Belarus wants to ban bitcoin P2P transactions

zasad@

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Quote from: Bushdark on July 19, 2023, 04:06:24 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on July 12, 2023, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: Bushdark on July 10, 2023, 04:18:18 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 08:38:32 AM

In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

It is very hard for the government to stop p2p trading even though the rules are very strict, people are still going to find ways to go to trade there Bitcoin and other crypto assets. I still don't know why the government of some countries just choose to cripple crypto trading and investment which is absolutely absurd to me.

The government can very easily ban p2p trading and transfers if it forces banks to act as tax agents. For example, transfers between accounts of individuals who are not entrepreneurs are not more than 500 euros per month. Anything above this amount is subject to a 10-30% tax, which is withheld immediately. If these are transfers between close relatives, then they are not taken into account and it is easy to track them or add an additional field to the transfer.

This will be tto strict because I don't think the government has record of those who are business men and those who are not. This will be too harsh for people that are doing business and transacting money frequently andnit could affect everyone even those that are not P2P traders.

If the government will have to monitor each account to check if they are involved in P2P trades, this will be difficult to analyze unless in a developed country where things are regulated and government have everyone portfolio on whether they are employed or not. If we look at the developing countries where things are nit organized and that can of practise is enforce for the bank to check for a limit amount of transactions to be carry out and if it pass the exact amount, a particular amount of tax will be enforced, it can cause chaos and serious agitation.

In Russia, these restrictions have existed for a long time, but the key point is that this is not a law, but recommendations, and each bank interprets them at will. Those who are engaged in p2p transfers in Russia are constantly faced with this.There are many banks in Russia, unlike Belarus, and it is more difficult to control all this.
https://dzen.ru/a/YT4bltQQnnlEunhH? (RU)
https://www.cbr.ru/StaticHtml/File/117540/20210906_16-mr.pdf (RU original)

Bushdark

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Quote from: zasad@ on July 12, 2023, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: Bushdark on July 10, 2023, 04:18:18 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 08:38:32 AM

In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

It is very hard for the government to stop p2p trading even though the rules are very strict, people are still going to find ways to go to trade there Bitcoin and other crypto assets. I still don't know why the government of some countries just choose to cripple crypto trading and investment which is absolutely absurd to me.

The government can very easily ban p2p trading and transfers if it forces banks to act as tax agents. For example, transfers between accounts of individuals who are not entrepreneurs are not more than 500 euros per month. Anything above this amount is subject to a 10-30% tax, which is withheld immediately. If these are transfers between close relatives, then they are not taken into account and it is easy to track them or add an additional field to the transfer.

This will be tto strict because I don't think the government has record of those who are business men and those who are not. This will be too harsh for people that are doing business and transacting money frequently andnit could affect everyone even those that are not P2P traders.

If the government will have to monitor each account to check if they are involved in P2P trades, this will be difficult to analyze unless in a developed country where things are regulated and government have everyone portfolio on whether they are employed or not. If we look at the developing countries where things are nit organized and that can of practise is enforce for the bank to check for a limit amount of transactions to be carry out and if it pass the exact amount, a particular amount of tax will be enforced, it can cause chaos and serious agitation.

zasad@

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Quote from: Bushdark on July 10, 2023, 04:18:18 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 08:38:32 AM

In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

It is very hard for the government to stop p2p trading even though the rules are very strict, people are still going to find ways to go to trade there Bitcoin and other crypto assets. I still don't know why the government of some countries just choose to cripple crypto trading and investment which is absolutely absurd to me.

The government can very easily ban p2p trading and transfers if it forces banks to act as tax agents. For example, transfers between accounts of individuals who are not entrepreneurs are not more than 500 euros per month. Anything above this amount is subject to a 10-30% tax, which is withheld immediately. If these are transfers between close relatives, then they are not taken into account and it is easy to track them or add an additional field to the transfer.

Bushdark

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Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 08:38:32 AM

In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

It is very hard for the government to stop p2p trading even though the rules are very strict, people are still going to find ways to go to trade there Bitcoin and other crypto assets. I still don't know why the government of some countries just choose to cripple crypto trading and investment which is absolutely absurd to me.

Even there is a firewall that restricts residents from using a particular site or trading online, people can always diversify other methods they can use to trade in the cryptocurrency market and get what they want irrespective of the devices of the government. I will rather relocate from that region if I noticed that the government will never support the existence of cryptocurrency in a particular region. Russia and Balarus has almost the same law and bind the two countries working together like one.

rby

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Brotherhood is love

Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 08:38:32 AM

In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

I can also confirm that most of this cryptocurrency regulations and bans are just on paper. In real life it is not easy to implement. You read of laws that compels crypto owners to declare their crypto, you read the ones that prohibit crypto owners to transact with local banks. I am sure people in such countries still have ways to maneuver and survive.

