Back to $680. So obvious this is a pump. - page 3.

Torque

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Quote from: superresistant on June 01, 2014, 02:36:25 PM

Let's look at the facts :

No bad news for weeks.

China FUD just disappeared overnight? The witch hunt FUD for the real Satoshi disappeared overnight? Bitstamp insolvency fears, Willy, Gox, and all the other bad news gone? And for some reason, you don't wonder why that is? Couldn't possibly be on purpose, by design that all bad news just magically went away, could it?

And you think that's air you're breathing now, Neo? Grin

(full disclaimer: I'm a permabull, but I know exactly how the media works, when, and for what purpose)

jonald_fyookball

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Quote from: MatTheCat on June 01, 2014, 03:54:49 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:46:02 PM

And since few people are looking at those waves
(and since they can be interpreted differently),
people aren't engineering the market that way.

If whales are in fact trying to move the market
(I wouldn't even call that market manipulation), they are using
a much simpler strategy of just trying to create
momentum in favor of their trades.

Perhaps. But if you were sitting on sidelines earlier today with a fair chunk of capital and bullish on Bitcoin. Would you be looking to invest long term at $650, after a 35% rise in less than a week without any meaningful correction, or would you be waiting on 'the correction' to occur before entering market. Corrections are important psychologically for bull markets whether the majority of players are looking at Elliott Waves or not.

Question is, is a 30 minute flash crash sufficient and was $618 the bottom of 'the correction', or does their need to be more correcting/consolidating before sidelines capital feels comfortable to enter the market?

down to $618 is plenty of a correction... you're only going to get so much of a correction during a bull spike anyway.
And you don't necessarily have to wait. Amateur mistake is waiting for the correction that never comes and missing
out on the trend...(and then later chasing it)... better to put on at least a partial position if you see a breakout
is happening.

This is in the context of a larger move over the next few weeks, say...
(Relative to $440, price already moved a lot to $650...so if you missed that move, you just missed it)

MatTheCat

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:46:02 PM

And since few people are looking at those waves
(and since they can be interpreted differently),
people aren't engineering the market that way.

If whales are in fact trying to move the market
(I wouldn't even call that market manipulation), they are using
a much simpler strategy of just trying to create
momentum in favor of their trades.

Perhaps. But if you were sitting on sidelines earlier today with a fair chunk of capital and bullish on Bitcoin. Would you be looking to invest long term at $650, after a 35% rise in less than a week without any meaningful correction, or would you be waiting on 'the correction' to occur before entering market. Corrections are important psychologically for bull markets whether the majority of players are looking at Elliott Waves or not.

Question is, is a 30 minute flash crash sufficient and was $618 the bottom of 'the correction', or does their need to be more correcting/consolidating before sidelines capital feels comfortable to enter the market?

knightcoin

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Stand on the shoulders of giants

Bitcoin got more radical roller coaster though Roll Eyes

Carra23

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Quote from: BittBurger on June 01, 2014, 01:35:25 PM

Disclaimer: Playing devils advocate here. And I hope im dead wrong.

We're back to the peak of the last spike. Right before the convenient fake bad news came out, and the price conveniently crashed. All on FUD.

What bad news is going to come out this coming week to make the price crash again?

------

Genuine adoption and commerce don't make the price go up $250 in a week and a half. That's got to be a pump. Agree or disagree?

I used to argue with people who claimed BTC price was being manipulated.

Then I learned through experience that BOTS, Fake news stories, and whales may be playing around a bit.

We can safely say Bitcoins actual value right now is about $450. Is the rest just large holders making profits?

I wonder what announcement will go live next week to justify a crash, and make it look like "investor confidence was lost".

Again - here's to me being very wrong!

-B-

I do not think it is a conspiracy as such. BTC price will keep bobbing up and down for a few months now.

nottm28

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:36:30 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on June 01, 2014, 03:31:13 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:15:48 PM

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because you're algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

That's simply algorithmic trading and there's nothing dishonest about it. As Bitcoin grows, expect more of it just like algorithmic trading has become the norm in the forex market.

There's also nothing dishonest about digging every last bit of coal out of the ground, sucking up every last drop of oil, or tearing down every tree on the planet for a profit. Doesn't make it right though... But hey sod the future of everything as long as I can increase my $2million to $3million...

jonald_fyookball

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Quote from: MatTheCat on June 01, 2014, 03:38:10 PM

Quote from: BittBurger on June 01, 2014, 01:59:59 PM

It just dropped to $618 and you're still telling me im wrong?

I want to know who the assholes are that are screwing with the price and making bitcoin so volatile, making it lose the respect of the masses for their own financial gain.

-B-

I agree. Been watching the action on the way up and it stinks of shit. Looks to me like someone swishing Bitcoins around in order to engineer BUY signal after BUY signal, and then this crash which coincided with the swaps on Bitfinex (main USD leverage exchange) hitting extortionate rates and a bit of selling pressure.

