Topic: Ballet's new pre-halving 2020 Bitcoin Block -- You can order now. (Read 1395 times)

these are awesome! wish I could hold on to my BTC long enough to put that much on one lol

I love the concept of it representing an entire block too!

maybe if i get lucky and my solo miners find a block then I can fund one of these

Bobby,

Thanks for the very detailed explanation - I think the block looks great.

I’m happy some sales picked up.

As you mentioned these will only be available until they can’t mine any more full “virgin” 12.5 BTC Block rewards - so it is truly a one of a kind time sensitive awesome collectible.

If you need or want someone to take some good hi res pics id be happy to do that for you - and it would be awesome to hold one of these regardless.

One of my bigger regrets since coming to the collectibles section is not purchasing the 120 Bitcoin block set that was for sale back in 2016 when I was able to.

I wish you the best of luck - and just keep doing what you’re doing - I think it’s great.

Thanks!

Wow... a tremendous response!  After posting the above explanation on the "metal sticker badges", we sold 5 more blocks. Just in 1 day! Could not be happier!

And good news: 

I received the metal badging for Block #01 today.

The application process isn't very complicated, but nonetheless, we'll provide detailed instructions to guide you through the process. With zero experience doing this myself, and after practicing just one on the backside of a REAL Bitcoin wallet, I was then able to properly affix the metal sticker badging on the titanium block #01. Easy.

Yes, after removing the top transparent sticker for the first time, here is indeed some excess adhesive glue. It's a really minute amount, as the glue is really only 0.6 mm in thickness. However, the good news is that this excess glue can easily be removed by stamping the sticky transparent tape on the lettering, to "suck up" all of the excess glue. All was gone after just a few dabs.

The shiny lettering really is nice. I've spoken with my staff in China at length about this, and have seen lots of videos and photos. But tonight, I saw it with my own eyes, and I can tell you it's really nice and professional looking. Hopefully, I can bring some sample blocks to a conference in the near future, to show you all.

And it's sturdy! it just won't rub off or fall off at all. It's true industrial strength adhesive... 3M has always been best at this kind of stuff, and today, they've impressed me again. (I was testing it on the backside of a REAL Bitcoin wallet; so no, I didn't forcibly try to scrub the lettering off of the block. Hahaha...)

Most important point: to the naked eye, you CANNOT see any residual glue or stickiness next to the letterings at all. The whole thing just likes like shiny lettering that's permanently affixed to the block. No complaints at all. However, if you really insist on zooming in with strong magnifying glass or digital camera zoom, then sure, you'll see imperfections (just like on every physical object in life). But the MOST IMPORTANT point is that to the naked eye, I can't see any issues whatsoever. And I've tried looking really really close, even taking out my contact lens, to see even closer. Nada.

(And by the way, if you want to really zoom in with high-powered magnifying glasses or zoom lens, then yes, you'll probably find imperfections. But by then, you'll see imperfections on the rest of the titanium block, as well as on the Ballet QR code sticker, and even the scratch-off. So the shiny lettering issues will be the least of your worries. Just remember, nothing in the physical world is "perfect". Even diamonds have imperfections. So there.

Here are some photos. Caveat: I don't have a professional photo studio at home, so I wasn't able to get good lighting, etc. So these are my best attempts, and yes, they fall short. Hope some buyers out there can take better photos and share with everyone.


This is the raw sheet of the metal sticker badges we will send to all customers. We plan to send 4 copies, so that you have plenty of changes to test the process out and practice. (I only practiced once, and got it done on the next try.)


I practiced on the back of a REAL Bitcoin wallet card. We may include a REAL Bitcoin wallet, so you can practice as well. But any metal surface would work. (Just remember, once the lettering gets stuck on, you most likely WON'T be able to remove it.)


Here's what the test card looks like up close. Very nice finish!


And there! After the practice try, I went straight to the block. Done. (Sorry the lighting is really bad.)


Here's a close-up of the block.


