Australian Government's cash ban | Bitcointalksearch.org

TheQuin

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Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 09:23:15 AM

Yeah it applies to businesses, but I don't think it's limited to payments between business and not consumer>merchant.
At least that's how is in the EU.

That's what I meant, there's no restriction on two individuals exchanging that amount.

Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 09:23:15 AM

I can't go and buy something worth 15 000 euros for example from a shop with cash. It's either plastic or bank transfer.
Of course I doubt that's also the case for Australia but in parts of Eastern Europe there are a lot of "intermediaries" that buy lots of stuff (especially in agricultural products) and they deal only with cash, same with used cars and many more.

Second-hand car dealers were about the only thing I could think of that would fall into this. I'm thinking of the UK, I'm not so familiar as to what happens in Eastern Europe.

Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 09:23:15 AM

Probably the real estate will be hit by this as with this limit there is no way and no excuse for them to deal with any cash whatsoever, and that's one business where tax evasion is rampant.

Real estate is heavily used for laundered money but you can't buy a house with cash. That's all a bit more sophisticated than that. The money is laundered first and then invested in property to park it in the name of an offshore (tax haven) registered company.

Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 09:23:15 AM

It's going to be interesting if they lower this, Italy is at 2999 Euros.

So that's about half what Australia has announced.

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Quote from: stompix on May 12, 2018, 01:20:57 PM

And when LN is coming, what are they going to track?

Are you telling that a bidirectional channel cannot be tracked. Roll Eyes

Quote from: Xester on May 13, 2018, 06:10:52 AM

But the problem is that the said increase in value is caused by the transfer of money launderers, drug lords, terrorist to cryptocurrency. This may boost the market but behind it the dark market will reign in the cryptocurrency market.

How do you think that they will be acquiring the bitcoin, as far as i know it is not produced from thin air, in order to purchase the coin you need to send funds to a exchange and almost all of the exchanges i know are strict with their KYC policies and if anyone is planning to do illegal activity with bitcoin, i would say they are ignorant, leaving a digital trail when you transact is more than enough for the authorities to link your account, take silk road for example. Can you tell me one dark website that accepts bitcoin at this time, you wont find any because it is not anonymous.

About the cap set by the AU government, it is not clear whether the cap is for banking transaction or other remittance services, if it is the former i cannot understand why they cannot track a simple banking transaction and the reason for the cap is just flimsy.

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Quote from: TheQuin on May 13, 2018, 07:48:55 AM

Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 07:42:43 AM

They are not going after the average Joe with this law.

In the quote from DooMAD above it explicitly states it only applies to businesses as well. I can't see it affecting many at all. How many businesses take cash for large payments?

Yeah it applies to businesses, but I don't think it's limited to payments between business and not consumer>merchant.
At least that's how is in the EU.

I can't go and buy something worth 15 000 euros for example from a shop with cash. It's either plastic or bank transfer.
Of course I doubt that's also the case for Australia but in parts of Eastern Europe there are a lot of "intermediaries" that buy lots of stuff (especially in agricultural products) and they deal only with cash, same with used cars and many more.

Probably the real estate will be hit by this as with this limit there is no way and no excuse for them to deal with any cash whatsoever, and that's one business where tax evasion is rampant.

It's going to be interesting if they lower this, Italy is at 2999 Euros.

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Ban on cash would be effective when half of the population is having awareness about digital currencies and their usage. Still ban on cash would rapidly increase the economy in terms of percent and also give more exposure to crypto like btc and others as well. But if this happens in most of the countries then in no time btc will reach heights.

TheQuin

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Quote from: stompix on May 13, 2018, 07:42:43 AM

They are not going after the average Joe with this law.

In the quote from DooMAD above it explicitly states it only applies to businesses as well. I can't see it affecting many at all. How many businesses take cash for large payments?

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Quote from: shalaza on May 13, 2018, 06:52:12 AM

Well,considering the reason cash was banned,i would say this doesn't still bode well for bitcoin in Australia. If they could ban cash because of crimes,catch people avoiding tax etc,then i bet they'll do more than ban bitcoin later because it offers these criminals anonymity more than cash. In my point of view, bitcoin offers way more in terms of protection than cash if you know your way,why then would they leave it when they know the risks involved?
Let us just keep our fingers crossed.