Regarding Op, true p2p cannot be stopped by the government. The way that the government will achieve that is to disconnect her citizens from WWW.

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 04, 2023, 07:18:08 AM

You can't practically ban P2P protocols. You can try to regulate them in an extent but you can't completely prohibit the use of bitcoin, unless you prohibit the access to the Internet. Therefore, you can only block access if you ban yourself from the WWW.

Google translate but you will get the point:
The Russian authorities and operators once again checked the performance of Russian sites in the context of the country's disconnection from the international Internet.
https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/05/07/2023/64a569439a7947106d06262b

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 04, 2023, 07:18:08 AM

Quote from: stompix on July 03, 2023, 09:33:55 AM

It's called a firing squad and after seeing it in action a few times your survival instincts will actively block you from signing any tx!

Your survival instincts must also take into account your survival apart from your well-being. I'm pretty sure people would use it if needed.

People will use it by default.
Again, I lived in a totalitarian dictatorship that had re-education camps, you know why it stopped?
They run out of "convicts", literally in 10 years after ww2, they killed almost everyone so it wasn't needed anymore.

As I said in numerous posts here, all those bans are easily enforceable, all that it matters is how much the government wants to do it, it is hell-bent on banning it will just execute some as traitors and destabilizers of the regime and you can bet your ass nobody will go on doing it or it will be a "ban" like the one in Nigeria and India where they can't even make their minds on who bans what and enforcement is non-existent.

Remember what happened to Elwar? What matters is how much you piss the government, cross the line and..

Quote from: NotATether on July 04, 2023, 04:48:39 AM

Belarusians can broadcast their transactions using a full node, or with any pushtx-style webpage while connected over a VPN or Tor, to obfuscate the location where the transactions were made. And there's no way for authorities to reliably track the location of the user with this method because all that remains in APIs are a bunch of node IP addresses and (at worst) client IP addresses that have visited a particular webpage, if they decide to take their internet surveillance that far.

Good, now, how do you get your $ after sending the BTC without the government knowing?

Baofeng

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Quote from: promisedtech on July 07, 2023, 10:51:12 AM

Well they have their reason and it's due to High Crypto Crime Rate Linked To P2P Transactions. This is an issue which can be counter by imposing new regulations on the trade , however this should reduce p2p crime in my view

Lol, we can argue about that, it's just saying that you are using crypto with criminal intent?

It's not like that, it's the control that crypto is giving to the people, to the population that government wanted a blanket ban or new regulations. But so far we haven't seen any countries that is successful on that campaign, not even USA.

P2P might be a risk, but as crypto enthusiasts, I think we know how and when we should protect ourselves against those P2P scammers and other criminals.

zasad@

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Quote from: promisedtech on July 07, 2023, 10:51:12 AM

Well they have their reason and it's due to High Crypto Crime Rate Linked To P2P Transactions. This is an issue which can be counter by imposing new regulations on the trade , however this should reduce p2p crime in my view

Are you sure about that? In Belarus, giving your bank card to other people is prohibited. If you receive a transfer in Belarusian rubles to a card, then it is not taxed and there are practically no drop cards. It is in Russia and Ukraine that the business of cashing money from bank cards is very developed. In Europe, it is difficult to get a bank card, but in Russia, banks will send you a card by mail, courier or issue it in the office in 1 hour.

promisedtech

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Well they have their reason and it's due to High Crypto Crime Rate Linked To P2P Transactions. This is an issue which can be counter by imposing new regulations on the trade , however this should reduce p2p crime in my view

royalfestus

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Quote from: zasad@ on July 05, 2023, 09:06:57 AM

Quote from: royalfestus on July 05, 2023, 08:51:13 AM

I genuinely don't wish to appear rebellious or disregard the law, but is it truly possible for authorities to effectively prevent peer-to-peer exchanges, especially those conducted with exchanges located outside the country? Moreover, considering that traders can easily keep their cryptocurrency transactions separate from traditional bank deposits, it seems challenging to regulate such activities effectively.

According to my information, the owners of the exchangers have a registered business, although they do not pay all taxes. Exchangers still fall into fraudulent schemes, and they have to communicate with the police, so they have documents for entrepreneurial activity. This is big business, and fighting it will result in exchangers working through couriers or hiding through Internet security sites, but they won't go out of business.

