fail.....
you need to maximize the surface area and create turbulence, this gives you 'mixing' events inside the liquid and increases your cooling
What might work is something like a miniature heatsink fins fixed to the bottom plate with the top plate fitting over them so that there are fins inside your flow channel, that would maximize your surface area.
Heat is absorbed by the bottom plate, into the fins, which then have the water swirling about them.
Topic: AVALON ASIC - QCool element watercooling thread - page 3. (Read 12793 times)
This might be a dumb question, but is such a cooling mechanism necessary for an ASIC? I was under the impression being an ASIC it would somehow be cooler than a GPU. If it is necessary, does that mean current ASIC holders are losing hashing rate, or that their current rigs will be more prone to breaking down? Why wouldn't this kind of thing be standard in the Avalons at shipping time if it were required? (Purely asking for education purposes only, I would love to see such things made if they are in fact helpful.)
ASICs do use quite large amount of power. And this power is turned in to heat.
Generally for semi-coductors driving heat down allows them to run on higher speeds with better stability. Also it does have effect on lifetime. I'm not entirely sure about temperatures current ASICs are running, but lower is better. More stability and longer lifetime.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
This might be a dumb question, but is such a cooling mechanism necessary for an ASIC? I was under the impression being an ASIC it would somehow be cooler than a GPU. If it is necessary, does that mean current ASIC holders are losing hashing rate, or that their current rigs will be more prone to breaking down? Why wouldn't this kind of thing be standard in the Avalons at shipping time if it were required? (Purely asking for education purposes only, I would love to see such things made if they are in fact helpful.)
OP,
The simplest and most efficient design would be parallel channels.
The block can be Alu, dont listen to anyone and think cooper is a must. Use Alu with brass radiator. Its so simple you can make that block by hand.
Keep the cost down.
The simplest and most efficient design would be parallel channels.
The block can be Alu, dont listen to anyone and think cooper is a must. Use Alu with brass radiator. Its so simple you can make that block by hand.
Keep the cost down.
For Avalon heat level, maybe 3 to 4 parallel water channel is OK. With a DDC pump and 240/360 radiator.
Injection molding acetal although the 3d printing would be a cool project. Yes, this could easily be done by any CNC shops but a key part of the design process is minimizing operations and tool changes and simplifying assembly. For example making this from aluminium would require thread cutting operations for the fixations and that's an expensive operation. Alternatively self tapping fixings could be used but they're costly for aluminium, for acetal they're cheap. Same with the sealing, o-rings are almost foolproof, cheap and tolerant to re-assembly but gaskets are expensive, need alining and shouldn't be re-used.
1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.
1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.
Here in Switzerland it is a bit different i guess, there are not many CNC shops out there, you need to have connections to be able to produce, or even get machine time. As the Lancelot Cooler was produced that was indeed the major problem.
Yeah of course the whole cooler would be sealed with a o-ring. Stan you sugesst to work with a 1/4 inlet and outlet? But my concern was the flow rate, simpy more water goes trough a 1/2" then trough 1/4".
Injection molding acetal although the 3d printing would be a cool project. Yes, this could easily be done by any CNC shops but a key part of the design process is minimizing operations and tool changes and simplifying assembly. For example making this from aluminium would require thread cutting operations for the fixations and that's an expensive operation. Alternatively self tapping fixings could be used but they're costly for aluminium, for acetal they're cheap. Same with the sealing, o-rings are almost foolproof, cheap and tolerant to re-assembly but gaskets are expensive, need alining and shouldn't be re-used.
1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.
1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.
Any decent flow rate pump would clear that design of air at max RPM, thats not a problem.
3D printing does NOT create perfect surfaces, and every method has trade offs. The most widely available method (material extrusion) wouldn't print in acetate (not many things will) and would have a major problem being sealed even with a gasket and post processing.
Port size and plate thickness are irelevent, you can screw in from the top. Have a look at most CPU watercooling blocks that run 1/2, they're only about a cm deep.
An o-ring is a type of gasket? We're talking about the same thing though, squidgy thing, squidged.
Quote
This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it
I totaly agree
Quote
Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market
Inlet and outlet is 1/2 standardQuote
Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.
Exactly
Quote
You won't be 3D printing something like this, its not up to scratch. I'm currently doing a lot of work with one of the cutting edge academic departments for additive manufacturing - its not something suited to this. There are only a handful of methods suitable for essentially 'metal printing' which is what you'd require for copper [alluminium is essentially impossible], those machines cost close to 6 figures and are by no means anywhere near 'office friendly'.