Probably, Bitcoin has always been like this. So there are two ways of looking at this. There is the 'Fuck them guys' point of view and there is also the point of view that perhaps we are now getting our textbook engineered correction to set us up for Wave (iii) of Wave (III), which as any textbook will tell you, is thee ultimate time to enter market? A textbook correction from a $420-$680 rise which would bring around the conditions for the onset of a wave (iii) of a Wave (III), would be mid to upper $500's. Might take a while to get their but now the sharks at Bitfinex have turned the market psychology on it's head, perhaps there is a good chance that we will get their.

EW is needlessly complicated way to look at market.

And since few people are looking at those waves
(and since they can be interpreted differently),
people aren't engineering the market that way.

If whales are in fact trying to move the market
(I wouldn't even call that market manipulation), they are using
a much simpler strategy of just trying to create
momentum in favor of their trades.

MatTheCat

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Quote from: BittBurger on June 01, 2014, 01:59:59 PM

It just dropped to $618 and you're still telling me im wrong?

I want to know who the assholes are that are screwing with the price and making bitcoin so volatile, making it lose the respect of the masses for their own financial gain.

-B-

I agree. Been watching the action on the way up and it stinks of shit. Looks to me like someone swishing Bitcoins around in order to engineer BUY signal after BUY signal, and then this crash which coincided with the swaps on Bitfinex (main USD leverage exchange) hitting extortionate rates and a bit of selling pressure.

Probably, Bitcoin has always been like this. So there are two ways of looking at this. There is the 'Fuck them guys' point of view and there is also the point of view that perhaps we are now getting our textbook engineered correction to set us up for Wave (iii) of Wave (III), which as any textbook will tell you, is thee ultimate time to enter market? A textbook correction from a $420-$680 rise which would bring around the conditions for the onset of a wave (iii) of a Wave (III), would be mid to upper $500's. Might take a while to get their but now the sharks at Bitfinex have turned the market psychology on it's head, perhaps there is a good chance that we will get their.

jonald_fyookball

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Quote from: nottm28 on June 01, 2014, 03:31:13 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:15:48 PM

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because you're algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

That's simply algorithmic trading and there's nothing dishonest about it. As Bitcoin grows, expect more of it just like algorithmic trading has become the norm in the forex market.

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Wouldn't surprise me if OP got shaken out during this next bull rally over the course of these next two months.

nottm28

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Quote from: haploid23 on June 01, 2014, 03:30:11 PM

Quote from: nottm28 on June 01, 2014, 02:38:10 PM

it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with

So you're mad because you don't have enough money? I'm raging right now because I'm not a billionaire. I'm also pretty pissed off because I didn't win the lottery 3 times in a row.

er babsically, yeah

nottm28

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 03:15:48 PM

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because your algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

haploid23

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Quote from: nottm28 on June 01, 2014, 02:38:10 PM

it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with

So you're mad because you don't have enough money? I'm raging right now because I'm not a billionaire. I'm also pretty pissed off because I didn't win the lottery 3 times in a row.

jonald_fyookball

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where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

nottm28

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 02:54:50 PM

I've made more posts than you here.

Well, some people talk a lot...

franky1

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Quote from: J_Dubbs on June 01, 2014, 01:51:00 PM

$450? Based on what? Your feelings?

I think what you are trying to establish is a firm foundation value. Without future cash flows to discount or a balance sheet you can't really have a firm foundation value. This is a speculative investment, everything is based on supply and demand. BTC is a castle in the air, and we all hope for a greater fool to buy in later and make the price go higher. Plenty of great investments were speculative castles in the air, like MSFT back in the 80s. All this is outlined in Random Walk Down Wall Street, and basically my point here is that nobody has a freaking clue where BTC is headed. It's very likely there is manipulation happening, but that exists in all markets where money is trading hands.

the bases of him saying $450 is true value is based on the fact that the majority of people were refusing to sell any less then that range. meaning they did not see any profit or desire to sell lower. this is the same as anything else the base price that something does not go below for a long period becomes the price that the majority agree's to be the low/true value, where everything else above it is speculation, until another long term settling point is reached.

jonald_fyookball

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Quote from: nottm28 on June 01, 2014, 02:53:35 PM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 02:51:07 PM

Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

Ok have it your way - I see your new here...

I've made more posts than you here. Not that it matters either way.

What evidence do you have that market manipulation is occurring?

nottm28

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2014, 02:51:07 PM

Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

Ok have it your way - I see your new here...

DooMAD

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

Not sure if it's purely a pump, as it's a little volatile for that. Went from $645 down to $620 then back up to $635.

jonald_fyookball

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Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

Topic: Back to $680. So obvious this is a pump. - page 3. (Read 5629 times)