And a final reminder:
For the pre-halving Bitcoin Blocks, we will stop taking orders on April 30th evening, USA Pacific time.

Here's more info and how you can order:
http://block.balletcrypto.com/

Don't miss out!  After the block halving this May, these 12.5+ BTC blocks literally CANNOT be made anymore! Forever...

(We'll open up ordering for the post-halving 6.25+ BTC blocks in June. Stay tuned for that.... Should be a lot more affordable!)

cheers,
Bobby

Alright, let's not beat around the bush:

Let's talk about those controversial "stickers" for the Block Height / Block Reward Value numbers...

It looks like I first need to apologize to myself:
Way back, a few weeks ago, I referred to them as "DIY stickers" to be placed on by the customer after the block is mined.
In hindsight, I should have never referred to them as "stickers" at all. I truly regret doing so.

The "DIY" part scared a lot of people.
And the shiny lettering "stickers" part probably made people even MORE upset, as a "stickers" description conveyed a sense of fragility, temporality, and overall cheapness.

Looking back, my description, comments, and subsequent photographs may have caused a LOT of debates about the quality, causing consternation by potential buyers.

I want to apologize myself first, that I choose the wrong words to describe these. It was clearly my mistake to not have explained it adequately from the beginning, as it set things off on a wrong course. Let's hope this post can correct some of that!

---

Premium Metal Sticker Badges

Now, let me give you all more details, so that you can better assess this before you see it in person.

These "shiny lettering stickers" should have been more appropriately described as "premium metal sticker badges".
They are VERY similar to the name badges on the back of cars. (Maybe even the same!)

Let me show you how they look on a black Tesla Model S:





Yes, it's true: even a premium automaker like Tesla actually uses self-adhesive metal sticker badges on the back of their cars. But don't worry: the adhesives are industrial strength, and cannot casually fall off or be easily removed.

(Even though I don't know the exact vendor model of what Tesla uses, I am guessing that it's very likely the exact same solution we use. See my descriptions below for more details about our what we use.)

By the way, these industrial "badges" are also commonly affixed to all types of consumer goods and electric appliances. If you go look at your electronics and appliances in your home, I'm sure you'll see plenty of examples of "shiny badges" that are held on using industrial-strength adhesives. I found a lot of examples at my home: on my refrigerator, TV, oven, etc.

---

Our solution: Metal nickel alloy lettering + 467MP/200MP adhesives made by 3M

The "shiny lettering" material we use is actually made of real metal. It's a nickel alloy.
The more appropriate name would have been something like "electroforming metal stickers".

So this really is NOT your typical paper or plastics-based sticker coming out of some printing facility.
These are actual nickel alloy metal plates, that's made and processed by advanced machinery. That's why it's shiny on top.  It's not a printing effect!  They are made using a multi-step manufacturing process, involving films and moulds, electroforming, adhesives, cutting, and quality checks.

See this link for a whole slew of examples (lot of famous brands and companies) who use this industrial solution for their products and branding:
https://www.oemsticker.com/metal-labels/metal-stickers/custom-nickel-electroforming-plate-embossed.html

The "adhesive" is an industrial-strength solution made by 3M. The actual model name is 467MP/200MP.
The 467MP is the name of the transfer tape, for industrial application use.
The 200MP is the name of the adhesive. It's only 0.06 mm thickness, yet super strong.

For more information about 3M 467MP/200MP, please see these 2 webpages:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Adhesive-Transfer-Tape-467MP/?N=5002385+3293242532&rt=rud
https://www.anchorpaper.com/3m-adhesive-transfer-tape-467mp

Or, see this online description:



3M™ Adhesive Transfer Tape 467MP with High Performance Acrylic Adhesive 200MP


Here's the actual real metal lettering for Block #2 (made of nickel alloy).

---

Thank you for taking the time to read all of this.
Hope that this additional information can give you more confidence in our solution.

Yes, our process still requires you to physically put these metal stickers on the block. It's actually quite easy, and we will provide detailed instructions and placement guides. (Alternately, you can also choose to not put them on for now, and just keep the set of metal sticker badges in the box, and store it together until later.)