The title is misleading,and you didn't bother do read more as there is no ban on cash, is a limit on payments made via cash. And is not like Australia is the first one imposing limits , the EU is full of them. Not to mention Sweden where you can't pay with cash even if with no laws limiting it.

Quote from: Pursuer on May 13, 2018, 06:03:11 AM

Quote from: stompix on May 12, 2018, 01:20:57 PM

No they can't. Of course there is no bullet proof way of mixing coins but their claims at tracking are exaggerated.

then it is a matter of who they are trying to catch.
if it is to make tax evasion harder and make it impossible for regular users to do it then they won't ban bitcoin because average Joe is not going to use bitcoin anyways and if they do they won't use a mixer.
if they are trying to catch real big tax evaders then banning cash, bitcoin,... is just a dumb move! because those who know how to do it will continue doing it without regards to these bans. they are not using either of these to launder their money and evade taxes,....

They are not going after the average Joe with this law.
How many payments over 10 000$ are you making a month in cash? Grin

The only single purchase I've made over 10 000 euros in the last 2 years was the car I bought at the dealership.

If they would want to go after little guys there are better solutions for this. Leave only 1 dollar bills and coins in circulation.....that is going to be funny

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Actually Australia is one of the country with best anti money laundering practices, they have everything in place to bring every financial transaction in country in records and know from where cash comes and where it goes. Your bank account will get blocked if you are detected making illegal deals or depositing large sum of cash in your bank account. You can pay with cash but its quite unconvinient when you have to make larger payments and most of the business even don't take cash for over $100 transaction and even if they do they will keep your personal ID.

They also have same rule in place for crypto buy/sell so you can't just cashout your bitcoin without coming into radar of government. Therefore I don't think they gonna ban crypto, actually this ban is good for crypto adoption in a country where crypto tech is already praised.

shalaza

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Well,considering the reason cash was banned,i would say this doesn't still bode well for bitcoin in Australia. If they could ban cash because of crimes,catch people avoiding tax etc,then i bet they'll do more than ban bitcoin later because it offers these criminals anonymity more than cash. In my point of view, bitcoin offers way more in terms of protection than cash if you know your way,why then would they leave it when they know the risks involved?
Let us just keep our fingers crossed.

DooMAD

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Quote from: TheQuin on May 13, 2018, 06:14:14 AM

It always funny how governments never think it all the way through. What business that still want to use cash will do is simply split the transactions up into smaller units. If someone pays $25k they'll just put it through the books as $8k, $9k and $8K in three separate transactions.

That could be why they added the caveat "As part of implementation the Government will consult on the detail of this measure". They still need to work out the specifics, including things like the example you gave. I'm pretty sure they'd have penalties for companies deliberately trying to flout the legislation in such a way. I guess we'll have to wait and see if they manage to catch all the potential workarounds.

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Quote from: TheQuin on May 13, 2018, 06:14:14 AM

[...]
It always funny how governments never think it all the way through. What business that still want to use cash will do is simply split the transactions up into smaller units. If someone pays $25k they'll just put it through the books as $8k, $9k and $8K in three separate transactions.

whenever I read about how some government took some actions because of some arbitrary reason the first thing that I think of is that there is some other reason that we don't know and may not know for a long time. they say they did it for preventing crimes such as tax evasion, money laundering and criminal acts but the reality is always something else.

TheQuin

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 13, 2018, 06:04:52 AM

Err... you don't get much more formal than a budget:

Quote

Black Economy Package — introduction of an economy-wide cash payment limit

The Government will introduce a limit of $10,000 for cash payments made to
businesses for goods and services from 1 July 2019. As part of implementation the
Government will consult on the detail of this measure.

Currently, large undocumented cash payments can be used to avoid tax or to launder
money from criminal activity. This measure will require transactions over a threshold
to be made through an electronic payment system or cheque. Transactions with
financial institutions or consumer to consumer non-business transactions will not be
affected. This action was recommended by the Black Economy Taskforce in order to
tackle tax evasion and money laundering.