Clearly, based on your statement, it appears that exchanges are not to blame, but rather the project teams and new startups. It is essential to implement stricter regulations for new startups and establish guidelines for future projects. The country is targeting the wrong individuals in its pursuit.

zasad@

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Quote from: royalfestus on July 05, 2023, 08:51:13 AM

I genuinely don't wish to appear rebellious or disregard the law, but is it truly possible for authorities to effectively prevent peer-to-peer exchanges, especially those conducted with exchanges located outside the country? Moreover, considering that traders can easily keep their cryptocurrency transactions separate from traditional bank deposits, it seems challenging to regulate such activities effectively.

According to my information, the owners of the exchangers have a registered business, although they do not pay all taxes. Exchangers still fall into fraudulent schemes, and they have to communicate with the police, so they have documents for entrepreneurial activity. This is big business, and fighting it will result in exchangers working through couriers or hiding through Internet security sites, but they won't go out of business.

royalfestus

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I genuinely don't wish to appear rebellious or disregard the law, but is it truly possible for authorities to effectively prevent peer-to-peer exchanges, especially those conducted with exchanges located outside the country? Moreover, considering that traders can easily keep their cryptocurrency transactions separate from traditional bank deposits, it seems challenging to regulate such activities effectively.

zasad@

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In Belarus, laws work the same way as in Russia. Laws exist, but people don't try hard to follow them. In Poland, this has been banned for a long time, and when opening an account, banks are forced to sign additional papers that the bank's client will not use his account for cryptocurrency transactions. But even there people find ways out and loopholes in the system.

Synchronice

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Quote from: DaveF on July 03, 2023, 06:31:02 AM

And don't forget the important part....And the government can track it so they can get their tax revenue. It's all about the money. Belarus is a small country with a small budget but a lot of expenses so here is another way to generate funds. Leaving out the political good / bad part of it even now they are asking Wagner mercenaries to train the military while building a large military base. That ain't free. All while more and more people are not doing business there because of their ties to Russia. Now, once again do not want to get political about that but the budget hole has to be filled somehow.

-Dave

Doesn't Russia fill the budget hole? Belarus licks their ass with so much talent and power, I think Russia will not leave them without a big reward. At least they send some billion euros in Dagestan and Chechnya, they pretty much live on Moscow's budget. Logically, Belarus should get way more.

Belarus and Alexander Lukashenko are an Eastern European patented model of North Korea and Kim Jong Un. I wanna bold this!

I think it will be one hell of a problem to make a p2p deposit on Belarus Hi-Tech Park cause you'll have to explain where you get your money from and in case they don't like you or the money is big in value, you may end up in their prisons. Btw wonder, will their exchange have crypto withdraw option?

It's so meaningless to ban p2p transactions, it's like to ban doing pushups at home. I can't understand how such a dumb people manage to get in government.

DudeAtWork420

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Quote from: _act_ on July 03, 2023, 06:20:25 AM

According to where I read it, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Belarus said thee is high crypto crime rate in P2P crypto transactions while exchange bitcoin with each other.

Although what the government has said is nothing different from the truth, meeting and exchanging is a bit risky as you do not know who is who and the next move or plans of your counter part so one needs to be very careful when dealing or engaging in such transactions. On the other hand the government is trying to protect each and everyone member of Belarusian involved in crypto for their own safety.

I feel since the citizens of Belarus do not want to pay tax for crypto transaction hence their indulgence in p2p transactions and there is nothing the government can do about it as long as they can not trace money movement and knowing where it is coming with the reasons such money was paid for so i think it is a waste of time the government thinks of man hunting her citizens.

NotATether

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Quote from: OcTradism on July 04, 2023, 06:36:22 AM

Quote from: Agbe on July 03, 2023, 12:02:20 PM

Wow!! Nice explanation. Thanks. I was thinking of a different dimensions. I was thinking that, the individual p2p transaction is also visible to the government for them to track you down but from your explanation, it is based on exchange platforms which is true of what you said. What surprised me is your last paragraph, I have not thought to that area and if anyone does that, it is very bad. Revealing your trading colleagues information to the government so they can persecute the person. That is a very wicked ack from the highest order.

It is potentially big problem if you have trades with scammers.

If you have trades with good trade partners, trades will be completed smoothly, no problem for both sides and I believe your trade partners will not report you to banks immorally like that.

