Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services - page 42.

virtualfaqs

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Quote from: BkkCoins on July 01, 2011, 12:35:04 AM

You mention on your FAQ that the way to sell intangible products is to have the buyer state in the comments "Virtual goods recieved".

But if the buyer later tells Paypal that the product is Bitcoins and that is against there terms, is Paypal going to reverse the money, and then presumably shut down your account for TOS violation?

I'm just wondering if that works for most Virtual Goods but back fires with Bitcoins.

That I don't know for sure. But there's no way to prove the transaction was for BTC or anything else. Also PayPal has not formally made an announcement that BTC is against their Terms of Service. I still feel the currency clause in the ToS applies to normal fiat currency and not BTC. PayPal is only banning big dealers as far as I know. Unless there's other evidence proving otherwise that I missed.

You have the power to not deliver your BTC until you're completely satisfied with your buyer. This can consist of asking for emails confirming the buyer is NOT buying BTC, PayPal comments stating the same thing, opening a dispute and closing it "to show your buyer is satisfied after receiving the virtual goods all of a sudden."

I would worry more about a credit card chargeback than PayPal stopping you.

BkkCoins

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firstbits:1MinerQ

You mention on your FAQ that the way to sell intangible products is to have the buyer state in the comments "Virtual goods recieved".

But if the buyer later tells Paypal that the product is Bitcoins and that is against there terms, is Paypal going to reverse the money, and then presumably shut down your account for TOS violation?

I'm just wondering if that works for most Virtual Goods but back fires with Bitcoins.

virtualfaqs

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Quote from: Jessica on June 30, 2011, 03:59:37 AM

But if they fund it normally, liek just recieving money from people, gifts are not reversible.

This is not correct. I covered this in another post here.
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22255.msg305823#msg305823

Also there's no currently no definite way to tell whether a domestic gift payment was funded by bank account or credit card.

Quote from: mizike29 on June 30, 2011, 07:49:01 PM

What I do if I sell bitcoins through paypal is offer a ZIP drive, thumb drive, or some other inexpensive product with the details of the sale on paypal showing tracking and confirmed delivery so the item can not be disputed. Seems to have gone fine so far.

Doesn't work. There's no way to prove what's on the zip drive. So yes, you may be feel secure now, but there is a way around that system.

mizike29

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What I do if I sell bitcoins through paypal is offer a ZIP drive, thumb drive, or some other inexpensive product with the details of the sale on paypal showing tracking and confirmed delivery so the item can not be disputed. Seems to have gone fine so far.

Jessica

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Quote from: theymos on June 23, 2011, 12:35:46 PM

Quote from: Jessica on June 23, 2011, 04:06:00 AM

If they send you the payment as a gift (there is an option to do so), they CANNOT charge you back / get a refund.

Not true. They can fund their PayPal account with ACH, which is reversible. If they reverse this ACH transfer, PayPal will take back the funds.

Gift payments can also be made directly with a credit card, which is even easier to chargeback.

But if they fund it normally, liek just recieving money from people, gifts are not reversible.

virtualfaqs

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I'm offering a service to help educate users on how to accept PayPal for BTC. Details are in the link.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22255.0

BkkCoins

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firstbits:1MinerQ

I've been using Paypal for 10 years selling items on eBay. There has been overall very rare cases of fraud - I can only recall maybe twice in that time for me.

But the fact Bitcoins are against policy and easy to claim non-receipt makes them untenable.

I'm just wondering if the deal was structured as a purchase of a certificate that is actually mailed out to the buyer would resolve that issue? In this case the seller would mail a paper document with signature required to the buyer. Upon receipt the buyer would email back a serial# and that would release the funds.

In my experience when tracking is documented to Paypal they side with the seller rather than a buyer claiming non-receipt. Officially the sale is for a certificate and not the BTC received. This puts the trust issue in favour of the seller rather than the buyer - who then has to choose if they trust the seller, the same way it is now with physical items.

theymos

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Quote from: Jessica on June 23, 2011, 04:06:00 AM

If they send you the payment as a gift (there is an option to do so), they CANNOT charge you back / get a refund.

Not true. They can fund their PayPal account with ACH, which is reversible. If they reverse this ACH transfer, PayPal will take back the funds.

Gift payments can also be made directly with a credit card, which is even easier to chargeback.

Jessica

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What are you talking about? Tongue

If they send you the payment as a gift (there is an option to do so), they CANNOT charge you back / get a refund. Another way to stop them from charging back is to immediately send the money to another Paypal account, be it a company account, a friend / relative's account, or just a spare one that you have. If the money isn't in the account, they can't charge you back. (;

Garrett Burgwardt

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Quote from: ArXiS on June 18, 2011, 08:36:23 PM

I just get all my clients to send as a donation/gift. You cant dispute either, maybe words of wisdom to newcomers?

Doesn't matter if it's a stolen account. You still get chargebacked.

ArXiS

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I just get all my clients to send as a donation/gift. You cant dispute either, maybe words of wisdom to newcomers?

Jack of Diamonds

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This is where BTC excels.

Once it's paid, it's paid. Nobody gets to lie or manipulate any manager or customer support personnel to 'reverse' a payment since it's impossible.

Sure it has it's risks, but I'd rather take those, than risk being charged back even up to 90/180 days after a transaction happened.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

Whoohoo! it's been Pinned~!

doomy

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Please note, games gifted through Steam can be removed from your account if the payment method used was fraudulent and or the charges were reversed by the card holder.

Sauce.

theymos

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Quote from: RomertL on June 14, 2011, 01:20:31 AM

The chargeback-system seem to be pretty fucked up, but surely you can prove the bitcoin-transaction took place? Will they still reverse the creditcard-payment? Is it true for all services that accepts creditcards, for example Moneybookers too?

They aren't going to care about Bitcoin. They expect you to use the legal system if the chargeback was fraudulent.

Moneybookers transfers can also be charged back.

RomertL

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Money sent through PayPal and any other money transfer service that accepts credit cards can be easily reversed by the sender, even after several weeks. Therefore, you should only accept PayPal in trades with people you trust very highly.

This is why newbies are not likely to sell their PayPal USD for bitcoins successfully.

The chargeback-system seem to be pretty fucked up, but surely you can prove the bitcoin-transaction took place? Will they still reverse the creditcard-payment? Is it true for all services that accepts creditcards, for example Moneybookers too?

BiafraRepublic

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A lot of people tend to trust VirWox

fabianhjr

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Do The Evolution

You might exchange your reversible payment for another like LR here: http://exchangezone.com/

Nachtwind

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good to know..
Are there any ways to increase the reputation?

Garrett Burgwardt

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http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/06/05/The-Paypal-Problem

For a more detailed explanation of why paypal is bad, read that Wink

Topic: Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services - page 42. (Read 974053 times)