Source: https://www.budget.gov.au/2018-19/content/bp2/download/bp2_combined.pdf

That's the government's own website. Straight from the horse's mouth.

It always funny how governments never think it all the way through. What business that still want to use cash will do is simply split the transactions up into smaller units. If someone pays $25k they'll just put it through the books as $8k, $9k and $8K in three separate transactions.

Xester

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Quote from: Cryptokobi on May 12, 2018, 12:41:32 PM

Australian Government's cash ban is just the beginning if more country's will do that BTC can go easy to 100K

https://twitter.com/CoinParliament/status/995302105815580673

If the government of Australia will have a cash ban for 10,000$ transactions to combat money laundering from illicit activities then probably bitcoin and some other ccryptocurrency will have a boost in value. But the problem is that the said increase in value is caused by the transfer of money launderers, drug lords, terrorist to cryptocurrency. This may boost the market but behind it the dark market will reign in the cryptocurrency market.

DooMAD

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Quote from: Tankdestroyer on May 13, 2018, 05:49:25 AM

Quote from: DooMAD on May 13, 2018, 05:48:53 AM

Seems to be. Gizmodo and Guardian are reporting it too.

They aren't credible enough IMO. Australia should have a formal announcement about this in order for it to be reliable.

Err... you don't get much more formal than a budget:

Quote

Black Economy Package — introduction of an economy-wide cash payment limit

The Government will introduce a limit of $10,000 for cash payments made to
businesses for goods and services from 1 July 2019. As part of implementation the
Government will consult on the detail of this measure.

Currently, large undocumented cash payments can be used to avoid tax or to launder
money from criminal activity. This measure will require transactions over a threshold
to be made through an electronic payment system or cheque. Transactions with
financial institutions or consumer to consumer non-business transactions will not be
affected. This action was recommended by the Black Economy Taskforce in order to
tackle tax evasion and money laundering.

Source: https://www.budget.gov.au/2018-19/content/bp2/download/bp2_combined.pdf

That's the government's own website. Straight from the horse's mouth.

//EDIT: Also, slightly off-topic, that same document says:

Quote

Delivering Australia’s Digital Future — Blockchain — use with Government payments

The Government will provide $0.7 million in 2018-19 for the Digital Transformation
Agency to investigate areas where blockchain technology could offer the most value
for Government services.

So it seems they aren't oblivious to the potential benefits.

Pursuer

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Quote from: stompix on May 12, 2018, 01:20:57 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: squallw on May 12, 2018, 12:52:00 PM

Did you read about it?
The reason of this is:

“Cash provides an easy, anonymous and largely untraceable mechanism for conducting black economy activity,” the response said.
“Cash payments make it easier to under-report income and avoid tax obligations. This allows businesses transacting in cash to undercut competitors and gain a competitive advantage.”

So this government probably will ban crypto/bitcoin too, because this features like untraceable and anonymous payment is better on cryptos than cash.

Except, Bitcoin and most Cryptocurrency can be traced easily and de-anonymous is easy when user's Bitcoin visit through centralized exchange service. Even mixers don't help much since Blockchain's analyzer such as Chainalysis could trace few mixed Bitcoin just by see transaction pattern.

No they can't. Of course there is no bullet proof way of mixing coins but their claims at tracking are exaggerated.

then it is a matter of who they are trying to catch.
if it is to make tax evasion harder and make it impossible for regular users to do it then they won't ban bitcoin because average Joe is not going to use bitcoin anyways and if they do they won't use a mixer.
if they are trying to catch real big tax evaders then banning cash, bitcoin,... is just a dumb move! because those who know how to do it will continue doing it without regards to these bans. they are not using either of these to launder their money and evade taxes,....

Tankdestroyer

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Quote from: HSRP on May 13, 2018, 05:05:58 AM

Is this a credible news?

This probably is a credible news because when you search at google and go to the news section, there are several sources stating it. Nevertheless, I don't trust them, and there is a chance that they are fabricated with the hope of generating FOMO.