Or, if you come to Las Vegas, please come visit our facility, and I'm happy to have my staff do it for you. And alternately, if you really choose to, we can also laser etch the numbers onto the blocks for you. However, I truly do think that the metal sticker badges look way better than a laser etching.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

thanks,
Bobby

PS - I hope to have the final photos of a completed block, to show you within a few days.  It'll show the full effect of the custom metal sticker badges applied. Stay tuned.

Thank you very much for your helpful answers Bobbyclee!  I am glad to hear about the additional security features that exist on the blocks and cards.  Knowing all of these additional features exist make me more confident in Ballet products.

And I'll address each of your points as well:


"Simple" is subjective. "Difficult to copy" is a matter of degree, and not an absolute yes/no answer.
We also designed this to be attractive. The wallet cards are made of stainless steel, which are readily available, but the block is made of titanium, which isn't exactly easy to source or make into this shape.


Yes, you are correct. We did not choose to use fonts as a means of resisting copying.


Yes, as it is for ALL products. Which secure product are you aware of, where the logo is NOT available on the Internet?


We have an even more advanced tamper-evident sticker, which we call the "Ballet sticker". (see above)
Try and copy that.


Again, EVERYTHING can be copied. It's a matter of time and resources. We've tried hard to prevent simply copying. Can you do better?


Yes of course. Anyone who buys one can easily measure themselves.
Even Channel / Gucci bags, when dimensions aren't posted online, the copycats just go buy one from the store, take it apart, measure it, and go to work to copy it. So what's your point?


Again, see my comments above.
I honestly don't think that by posting photos of the product, that I'm reducing the security or making it easier for people to copy it.


With enough time, everything falls apart.  Will the hologram stickers on Casacius coins fall off over time, in dry or humid storage? We spent a lot of time choosing a very good vendor for this. They use top of the line 3M adhesives. I'll have more to show later.


Let me know if you have any more questions.

thanks,
Bobby

Hi Crypto_Collection,

Thank you for asking these very important questions.

First of all, as all of you must have realized by now, ALL physical things in the world can be copied. If the copying is intentional and authorized, people call them "replicas". When they're done maliciously, they're called "forgeries" and "knock-offs". Almost everything in the world have seen attempts made at copying them, including Gucci handbags, Rolex watches, Picasso paintings, Porsche sports cars, and even Casascius coins.

Again, EVERYTHING can be copied. And with enough time, money and resources, the copies are indistinguishable from the original (except under the expert eye?).

That said, I'm happy to share with you what we at Ballet have done to minimize copying of our products.
(Please note that some of the more advanced security techniques used require physically altering the product.)

A) For both the regular REAL Series wallets and the Bitcoin BLOCK, we have special molds made, so any copies will not be 100% identical. On the REAL Series wallets:
   1. the front design is very special, with raised lettering that's shiny. You can't just easily stamp that out with steel.
   2. the intricate logo on upper left corner. Hard to copy.
   3. the backside has the round "In Crypto We Trust" seal, with embedded black ink. Again, very hard copy properly.

B) We have the tamper evident stickers on top, in place of what people traditionally call hologram stickers. Our achieve the same effect, and is even harder to duplicate than your average hologram stickers. Here are 4 important features on stickers:
   1. They're made of two-layers: the bottom layer (in yellow color) contains the encrypted private keys
   2. They have a reflective gold Ballet "B" logo on the upper right corder. This is embossed onto the sticker as a separate process, and not merely "printed" on.
   3. Under UV light, there's special UV-senstive ink, which will display our Ballet logo on the upper left, and also the name of the primary currency on the right side. (see photos below)
   4. On the QR code itself, there's fragrance added, similar to those "scratch-n-sniff" stickers from the 1980's. So if you use your finger name to scratch the QR code, then you can smell that fragrance. This was done for both branding and security reasons: so that someone cannot cover it up with a fake QR code.
   5. for evidence of tampering, the sticker will leave behind a hexagon pattern once peeled.