Oppositely if you have trades with bad trade partners. Because they are scammers, if they fail to scam you and if you win disputes, their accounts get banned, they will react in some weird immoral ways. One of such immoral ways is reporting you to banks and governments. It is one of risks but it is barely seen and sometimes, if your bank account is terminated, frozen, you will not know exact reasons.

Anyone who tries to go full-on crybaby and destroy your (fiat) platforms, can easily be mitigated by hiring an attorney and disputing the termination with the banks or whoever was responsible with a mediator.

Banks have nothing to gain by sticking with the reports of scammers, so they will undo all the damage in order to avoid potentially millions of dollars-worth of litigation.

BlackHatCoiner

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You can't practically ban P2P protocols. You can try to regulate them in an extent but you can't completely prohibit the use of bitcoin, unless you prohibit the access to the Internet. Therefore, you can only block access if you ban yourself from the WWW.

Quote from: stompix on July 03, 2023, 09:33:55 AM

It's called a firing squad and after seeing it in action a few times your survival instincts will actively block you from signing any tx!

Your survival instincts must also take into account your survival apart from your well-being. I'm pretty sure people would use it if needed.

OcTradism

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Quote from: Agbe on July 03, 2023, 12:02:20 PM

Wow!! Nice explanation. Thanks. I was thinking of a different dimensions. I was thinking that, the individual p2p transaction is also visible to the government for them to track you down but from your explanation, it is based on exchange platforms which is true of what you said. What surprised me is your last paragraph, I have not thought to that area and if anyone does that, it is very bad. Revealing your trading colleagues information to the government so they can persecute the person. That is a very wicked ack from the highest order.

It is potentially big problem if you have trades with scammers.

If you have trades with good trade partners, trades will be completed smoothly, no problem for both sides and I believe your trade partners will not report you to banks immorally like that.

Oppositely if you have trades with bad trade partners. Because they are scammers, if they fail to scam you and if you win disputes, their accounts get banned, they will react in some weird immoral ways. One of such immoral ways is reporting you to banks and governments. It is one of risks but it is barely seen and sometimes, if your bank account is terminated, frozen, you will not know exact reasons.

NotATether

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Quote from: witcher_sense on July 03, 2023, 06:40:42 AM

Quote from: NotATether on July 03, 2023, 06:24:22 AM

Bitcoin P2P transactions cannot be banned. There is no mechanism with which to detect that a Bitcoin transaction has been made, let alone detect who has made a transaction[1], since you can broadcast a transaction with a completely different IP address outside of Belarus' authority.

Maybe he wants to ban exchanges or off-ramps or the equivalent.

[1]: Outside of the very obvious and standard blockchain analysis services, but even these require a trail to already have been made that goes through a KYC service.

The idea is not to ban Bitcoin P2P transactions but to deem anyone found participating in such activities a criminal who may be prosecuted and "legally" deprived of their belongings, including cryptocurrency holdings. Authoritarian government merely wants more leverage to control its citizens, which is why it keeps introducing such ridiculous laws that can't be realistically enforced at a large scale, but that can be used against opposition and other "wrong" people. Needless to say, "a high cybercrime rate" is just an excuse to introduce more prohibitions.

Belarusians can broadcast their transactions using a full node, or with any pushtx-style webpage while connected over a VPN or Tor, to obfuscate the location where the transactions were made. And there's no way for authorities to reliably track the location of the user with this method because all that remains in APIs are a bunch of node IP addresses and (at worst) client IP addresses that have visited a particular webpage, if they decide to take their internet surveillance that far.

Not that I think they will, as this seems to be a very incompetent government as far as technology is concerned.

Zoomic

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Quote from: GreatArkansas on July 04, 2023, 04:00:54 AM

Quote from: _act_ on July 03, 2023, 06:20:25 AM

(....)
There is nothing that can stop P2P trading. It can only be reduced.

Exactly, it's like they want to ban Bitcoin.
P2P transactions for me come in a lot of ways, these P2P exchanges what we see on most exchanges are the basics. Because for me, P2P really involves no 3rd party or some middleman, it will direct to buyer and seller which you can't really ban because you can't control these people.

What the government of Belarus can ban is the false p2p that is being done on centralized exchanges. The real p2p which does not require a third party, rather than signing signatures cannot be banned by the government.

Meanwhile, what I perceived that the Government of Belarus want to do is control all the crypto transactions happening in the country in one strong and centralized exchange controlled by them. I think this is not healthy for the cryptocurrency industry.

Topic: Belarus wants to ban bitcoin P2P transactions (Read 512 times)