Quote from: DooMAD on May 13, 2018, 05:48:53 AM

Seems to be. Gizmodo and Guardian are reporting it too.

They aren't credible enough IMO. Australia should have a formal announcement about this in order for it to be reliable.

Quote from: squallw on May 12, 2018, 12:52:00 PM

So this government probably will ban crypto/bitcoin too, because this features like untraceable and anonymous payment is better on cryptos than cash.

They probably won't because they can create a crypto of their own, one that is centralized, traceable and deprives users of their privacy(which might function like paypal but will use blockchain tech to process transaction). In order to do that, they need to study it first(which will be the reason why they might not ban it).

DooMAD

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Quote from: HSRP on May 13, 2018, 05:05:58 AM

Is this a credible news?

Seems to be. Gizmodo and Guardian are reporting it too.

It'll be interesting to see at what rate the limit gets more strict over time. How long before it's set to $5000? $2000? It's clearly the prevailing mindset. The "war on cash" is escalating.

I'm less concerned in the effect it has on the "price" of Bitcoin than I am with the adoption rate. I want to see how willing people generally are to submit to increasing surveillance by the banks as cash is gradually deprecated and what number would rather take a step towards the ethos of crypto.

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Is this a credible news? I was surprised to read this information, so maybe the whole of Australia should have internet coverage. so that people can access the BTC, and some old people, some blind technology how they use the BTC to buy and sell.

European Central Bank

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Quote from: stompix on May 12, 2018, 01:20:57 PM

No they can't. Of course there is no bullet proof way of mixing coins but their claims at tracking are exaggerated.
But there are mixers like chipmixer that use pre funded addresses, which makes it a lot harder to trace, add an alts<>BTC transaction and nobody will be able to link you to those coins.
And when LN is coming, what are they going to track?

they could simply ban anything that doesn't have a straightforward paper or blockchain trail. i've no idea how they'd do that and their version would probably be terrible but they're gonna try.

what we need is a closed crypto loop. by that point i'd be really interested to see what they'll try to do as little bubbles of crypto float away from them forever.

stompix

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: squallw on May 12, 2018, 12:52:00 PM

Did you read about it?
The reason of this is:

“Cash provides an easy, anonymous and largely untraceable mechanism for conducting black economy activity,” the response said.
“Cash payments make it easier to under-report income and avoid tax obligations. This allows businesses transacting in cash to undercut competitors and gain a competitive advantage.”

So this government probably will ban crypto/bitcoin too, because this features like untraceable and anonymous payment is better on cryptos than cash.

Except, Bitcoin and most Cryptocurrency can be traced easily and de-anonymous is easy when user's Bitcoin visit through centralized exchange service. Even mixers don't help much since Blockchain's analyzer such as Chainalysis could trace few mixed Bitcoin just by see transaction pattern.

No they can't. Of course there is no bullet proof way of mixing coins but their claims at tracking are exaggerated.
But there are mixers like chipmixer that use pre funded addresses, which makes it a lot harder to trace, add an alts<>BTC transaction and nobody will be able to link you to those coins.
And when LN is coming, what are they going to track?

The problems with the guy that is receiving them, the merchant who is not interested at all in spending time, resources and most important fees to avoid detection. In most cases it's going to be cheaper for him to pay taxes than going though all this adding the risks involved.

Btw, for people reading the topic, the article is here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5721049/Budget-cash-ban-gives-Bitcoin-boost-traders-people-avoid-using-banks-Australia.html
And yeah, it's dailymail.....

drmilind2004

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Amazon has patented a way by which to identify otherwise anonymous bitcoin addresses. More on that stuff here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/74246-amazon-granted-patent-tracking-bitcoin-transactions-selling-data.html

Perhaps, they are pursuing this track so as to remove the 'anonymous, hence illicit' stigma, and enable Bitcoin payments eventually.

Maybe the Aussies will go after the 'truly' anonymous coins like Monero, and Bitcoin will attain some respectability, if it manages its volatility, that is.

Topic: Australian Government's cash ban (Read 284 times)