And as far as 'attrition' goes. Lost Bitcoin is economically identical to saved Bitcoin.
Tell that to the person that lost the bitcoin
Topic: Attrition: is there a solution? Does anyone care? (Read 2706 times)
Tell that to the person that lost the bitcoin
OP... What is the smallest Certificate of Deposit available? Do people still use them? You bet they do.
Not getting your point. Can you use a few more words?
The point is, even if there is a large amount of granularity to the value of Bitcoin it would not be fair to consider it useless. At that point it may not be as convenient for daily transactions (like carrying singles and twenties in your pocket), but would be useful for larger transactions and saving (as CD's are but with a much better rate of return).
And as far as 'attrition' goes. Lost Bitcoin is economically identical to saved Bitcoin.
I understand your point now thanks...and agree...would still be useful.
But I can't agree with a saved Bitcoin being identical (to the economic system) as a saved Bitcoin...in so far as the saved Bitcoin always carries with it the possibility of becoming not saved...and in certain situations (like the recent run-up in price of a BTC) it might compel some of those BTC to become 'unsaved'...whereas the lost are simply gone....put another way, the saved bitcoin carries with it the ability to modulate the markets by coming back into circulation....which presumably is what is happening right now with the price coming down a bit.
You don't start generating v.2 blocks until the majority of the nodes will accept them.
A single bitcoin will be worth something like a million dollars before the final digit is worth as much as a penny.
Actually, a single bitcoin would be worth *exactly* $1,000,000 when a satoshi is worth 1 penny.
OP... What is the smallest Certificate of Deposit available? Do people still use them? You bet they do.
Not getting your point. Can you use a few more words?
Each change to the system will be adopted or rejected according to whether it is beneficial or not. Adding digits will (at some day in the future) be worth more than it costs, and when that day comes, it will happen. Other changes, like adding inflation by rigging the generation rules, will never be useful, and so we can consider that rule to be written in stone.
Alright, fair enough...so let's get back to the nuts and bolts of how that will happen exactly...so someone codes a change to the block header as you suggest to allow additional decimal places and ups the revision to '2' from '1'....how does that initially get injected into the block chain...won't the existing network throw it out as invalid? Wouldn't you need over 50% of clients on board immediately in order to make that change?
Each change to the system will be adopted or rejected according to whether it is beneficial or not. Adding digits will (at some day in the future) be worth more than it costs, and when that day comes, it will happen. Other changes, like adding inflation by rigging the generation rules, will never be useful, and so we can consider that rule to be written in stone.
If you really want to know, the block header includes a block version number, currently 1. All we have to do is define a new block using longer words for values, and call it block version 2. Then wait 10 or 20 years until the vast majority of clients have been upgraded.
And yes I really did want to know!! I wouldn't have asked otherwise
thanks for answering. It would be pretty easy to double the precision. And we literally have many decades to plan the change.
If you really want to know, the block header includes a block version number, currently 1. All we have to do is define a new block using longer words for values, and call it block version 2. Then wait 10 or 20 years until the vast majority of clients have been upgraded.
Essentially every one of these threads is started by someone that doesn't understand how deep we can really go with the 8 digits we already have. A single bitcoin will be worth something like a million dollars before the final digit is worth as much as a penny.
If you really want to know, the block header includes a block version number, currently 1. All we have to do is define a new block using longer words for values, and call it block version 2. Then wait 10 or 20 years until the vast majority of clients have been upgraded.
Essentially every one of these threads is started by someone that doesn't understand how deep we can really go with the 8 digits we already have. A single bitcoin will be worth something like a million dollars before the final digit is worth as much as a penny.
No I was fully aware of decimal place technology
I'm not new to the maths. I was just under the wrong impression that the protocol was very resistant to change. So the answer to my initial post is NO no-one cares, because YES there is a solution: Bitcoin Changes. And apprently does so by new client adoption? [Secretely a little terrified by that: I mean over 50% of people in the US did voted for W...twice! (okay, at least once though)
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It would be pretty easy to double the precision. And we literally have many decades to plan the change.
If you really want to know, the block header includes a block version number, currently 1. All we have to do is define a new block using longer words for values, and call it block version 2. Then wait 10 or 20 years until the vast majority of clients have been upgraded.
Essentially every one of these threads is started by someone that doesn't understand how deep we can really go with the 8 digits we already have. A single bitcoin will be worth something like a million dollars before the final digit is worth as much as a penny.
If you really want to know, the block header includes a block version number, currently 1. All we have to do is define a new block using longer words for values, and call it block version 2. Then wait 10 or 20 years until the vast majority of clients have been upgraded.
Essentially every one of these threads is started by someone that doesn't understand how deep we can really go with the 8 digits we already have. A single bitcoin will be worth something like a million dollars before the final digit is worth as much as a penny.