C) The passphrase scratch-off is not only tamper evident, it's also hard to copy, due to the micro-font and inks used. Look at one under the a magnifying glass.

D) Further, you can use our app (and website) to perform enhanced digital verification or our wallets and product:
   1. Scratch off the first 4 characters on the passphrase, and you can get a verification from our mobile app that you have the genuine wallet/block. We store the hash of these first few characters in our database, to we can definitively tell when there's a match or error.
   2. If you scratch off the full passphrase, you can do a full BIP38 verification against the confirmation code (which we provide in the app on on our website). This will give you full confidence that the passphrase can indeed decrypt the private key underneath the sticker. With this step, we also decode and provide you with all of the public address for all of the cryptocurrencies we support.
   3. And finally, without actually moving coins on-chain, you can choose to do a full-decryption test by using our open source tools on an offline computer (provided at website: https://www.balletcrypto.org/), and can get 100% confirmation that the private keys and passphrase are correct and can unlock your coins.
For this verification process, please visit https://verify.balletcrypto.com/

I hope the above information is helpful. You've given me an excellent opportunity to showcase our design work. Thank you!

thanks,
Bobby

Anonymousminer,

Yes, good suggestion about the PGP email for provenance. I'll do that for sure.

I'll also show you all our "certificate card" for the Bitcoin Block once it's made.  A few more days..

thanks,
Bobby

1 ) The design is simple. There is no unique texturing or elements that would be difficult to copy on the titanium block or card.  Not changing
2 ) Fonts (typeface) used in the design are all free fonts accessible to anyone with the internet (Avenir, Helvetica, Times New Roman, ect..)  Not changing
3 ) The logo used in the design is available on the internet  Not changing
4 ) There is no holographic "sticker"  There is a tamper resistant 2 layer sticker
5 ) The scratch off and sticker covering the private key are 2D and would be possible to mimic  with enough money
6 ) The exact dimensions of the block are posted online  Not changing
7 ) The layout (front view) is available on this thread  Not changing
8 ) The block # & reward stickers could potentially fall off over time (not a security concern)



IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO COPY!!!!!!!!!  With enough money ANYTHING can be copied technically.

I'm not blindly defending anything.... I'm just making a point as you ask the same question over and over expecting a new magical answer.

The answers are the same.  The links tell you how it's made and the security used.  If you don't think it's secure enough and can be copied.... DON'T BUY ONE!!!

As far as the "real" series Ballet wallets.... they are designed for small amounts of bitcoin... an easy on and off ramp for newbies.  I have used several of these to give people anywhere from $25.00 - $100.00 in bitcoin as gifts.

The "pro" series Ballet wallets are for larger amounts of bitcoin IMO, but you may still not like that C_C.

For you, I'm guessing nothing is secure enough.  I recommend you get some dice..... 64 rolls and make your own private keys and make your own cold storage devices.  Good luck to you.


**for those purchasing a block**  I would ask Bobby to take a few minutes of his personal time to send you a signed PGP message for block provenance for later on down the road.  This may alleviate some secondary market concerns.

Recommended items in the message:
-Bobby Lee/Ballet Crypto direct transfer/sale to "your real name" aka "forum name"
-Block number
-Public address
-Date of the purchase
-Date the block was funded

It seems like you are emotionally invested and blindly defending this product.  The links and your previous comment have nothing to do with the issues I brought up.  You have not answered my question so I guess I'll put it here again...What physical security features (on the exterior of the un-opened block) are present in this product that would make it impossible to copy?

As I stated previously, I have no issue with the key generation. I will list my concerns below so it's not difficult to understand:

1 ) The design is simple. There is no unique texturing or elements that would be difficult to copy on the titanium block or card.
2 ) Fonts (typeface) used in the design are all free fonts accessible to anyone with the internet (Avenir, Helvetica, Times New Roman, ect..)
3 ) The logo used in the design is available on the internet
4 ) There is no holographic "sticker"
5 ) The scratch off and sticker covering the private key are 2D and would be possible to mimic
6 ) The exact dimensions of the block are posted online
7 ) The layout (front view) is available on this thread
8 ) The block # & reward stickers could potentially fall off over time (not a security concern)

My physical security concerns also apply to the Ballet cards.  I'm concerned and giving feedback so these security issues could potentially be addressed.  A product intended to hold a significant amount of BTC should be scrutinized in my opinion.

