners to be honest. they do this by enforcing the consensus rules. if no one was validating transactions except miners, miners could violate the rules---for example, they could inflate the supply beyond 21m bitcoins. SPV users would never know.

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

3.Is The Decentralization Depends On Hashrate Spread Or The Nodes Count?

both.

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

4.When Node Are Verifying A Block, Is it verifying (Checking For Double-Spend) it From The Whole Blockchain? If That Right, Is That Mean The Node Requirement Will Be Higher In The Future?

nodes aren't checking for double spends. (unless their operators add code to do so)

yes, full nodes verify the whole blockchain. this is the only way to verify proof of work. requirements to run a full node will continue increasing, but storage space is a minor concern since it's becoming so cheap.

Quote from: Gewinnermorte on March 24, 2019, 02:52:26 AM

5.Why Did Block 501726 Has Zero Block Reward?

i'm really not sure. that's a strange one.....

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