It's not a problem at all: first, bitcoins can be subdivided infinitely, 8 decimal places is just an artifact of the current protocol...if everyone was dealing with ever smaller fractions of bitcoins, it wouldn't be a hard sell to get everyone to agree to upgrade the protocol and shift the decimal point...it would just need to be organized, well tested and planned out far in advance. A lot bitcoin means that you lose one bitcoin of wealth and that wealth transfers to all other holders of bitcoins (in the form of making their bitcoins ever so slightly more valuable due to a now smaller supply). This is a beautiful thing compared with a fiat currency where a lost bill transfers wealth from you to the central bank (and from there to the initial recipients of newly issued fiat currency).
I agree it would be an easy sell but some Q's:
-Who's 'selling' it exactly?
-How does this 'change' process work?
-Has a significant protocol change occurred in the system already? If so, what was it and how did that go? If not, why do we think a protocol change would be smooth?
-Are we all beholden to the code changes made by Gavin?
-What happens when 49% use a new client with a new protocol and 51% of users don't? They cannot exchange with eachother?
It's not a problem at all: first, bitcoins can be subdivided infinitely, 8 decimal places is just an artifact of the current protocol...if everyone was dealing with ever smaller fractions of bitcoins, it wouldn't be a hard sell to get everyone to agree to upgrade the protocol and shift the decimal point...it would just need to be organized, well tested and planned out far in advance. A lot bitcoin means that you lose one bitcoin of wealth and that wealth transfers to all other holders of bitcoins (in the form of making their bitcoins ever so slightly more valuable due to a now smaller supply). This is a beautiful thing compared with a fiat currency where a lost bill transfers wealth from you to the central bank (and from there to the initial recipients of newly issued fiat currency).
I'm still not clear on HOW this type of change would get instituted into the system...if a hallmark of bitcoin is that it is set in stone...then HOW could a change to additional decimal places even be allowed (however trivial of a change it is.)
Nothing is set in stone. If a majority of miners decide to adopt a change, it will happen. Something like adding resolution to the currency would be an easy sell.
Alright good...what are the nuts and bolts of that change...who initiates it? Gavin? Is it a matter of individuals voting by their decision of what client to use?
we know and it doesnt matter. if 2million bitcoins are all of a sudden lost then the price of all the other bitcoins will go up. If needs be more zeros past the decimal can be added.
I would actually suggest a fee to keep coins on an address. to be calculated every X blocks. A SMALL fee (0.0x% of the value). Lets say your address is generated in block goup X (being like 105000 blocks) then starting block-group x+3 at the end 0.0x% of the value is transferred over... to the solver of the block. retty much slowly drain totally inactive addresses.
Whoever has coins avoids it (automatically?) by sending money from the block. Dead addresses slowly loose their value over a lot of time.
Whoever has coins avoids it (automatically?) by sending money from the block. Dead addresses slowly loose their value over a lot of time.
I know we can't change the rules now (can we?) but wouldn't it be a good idea to have say a 5 or 10 year limit on inactivity of any given Bitcoins (ie from the last known transaction time in the block chain.
I'd be pissed if I "went away" for 10.5 years and came back to find my buried Bitcoins worthless.
If you knew that they had to be refreshed though...you wouldn't just leave them for 10 years would you?
Admittedly though, it IS kind of f'd to change the rules midstream like that...earlier adopters who accumulated and (may) have moved on might not catch wind of the change...and yeah..that'd be pretty unfair.
I guess it was more of a comment to shed light on the fact that however great and revolutionary this project is...it is ultimately flawed...I was looking for some insight into the flexibility of bitcoin to overcome these flaws...
And more generally...the whole flexible/inflexible dichotomy here....bitcoins inflexibility is a real source of its strength...but ultimately it could also have pre-written it's demise.
I'm still not clear on HOW this type of change would get instituted into the system...if a hallmark of bitcoin is that it is set in stone...then HOW could a change to additional decimal places even be allowed (however trivial of a change it is.)
Nothing is set in stone. If a majority of miners decide to adopt a change, it will happen. Something like adding resolution to the currency would be an easy sell.
I know we can't change the rules now (can we?) but wouldn't it be a good idea to have say a 5 or 10 year limit on inactivity of any given Bitcoins (ie from the last known transaction time in the block chain.
I'd be pissed if I "went away" for 10.5 years and came back to find my buried Bitcoins worthless.
....and we can no longer split the sub-atomic particles of the remaining few BTC?
that will always be possible, there are programming libraries to handle zillions of digits 
Yes..I was not under the impression that no one thought of a ninth (or higher) decimal.
I'm still not clear on HOW this type of change would get instituted into the system...if a hallmark of bitcoin is that it is set in stone...then HOW could a change to additional decimal places even be allowed (however trivial of a change it is.)
....and we can no longer split the sub-atomic particles of the remaining few BTC?
that will always be possible, there are programming libraries to handle zillions of digits the bigger question is, why you imply that it is a problem. the value of something is not the price tag - the price tag is just what someone is (possibly) willing to pay for it. in reverse, the value of one btc is the "sum" of what it is able to buy you.
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