My apologies guys. I was a bit agitated and made assumptions.

I have met both Bobby Lee and anonymousminer in person both on more than one occasion.  They are not the same person. 

Im not sure why you are implying that anonymousminer and bobbyclee are the same person @omicron1 ?
I've had the pleasure of meeting them both on multiple separate occasions and I can confirm with 100% certainty they are 2 different human beings lol, Its hard to be in 2 places at once at the same dinner table, wouldn’t you think? (yes the steak was delicious, thanks Bobby) 

I’m also not sure what your reason for attacking these highly trusted and respected members here are? Can it possibly be due to your own sales thread here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52979757

Trying to sell some 1oz bars?

If not, then I dont see any reason to continue.

Bobby is a highly trusted and valued member of this forum and the bitcoin community as a whole and anonymousminer is nothing but purely genuine.
I fail to see any reason to continue your attacks as they are not welcome nor warranted here.

Thanks!

This answer will be to the point!!  Yes, your concerns were that it could be faked..... if the security measures pointed out in this thread/on the website are not good enough for you..... don't buy it.  I'm not sure what else you want to hear??   Bobby has answered numerous questions about security of these over and over and on just about every platform.  So like I said, if those answers don't work for you..... simply don't buy it, but asking the same question again and again and maybe in a slightly different way this time is asinine.

edit:
A couple helpful links:
 
https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/2FKG/

https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/advantage/

https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/block/

Had the pleasure of meeting of both these great members of the forum in person.

Not sure what's going on now....  I was attempting to start a discussion on "stickers" and lack of physical security measures on this product in my opinion.  Making my own bitcoin blocks doesn't address my security concerns with this product. Your answer is very subjective and doesn't address anything I brought up.

   Yep...had the great opportunity and pleasure to have had dinner with both at the same time.  

    Confirming they are indeed two seperate beings

Not to derail this thread but you are a complete moron whoever you are!  A simple look into the posts I've started on this forum would prove otherwise.  I'm certain the former CEO of the BTCC Mint/Exchange and now current CEO of Ballet has time to be brokering and selling items that are worth $5-$500 as most of the items I sell are.  There are plenty of respected members on this forum that have seen both Bobby and me.  Please do some homework before you make comments that just make you look stupid. 

.....and while I'm at it, if you don't like the product, don't buy it.  It's that simple.  The way I see it, Bobby gave people a way to own a freshly mined bitcoin block.  Like it or not, it's currently your only option.  Yes, it's different from the BTCC ones.  BTCC was not a US company, hence they were able to do things a bit different.  There are a lot more restrictions as a US based company.  He found a way to make it work, have you??  ....or any of you criticizing for that matter.... what have you brought to the bitcoin collectibles community?? Please make something better..... with superior security.  Innovation is great.... let's see what you come up with. 

Posting with your alt account... Wtf.

I guess easy would be the wrong word, but I meant easy for someone with access to the proper printers / machinery, time and resources.

The "sticker" and scratch off don't seem like they'd be hard for a person to replicate since the design is simple.  The person would need access to the proper printers / machinery. It's a 2D design. Clearly you could verify authenticity if you damage the scratch off or peel the non-holographic sticker.

I didn't know that the blocks were made with a die, which would make it much harder to recreate.  I originally thought they were milled.  Thank you for clarifying. Dies would make it more difficult to replicate

That being said, the exact design (front view) is posted at the top of this thread.  Couldn't that be used to copy design and scale of elements used in the design?

I'm no expert here but just wanted to voice a concern since this is intended to store a lot of BTC.

Edit - fixed formatting