This is a really simple job for a CNC, although you could do it yourself on a router as accuracy isn't that important.
This is a really simple job for a CNC, although you could do it yourself on a router as accuracy isn't that important.
Yes CNC is the method of chiose for this. By now titanium 3d printer are not suited for it
But please be aware that its not our intention to produce for the market, rather make it avalable for everyone.
....
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.
Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.
Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.
It does but the biggest issue with an Avalon block atm is volume. If there was high enough volume for injection molding and complex CNC operations then a heavily optimized design would be cost effective but for low volume it has to be simple. Even that design has hidden costs, both the fixation and sealing methods for the plate and the mountings for the block aren't included.
The inlet and outlet port sizes are a limiting factor on that layout, smaller ports and more of them would allow for a thinner plate and better heat distribution and maybe allow copper strips to be used for heat transfer instead of a full sized plate.
This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it. Why exactly are you trying to injection mould copper again?
Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market, for internal and external diameters, and thread dimensions.
Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.
You won't be 3D printing something like this, its not up to scratch. I'm currently doing a lot of work with one of the cutting edge academic departments for additive manufacturing - its not something suited to this. There are only a handful of methods suitable for essentially 'metal printing' which is what you'd require for copper [alluminium is essentially impossible], those machines cost close to 6 figures and are by no means anywhere near 'office friendly'.
This is a really simple job for a CNC, although you could do it yourself on a router as accuracy isn't that important.
....
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.
Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.
Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.
It does but the biggest issue with an Avalon block atm is volume. If there was high enough volume for injection molding and complex CNC operations then a heavily optimized design would be cost effective but for low volume it has to be simple. Even that design has hidden costs, both the fixation and sealing methods for the plate and the mountings for the block aren't included.
The inlet and outlet port sizes are a limiting factor on that layout, smaller ports and more of them would allow for a thinner plate and better heat distribution and maybe allow copper strips to be used for heat transfer instead of a full sized plate.
This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it. Why exactly are you trying to injection mould copper again?
Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market, for internal and external diameters, and thread dimensions.
Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.
Yes, this design is not good. You may be better off having a company that does water blocks already do this like Danger Den, EK, Swiftech etc. I'm sure they would do custom projects. Danger Den I believe is in US and EK in Germany. There are others, but I've had good luck with both of them.
I'd also highly recommend copper/acetal like others mentioned. I'd recommend not going with aluminum at all since many commercial PC radiators are all copper. You will get serious galvanization.
Basically, just look at what they are already doing with PC water cooling.
I'd also highly recommend copper/acetal like others mentioned. I'd recommend not going with aluminum at all since many commercial PC radiators are all copper. You will get serious galvanization.
Basically, just look at what they are already doing with PC water cooling.
I'm guessing that part would be made from something like acetal and an aluminium or copper plate on the front would be used for heat transfer? That design would give the most bang for your buck but aluminium is dangerous stuff for consumer cooling products and the layout would be wasteful for copper. Its on par with most of the off the shelf GPU and CPU cooling products available as most of them put form and material cost over function and the GPU coolers have the same issue of unequal cooling across the board.
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.
Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.
This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.
I have a masters in Mechanical Engineer and 7 years experience in cooling design and that plate is a bit weird. You're going to be losing SO much head pressure and slowing your flow down massively - which is something designed to happen in the radiator, NOT the block.
You want as much fluid ramming through the block as possible as opposed to it slowing down and heating up too much. In the radiator you want it slowed down so it gets as close to ambient as possible.
Take a look at typical GPU flow paths. They have minimal pathing and interference:
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402876_474673442586692_1610541966_n.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/06-10-12/GPUblock_Side.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yIMMU6W0vyjfTM&tbnid=DhAugiqOkm2ZcM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhz&url=http%3A%2F%2Fekwaterblocks.com%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2FVGA-FC.jpg&ei=U7ZaUdOMEqjF0QWkhYH4Aw&psig=AFQjCNHre9qLYOiZ1y0-iV9gJ2tJFWpsBA&ust=1364985811358312
http://www.bestgraphicscard.net/wp-content/uploads/koolance-470-water-block.jpg
You can use riffles or pins like in CPU blocks to increase surface area if your simulations (...I assume you are using CFD...) need more heat transfer, but please dont meander the flow channel.
http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/03/11094211657l.jpg
This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.
Jump to: